Most teachers now use formal language when teaching children about names for body parts like penis or vagina. If only informal language is used (e.g. willy or dick, pussy or female parts) there are too many chances for confusion. Cisgender is the correct opposite to transgender and should be used, even if additional education material has to be provided like a glossary of terms.

Cisgender and transgender have the same problem as terms that heterosexual and homosexual do as being endpoints on a spectrum. What are acceptable terms for people in between these categories?

@guymarriage - if this became a question in the census then maybe this is one you don't answer. We don't all have to agree and you obviously feel very strongly about this but others feel just as strongly about including gender identity.
I'm fine, and not at all insulted, identifying as a cisgender female.

It would be great to get back to how the data on gender identity (if it is collected) would be used. This is something I would be particularly interested in.

Great comment from @katieroche - definitions and classifications of gender are of interest and are part of the work which is underway as mentioned by @alana2 above. The purpose of this engagement as Katie has pointed out above is to discuss the information needs in relation to census content.

I use to always say I was a TS Female, until a friend of mine told me to stoo doing it. When I asked her why, she said because if I was going to keep doing it, she would need to start calling herself a natal female and not just female.
She said I was a female the same as she was.

She did not know of cis until I told her. I agree with @guymarriage, that the majority of non Trans folk I know, have no idea about cis and nor do those who do, like it being used. We as Trans whatever have no right to try and force a label upon them. Hell, we have been objecting to labels being forced upon us.

Most people use common everyday language and not the language of acedemia. Any questions in the statistics paper need to be as uncomplicated as possible and not made so people have to read screeds of preceding expliations. Therefore what is wrong with just male, female and other.
Then if other... a list of the most commonly used options and another 'other' for any that may have been missed.

I dont believe you need a definition of each of the 'others' as am sure all will have an idea of how they choose to define.
Re what is normal? Well there are no two people in the world who are exactly the same so being different is actually normal.
Also people are talking about 'heterosexual' and are clearly confused as that refers to sexuality and not gender identity.

@guymarriage you said yourself in an earlier post that this is something that you are not day to day familiar with - so the fact that it doesn't seem common is unsurprising - because this isn't your common frame of reference. Cis is very common I see it used a lot on social media. And its not just NZ usage - there is no other decent neutral term that encompasses it, and this is used overseas as well.

@alana2 , thanks for your comments re “Gender Identity: Developing a statistical standard”. Alas I didnt know of this or I would have made a submission to it. What Trans/Queer groups were part of this? How was it advertised? A great many TS do not belong to groups or are not involved or represented by them.
Thanks.

@rowanburnettjones, I understand your comment. I see cis used a fair bit but amongst my TS/TG friends but not by my non TS/TG friends. I dont believe it has a high usage amongst non TS/TG or non Queer folk. A circle of friends with who we interact with does not equate to what is common in the wider world. It is becoming more used around the world for sure, but we in our TS/TG/ Q communities see it most frequently used for sure.
But we have no right to force it upon others whom we object to them forcing labels upon us.

Once again you are getting confused - sexuality and gender isnt the same - to call people who fall within the gender binary (cis) straight is to ignore straight trans people. Straight does not equal cis. Yes I get you don't want to be labelled, yes simplify things, but don't reconfuse the issue of sexuality into this.

In answer to Rachel above - The intial public submission invite was posted on the SNZ website in July 2014 (along with a topic/discussion paper). We received numerous submissions from individuals, interest groups and a range of organisations (health, youth, education, business). Please rest assured we have consulted far and wide during the development of this statistical standard.

@guymarriage - you're extremely confused; gender and sexuality are not the same thing, and therefore neither are "gay" and "trans" nor "cis" and "straight". Conflating them is entirely incorrect.

Back to data - we have studies on, as others have mentioned, transgender youth, but these are limited -- while census data is not going to accurately reflect our transgender youth numbers anyway (before I left home, I was not out to my family and filled it out as the person they believed me to be), it would provide us with extremely needed data about transgender adults who are safe to identify as such on the census.

Quite aside from this information being validating and important for people who are newly coming to acknowledge or realize that they are transgender, it will be of huge significance to those of us who are campaigning for better attention to trans healthcare, for one, which is one of the most important ways in which transgender mortality is reduced significantly.

I have worked with hundreds if not thousands of trans youth, and invariably their stories involving advocating for themselves, whether to a GP, their school, or their parents, have been of isolation, of "nobody knows what this is and I feel like the only one", of "there are no standards for my care and they treat me however they like and I have to put up with this". While this is a larger problem than a census can ever solve, having solid numbers to put behind both pushes for broad change and individual efforts to be treated fairly will improve many of our lives drastically.

@guymarriage The actual statistical standard for gathering gender identity data is being developed separately from this as talked about by @alana2. Can you please stop derailing the conversation about the way the data would be used? People are being very patient with you here, despite how dismissive and disrespectful you're being of their identity.

Hi all please remember you agree to the Terms of reference when on this website. This means not engaging in personal attacks, nor making comments that aren’t nice. As I said earlier we would like to focus on the information needs :)

@guymarriage , while I have agreed with some of your comments, I have to agree with others in that you do seem to have a problem re the differance between sexuality and Gender. "...in the perhaps less complicated world that i live in, most of the time gender and sexuality are exactly the same thing." Sorry but in todays world that is a very old fashioned and hurtful position to be stating. Gender Identity and sexuality are not even remotely connected. ie,I am a female (legally and medically). I am attracted to men. Therefore I am heterosexual. What you seem to want to say is that because I am also Trans in someway, was a male and am now attracted to men, that I am a homosexual.
My gender identity has nothing to do with my sexuality. If anything, with what I have experienced, I am actually pansexual to be honest.
It is also unhelpful in anyway to our trying to discuss the ways this data collection can not only better outcomes for Trans/Queer folk but also help non Trans folk understand and help see we are treated fairly.

There seem to be three threads of conversations people are having:

• how data on gender identity would be used
• what terms would be best
• people's personal stories

These are all great threads of discussion. I would be interested in hearing more specifically about the terms that might be used to collect information about gender identity, People have used many terms and said 'oh I would use this but not this' and others have said "oh I would never use that. I use this'. It would be great to hear what the different terms mean to people, and which they identify and don't identify with.

And PLEASE let people have their say. There aren't right or wrong answers. People don't need to agree with each other, and people can have different interpretations and understandings of the same words.

And to answer your question @kabelmanga1 about whether the census forms are available online: yes Census 2018 will be available both online and on paper form

@meganbowradean1 was spot on when they said "by labelling yourself “straight” or “normal”, you’re implicitly labelling heterosexual trans people as “not-straight” and all trans people as “abnormal”".

I label myself as nonbinary in the first instance, any labels beyond that are personal and I don't feel the need to share them in a public forum. But I'm just as normal as the next person. If you're refusing the label "cis" for yourself in favor of something like "normal" than yeah, what you're saying is, trans and non-binary people are /not/ normal. And sure, maybe we're not as well represented in the population as cis people, but that doesn't give you the right to implicitly call us abnormal.

Language is important. Words /mean/ things. And just because a person isn't intimately acquainted with a word, doesn't make it any less of a valid word. I'm not intimately acquainted with plenty of words - a quick flick through the dictionary will produce several words I can't use in a sentence - but that doesn't mean they're not real words. And likewise, just because certain people don't have experience with the word "cis" doesn't mean it isn't a valid word.

Long story short - if we're going to be accepting of people's experiences, we have to be accepting of /everyone's/ experiences, including the ones we might not understand. So if I call someone cis to differentiate between their experience and my own, see it for what it is, please? A simple descriptor. The antonym, as someone else said, to nonbinary.

@LisaAtStats, lets hope everyone can respect the right of others to have different views. I believe everyone has a right to their own views and I have a right to my own. No disrespect to others is intended in the following, merely trying to help answer your last question.
I, like most Transsexuals, believe in the binary of male and female. I accept Intersex is a term but I am not qualified to say where it should sit.
The terms male and female are totally decided by what is between your legs and determines ones sex or gender. Not gender identity.
Under the terms male, female and intersex are various gender identity terms such as the most common being Transsexual, Gender Queer, Cross dresser, etc
The terms Trans, Transgender, Queer refer usually to 'communities', collections of various types of people who are gender variant in some way with their individual choice of labels.
I will not try to put definitions to the ones that I feel arent applicable to myself. That's for others to say.
How ever I will tick 'Female' as I am legally, physically, medically recognised as that.
Alas generally I am thrown under the Transgender umbrella, but the objection to this that I and other Transsexuals have is that Transsexuals are different than most under that umbrella. Most under that umbrella believe in the spectrum. a range of genders or sex between male and female. Transsexuals believe they are either male or female, not somewhere in between.
Queer is a term that many like myself will not put ourselves under as we are, as some would describe us, old fashioned. To us the word 'Queer' means weird, different, unusual, freak etc. We aren't that.
Similarly, Trans to us is a prefix, not a word. I accept through common usage it is used as a word but what does it cover, mean? Transsexual? Transgender? Transvestite? an old radio that uses transistors? car transmission? It is too lose and generalising.
Transsexual means a person whose sex/gender has or is in the process of going from one sex/gender to the other sex/gender. I will tick that.

Hope that helps.

@rachealmcgonigal With all due respect, it would probably be for the best if you spoke only for yourself instead of trying to be the spokesperson for "most trans people", as you put it. I do not mean to invalidate your experience but it is just that - YOUR experience - and that does not make it indicative of any other person's experience.

Furthermore I would venture to suggest that you believe in the gender binary, because you have found a place for yourself in it. Again, your experience is valid, but is not and cannot be indicative of the experiences of any other person. Just because you believe in the gender binary doesn't make it any more true or fitting for those of us who do not fit within it.

Agreeing with @james29 on all points.

The term transsexual has nothing to do with my experience. While I of course respect the wishes of those who want to use that term, I would object to it being used as a word to describe trans experiences in any sweeping way.

Additionally, the fact that many trans people belong within the binary does not necessarily mean they don't believe in non-binary experiences - it just means (as James said) that they've found a place within it. Many binary trans people support and advocate for non-binary rights, as far as I am aware.

The issues of binary trans people and non-binary people are similar but separate - this needs to be taken into consideration with any discussion of gender identity.

Also at the risk of sounding inflammatory, I find the notion that "male and female are totally decided by what is between your legs" incredibly ignorant and offensive. Please note that this is not a personal attack on the person who said it, but rather my response to the words themselves.

That which exists between my legs is responsible solely for the gender I was assigned at birth, as in, the doctor slapped my butt and then took a look and declared "Congratulations James' mother, it's a [baby]".

My gender has shifted, and may continue to shift, independent of and separate to that which exists between my legs. I grew up believing I was the gender I was assigned at birth, because I did not know that I had alternative options. I now know better.

Please, do your best to assimilate what you are hearing: genitalia are not gendered. Gender has nothing to do with those primary sex characteristics which just happen to be immediately apparent to the medical professionals at birth, long before a person has had a chance to become self aware and develop the means to express themselves.

@James and @ C.H.Rose.
Respectfully please re read what I wrote and the several attempts I made that I was not seeking to inflame or offend anyone. I wrote my views, opinions and comments and have no more implied that I speak for others than you and others have also done previously. I have not attacked you.
I have openly acknowledged that there are those who believe in the spectrum or Gender non binary and that they have that right to believe so. I and others also have a right to our beliefs and to express them. I have worked in several areas trying to gain acceptance, funding, recognition for Transgender people, be they Transsexual or believers in the binary or believers in the non binary.
I could easily get drawn into attacking some comments you have made but I decided not to.
Lets face it, I made the comment you choose to be offended...."The terms male and female are totally decided by what is between your legs and determines ones sex or gender".

You stated "That which exists between my legs is responsible solely for the gender I was assigned at birth,"

You seem to be getting angry at me and yet at the same time are agreeing with me.

Everyones sex or gender is decided by what is between the legs at birth.

Ones Gender Identity is different tho and that is the point.

Gender Identity is different than Sex / Gender.
Unless you have had GRS, alas medically your Gender has not shifted or changed but your Gender Identity I am sure has. And good for you.

You said "My gender has shifted, and may continue to shift," Not wishing to offend but reality is it wont unless you have GRS but yes your Gender Identity will.

I nearly flattened my GP when one day he was discussing with a collegue myself. He refered to me, a sex change female as a natal male. Alas reality is my body structure is that of a natal male and not a natal female. He totally knows and accepted me as female in all ways but to discuss what he needed to, he had to refer to me being a natal male.
Once I realised this, I settled and realised also at times we must accept reality and not desire.

My comments and intentions were not to offend you or anyone. If you have taken offence at my comments, I am sorry but there is nothing I can do about it.

Gender /Sex are totally different than Gender Identity.

@chrose I have not used the term or suggested the term Transsexual be used in any sweeping way. Transsexual is a term like Gender Queer, Cross Dresser, Androgenous etc that many choose to identify as. The generalising terms are more Trans, Transgender, Queer as they are umbrella terms that cover far more diverse and varied sectors. Some over lap at times and some dont.

@rachealmcgonigal "I wrote my views, opinions and comments and have no more implied that I speak for others than you and others have also done previously". It's interesting that you say that, when I can point out a number of instances where you have done just that:

• "I, /like most Transsexuals/, believe in the binary of male and female."
• "the objection to this that I /and other Transsexuals/ have "
• "To /us/ the word 'Queer’ means weird, different, unusual, freak etc. /We/ aren’t that."

The issue that you and I seem to find ourselves on opposite sides of is whether or not gender is a binary/whether a gender binary exists. In the interest of "respecting all people", let me break down for you what our opposition means.

You believe there is a gender binary. I do not.
Your stance erases me. My stance does nothing more than not fit with your world view.

And with respect, during our entire back and forth, I have restricted my comments to the things you have said and refrained from pushing my opinions and experiences on your body or your gender, so I will thank you to afford me the same courtesy.

@James you are seeking merely to be provokative and that isnt helpful.
You are more than welcome to believe in the non binary but please dont disrespect my rights, and that of others to believe in the binary. I have said I have spoken and worked for the betterment of both binary believers and non binary believers and yet you wish to attack me because I, and others do believe in the binary. I am happy with those who believe in the non binary but seems you arent happy if I say I believe in the binary.
Just who is seeking to erase who here?

I have mentioned words to the effect 'like many other Transsexuals' just as you and others have spoken generally about/on behalf of the Trans community. No different.

I have stated my opinion and also said I know of many who feel/believe as I do. Thats what i understand this blog to be for. Not the attacks on someone who has a differing view to your own.
Quote from yourself...

"during our entire back and forth, I have restricted my comments to the things you have said and refrained from pushing my opinions and experiences on your body or your gender,"

So please feel free to express your opinions and allow me the right to do so also.

Not once have I attacked you personally. My issue is, and always has been, with the things you are saying, so let us call a spade a spade here and not attribute me with behavior I do not feel I have displayed.

You ask, "Just who is seeking to erase who here?" Again, let me break down for you what I am hearing here. When you insist on a gender binary, you are /erasing my entire identity/. When you insist that male and female are the only options, you are telling me that I do not exist.

When I insist there is not a gender binary, the only harm that befalls you is that someone disagreed with you on the internet. Your identity is not erased. You are free to be who you are regardless, because both male and female are contained within my world view. My identity is not contained within your world view, which is why I find it objectionable.

To sum up: We have differing opinions, yes, but whereas mine allows for you to be exactly who you are, yours for some reason does not allow for me to be who I am. Do you see the disparity there? So to answer "just who is erasing who?", YOU are erasing ME. I am merely disagreeing with your insistence on erasing me.

I think it would behoove both of us to disengage at this point because there is a limit to how polite and respectful I can be towards people who refuse to afford me the same courtesy. Have a nice day.

@rachealmcgonigal what you seem not to realise is that by insisting that you believe only in the gender binary, you are telling all non-binary people that their identities do not exist or are irrelevant. Can you understand how this might be upsetting? It is the same as someone saying you have no right to be a woman. That is why things are getting heated - because you are attacking something vital and intrinsic to the identity and well-being of many people participating in this thread.

I don't want this to become inflammatory. Please stop saying things that imply people like myself do not exist - it is incredibly hurtful.

Whoa up you two @chrose @james29

Take a step back and look at yourselves and what you are trying to do. You are not expressing your thoughts and comments but trying to defend against my thoughts and comments.

Despite my saying repeatedly that those who believe in the non binary gender spectrum, are welcome to believe as they wish several times, I am attacked by you both for expressing my views. You are trying to shut my opinion down.

@james29 "When you insist on a gender binary, you are /erasing my entire identity/." No I am not at all. I have stated you are entitled to your views and to express them. However you are not prepared to allow me to express or have mine.

I am sorry feel that way but it is entirely up to you as to how you wish to take my comments. I dont control you and nor seek to control you. In fact I have said you are welcome to express your opinions.
As much as you can claim why cant I feel and insist on this....
"When you insist on a gender non binary, you are /erasing my entire identity/."

Whats the differance please?
Do I get offended and up tight and attack you when you insist that gender is not binary, attempting to erase my believe in gender being binary?

Tell when Transsexuals talk or are talked about, it is the only sector who use 'mtf' and 'ftm'. Ever wondered why?
Because they believe in the binary and not the non binary.

You are welcome to your opinion and to express it but You need to get back onto what this blog is for and away from what ever personal dislikes of myself you may have, especially as, while I dont believe I know you, you appear to have judged me.

If you cant contain yourself to the topics and control yourself from getting "upset", then I'd suggest dont enter into the discussion.

Attacks are not welcome, I am sure.

@rachealmcgonigal @james29 @chrose Statistics NZ appreciates you all as individuals and the passion and enthusiasm you bring to this discussion. Please respect each others points of view. We have a terms of reference and if we see any further disrespectful interaction we will remove it. At this point it is worth reminding people about the purpose of this engagement which is for people to discuss the important issues provided in the introduction of this topic in a safe environment.

@StatisticsNZmoderator , Agreed and thank you.

@StatisticsNZmoderator My apologies.

@rachealmcgonigal
We've done enough arguing. You do not want to change your way of thinking, and I do not want to concede that you have the right to an opinion that erases my identity, so let me just leave you with this.

Intent isn't magical, and let me explain to you why not. Imagine I'm walking down the street carrying a heavy load that obscures my vision somewhat, and that causes me to bump into you so you fall down and skin your knee. Now, clearly I didn't set out to push you down and cause you to skin your knee - it was an accident. I didn't /intend/ for you to be hurt. But nonetheless, hurt you are. Your knee is skinned. My intent is irrelevant to the fact that you have been hurt.

Maybe you didn't intend to bump into me (offend me with your words) but your intention is irrelevant. I have been bumped into, and skinned my knee (I am sorely offended by your insistence that my identity does not exist). Perhaps, instead of declaring loudly that you didn't mean to cause this accident, you might consider simply acknowledging that the accident took place, and apologizing for my pain - because whether you /intended/ to cause it or not, cause it you did.

@StatisticsNZmoderator .
Please.

We observe that the conversation has shifted in tone for the better and we acknowledge what both people bring to the conversation. We encourage some time out for some mindful reflection on each persons experience.

@StatisticsNZmoderator
Sorry but you allow him to appologise and then leave standing his next attack upon me. Where he is continuing to attack my believe and not expressing anything to the thread header.

The fact he is offended by my thoughts and feels I am erazing his identity is entirely up to him. I have more than repeated and demonstrated that he is welcome to have his opinon and express it, even if it negates mine.
I have endured his attacks upon me because he feels I have erazed his identity. I havent.

Please act as a moderator and remove this post and the 3 above and lets get back to what Statistics supposedly are seeking.

We all should have a right to express our opinions. If someone gets upset or feels they are having their identity erazed here, that is not reality. This is a blog to try to understand the make up of all or would you rather I go and you only get a part of the conversation and opinions?
Do you only want an input from a select sector of the Communities out there.
It is a good conversation if people can fairly contribute and dont get into personal attacks.

Please remove the offending posts.

Sorry, but... you can't have it both ways, @rachealmcgonigal . Either "We should all have a right to express our opinions" - in which case my posts are just as valid as your own - or we shouldn't, in which case... why exactly is your opinion on this issue and your perceived offense any more grievous than my own?

I don't want to fight. I just want to live and be allowed to live.

I echo concerns raised by @james29 and @chrose over contributions by @rachealmcgonigal skewing the discussion. Removing posts affirming the diversity in society could have the effect of only allowing one side of a discussion on a gender binary.

One of the reasons the Census should include questions on gender identity would be to provide a base line for clarifying what proportion of the population identify as other than cisgender (agree with the gender they were identified with at birth), and this may help with service planning. Some people may seek medical interventions to transition to their identified gender. Some intersex people may seek assistance to repair damage caused by doctors seeking to change their original gender identity. I understand that involuntary gender assignment procedures are still performed on intersex infants.

Some people may seek other changes e.g. gender changes on documents of identity. Better Government understanding of gender diversity within New Zealand may help government agencies plan for future service needs. Understanding diversity of gender identity is a first step. Gaining additional information on services sought would be a second one.

A valuable resource for this work is the Report of the Human Rights Commission's Inquiry into Discrimination Experienced by Transgender People
http://www.hrc.co.nz/your-rights/social-equality/our-work/inquiry-discrimination-experienced-transgender-people/ The Commission heard from a range of people including transgender, transsexual, and intersex people on their experiences and made recommendations for future action. Some action like improvements to access to documents of identity has occurred. It would be helpful to use the Census to gain an indication of progress since the inquiry.

I am not trying to invalidate your opinion @james29 .
I have been trying to get you to express it rather than attack mine and my right to express it.
We were asked to stop, I did but you appologised and then took another swipe at me and my beliefs. Still never expressed your own.
Its clear you believe in the non-binary. I have expressed several times that that is ok. I am not invalidating your opinion or gender identity.
But you keep wanting to accuse me that I am. Refusing to listen to what I wrote.
You are welcome to express your opinions and beliefs. You are welcome to have them.

@kayscarlet , I am not suggesting posts affirming the diversity of the community be removed but just those where the moderators instructions were rudely ignored and the personal attack continued upon myself.
I support your second post.

@rachealmcgonigal All right, I'll bite. You ask for my opinions and beliefs as if I haven't been stating them ad nauseum for the entirety of my time in this conversation. My opinions and beliefs, again, are that the gender binary is a fallacy and that people who believe in and reinforce the gender binary are being dismissive towards people like me at best, and erasing us at worst.

The gender binary, so we're all clear what I'm railing against, is the notion that only two genders exist: male and female. BI-nary, bi = two, yes? Well, that is wrong. Male and female are NOT the only genders. And I can say that with absolute belief because I am neither male nor female. So if gender /were/ binary, I would be one or the other. However, magically, I am not. My very existence is proof of the fallacy of the gender binary. I don't just BELIEVE in the non-binary. I AM the non-binary. So, in that case, I guess the non-binary isn't a belief. It's a fact.

It's interesting to me that you see my comments as attacks on your person, when they are and have always been aimed at the things you've said, not you as a person. In fact I have been very careful NOT to attack you as a person because my natural inclination is to be very antagonistic toward people who are unabashedly offensive, as you have been to me, but I did not want to be excluded from what I think is a very important debate. My previous comment was a simple analogy designed to show you that I understood you had not intended to be offensive, but that I had been offended regardless. At that point it becomes your choice whether you continue to defend your behavior, or do the adult thing and apologize that your actions, however they may have been intended, have caused another human being distress.

You have continually expressed the opinion that I am "attacking you". That is not the case - because I do not think the moderators of this thread are stupid, and if I were actually attacking you as a person they would not have allowed that to stand. This is a DEBATE, Racheal, and the very point of a debate is for the two sides to express differing opinions and then to back them up with evidence, whether scholarly or anecdotal. You have not backed up your assertion that gender is binary. I, however, have backed up my assertion that gender is NOT binary - because I myself am neither male or female. Do you see how that logic works? Because I would hate for you to miss the calm and reasoned debate in the midst of crying "attack" every time I post something.

You are seeing attacks where there are none. But what you are either failing or refusing to acknowledge, is that your comments have made myself and others feel as if you see us as less than human. By your estimation, our gender does not exist. We are impossible, because we do not fit neatly into your binary boxes. THAT is why this section is so important in the census: because too many people exist who will dogmatically stick to the antiquated notion of a binary gender and refuse point blank to listen to those who have experienced something other than your narrow world view.

Mods, I apologize if at any point my tone or content has become inappropriate for this thread, but I cannot and will not stand by and let someone deny my very existence and then claim they are being attacked when I dare to assert myself. This is a free and democratic nation and I have the right to be heard.

@james29 ,

Well done. I have appologised to you before if I have said anything you have taken offence at. That has never been my intention. However if you choose to take offence at something I said, well sorry but thats you and how you take it. Nothing I can do about it. I tried to go out of my way, politely, at the start and express my opinons and beliefs, which is what this blog is for. It is not as you claimed by you a place for DEBATE.

As I have repeatedly said, you are entitled to your beliefs and opinions and to express them. However so am I.
However while I was quite willing and showed I was happy for you and others to express your opinions, you mainly, and others have taken to attacking me for my expressing my beliefs. Taking supposed offence at my beliefs and claiming they have negated your Gender. Which they havent in reality as you are still the gender you are and the gender identity you wish to be. I havent altered that at all as you claim.

You said ..."This is a free and democratic nation and I have the right to be heard. "

You do.... but so you must realise do I and others.
Just because we dont think the same or agree, doesnt give either of us the right to suppress the other or to attack personally.
I could easily be making the same claims against you, that by claiming the non gender binary way is the truth and how it is, ignoring my believe, you are negating me. You are hurting myself and others like me. Shrinks dealing with Transsexuals who are happy who they are, know they are male or female, just with the wrong body parts, are being told 'well perhaps you are somewhere in between and dont need hormones or GRS'. Being denied because others are professing that gender identity is a spectrum and not binary as they believe.
That is hurting Transsexuals and I have seen it happen.

But no, I am not attacking you on your belief in the non binary gender identity. I am happy for you as you wish to identify but you must allow others to speak their opinons and stop enforcing the non binary gender way, the spectrum is the only true way and those who believe in the binary are wrong and there is no such way.

Allow other to express their voice and concentrate on expressing yours. Hopefully with less personal attack on myself.
Good luck in your journey

Stop enforcing upon others your beliefs. I have never and am not enforcing my beliefs upon you.

You do realize that by acknowledging that gender is not binary, you lose nothing, right? Those who deny the gender binary are saying that ALL genders are valid - including male and female. Those who deny the gender binary are not excluding, dismissing, or erasing anyone. Those who insist upon the gender binary are.

And now to get back on track and away from... whatever the hell this has been, again, I assert that conversations such as this are exactly why a section on gender identity needs to be included in the census. Awareness needs to be raised so that we as a country and a society can move forward while including all people, not just those who fit neatly into one of two boxes.

When I came out at work, I had to sit through a series of excruciatingly uncomfortable meetings wherein I had to explain these things slowly and patiently to my boss. He, at least, listened, though to begin with he didn't understand. The difference is, he was willing to listen to the experience of someone other than himself.

It is simply not good enough to shy away from including gender identity in the census because of the assumption that cisgender people will find it too confusing or won't be able to understand. Opening these lines of dialogue are the only way people WILL start to understand. How can we expect them to, if we never discuss it with them? This matter needs to be brought out of the shadows and into the public eye, because then and only then will it stop being a matter of debate and start being a fact of life. Kind of like how, once upon a time, the notion that women should be allowed to vote was unthinkable and there were people dead set against it. We moved on, as a society, and now women are free to get their vote on.

So lets get back on track...

Q?a: Gender Identity:
How do you identify?
Male
Female
Intersex
Other

If Other, please go to b..

B/ If you identified as 'other' in a above how else would you identify? (pick all applicable)

Cross dresser?
Trans?
Androgynous?
Gender Queer?
Transgender?
Queer?
Transsexual?
If none applicable or something else, please write clearly...........................

1. Cross dresser isn't a gender, it's a hobby.
2. Intersex has to do with genitals, which have nothing to do with gender identity, which is what we're discussing here.

But it's not an awful start, at least. A jumping off point.

Is there anyway for us to speak to moderators directly? I looked but couldn't find anything, potentially I am just being dense.

@James, you are negating Cross Dressers and Intersex.
Suggest you read the HRC report.
You are labeling Cross Dresser as a hobby? Well you sure arent judging others are you? You are being accepting of how they choose to define arent you? Not.
A heck of alot of Intersex wouldnt be happy with your judgement of them.
I, at least am not trying to label or speak for them. As you are.
Do you think I just breezed through the last 10years? We all go through alot of hardships. Good on your boss but I have listened to the arguments for ten years and I am happy for others to have their beliefs, you included.

You keep professing I have negated you but have not shown how at all other than you FEEL I have. I have given you an actual account of how I have seen the spectrum impact negatively upon those who believe in the binary. Where it cost one Transsexual her life because the shrinks put her on hold. 'Well you might just be somewhere on the spectrum' and she was placed on hold.

Sorry but it isnt just so because you say it is so.
You are welcome to have your view and opinion but you have not right to force your view upon others. Especially when it can actually do them real serious harm.

@chrose Why? Why not join the conversation or do you want to have a word behind the scenes to try to influence the moderator? To cut opposing views from being expressed? Alas too often this is what a few of the Trans community have done in the past and Transsexuals have been denied a voice and forgotten. So they have walked away and arent involved or represented in any numbers in any groups.

Hence we need these questions to show how many are out there and how many are not being represented.

Joint the conversation.

@rachealmcgonigal you sound like a real bully in your last comment. If @chrose wants to talk to a moderator that is their right and who are you to decide who can and can not talk to a moderator should they want to? First you wanted to shut me down because you didn't like what I was saying and now you're policing the actions of other people?

Now I want to speak to a moderator.

Oh come off it @james29 , step into reality.
I stated my views/opinons.
You took exception to my expressing them and my views and opinions and attacked them.
You relentlessly persisted.
I apologised if I offended.
You continued the attack.
The Mod stepped in and you continued on with your attack.
I tried to get the thread back on track.
You keep up the attack trying to enforce one line, stiffling others.

I have done nothing but encourage you to express your opinions. I never attacked your opinions or views until you had persisted continually. Where by I gave you actual real time personal experience how I have seen the spectrum impact negative upon Transsexuals.
You ignored this as you have ignored other points I have had that were valid.

CHRose and I have had past dealings and I know how they work, like others in the TG or Trans or Queer community who go behind the back and have a second discussion behind backs and limit input from those who have a right to have a say as well.

I have never tried to stiffle your rights to inputs or anyones. Only encouraged that input.

I give up. I quit. You can /have/ this discussion, @rachealmcgonigal and I hope you'll be /very/ happy with it.

Mods, take note. I am now leaving this conversation because @rachealmcgonigal has made me feel invalidated, dismissed and unwelcome. I cannot in good conscience stay part of a thread where she is allowed to hold court. For my own mental health I am disengaging from anything having to do with her. Good luck with your future endeavors and I hope the census comes together well.

Many people (including @james29 ) may have limited knowledge of intersex biology and identity. According to the Intersex Awareness Trust of New Zealand, intersex is an umbrella term that has been in use for the last 60 years. It includes over 30 conditions where the sexual anatomy or the chromosomes are not the standard male or female.

• Previously the term hermaphrodite was in common use and there is still a lot of controversy about the preferred terminology. Some professionals prefer the term Disorders of Sex Development (DSD).
  • The incidence of intersex is at least 1 in 2000 births.
• Conditions where there are chromosomal differences from the usual 46XX or 46XY: Klinefelter’s Syndrome 47XXY, Turner’s Syndrome 45X0.
• Conditions where there are hormonal differences: Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH), Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS). http://www.ianz.org.nz/what-is-intersex/

Some people with an intersex condition identify as intersex, some identify as male or female, and some intersex people are unaware of their situation. Medical interventions on children mean that for some people there is no external indicator of difference.

"A heck of alot of Intersex wouldnt be happy with your judgement of them.
I, at least am not trying to label or speak for them. As you are. "

@rachealmcgonigal as an intersex person who is, uh, shockingly not at all unhappy with @james29 (because, yes, being intersex is a physical thing which is not about gender identity and i would be awfully offended if somebody who wasn't medically intersex adopted it as a gender identity):

a) you are definitely trying to label us (as having "intersex" as necessarily a gender identity) and
b) do you seriously think you're not speaking for us by saying we wouldn't be happy with James's statement?

@james29 , Am sorry you feel such, but that is your call.
We all have a right to express our views/opinons and must accept others have a right to theirs.

Our role is to moderate according to the terms of reference and to remove content at our discretion. After a warning we were glad to see the conversation between @rachealmcgonigal and @james29 reached a point of near resolution. We were saddened to see it spiral again and to see that James left the conversation. @rachealmcgonigal we would ask you to consider taking a rest and allowing some of the other voices in the thread to be heard for a while. These are sensitive and important issues for all those involved and everyone has learned from the conversation. We hope both parties re enter the conversation after a rest and engage in respectful and measured discussion without personal attacks of any kind.

We will post an update about the question of directly contacting moderators tomorrow.