@rachealmcgonigal, I have never had any interaction with you prior to this forum. I don't know who you are confusing me for, but please do not defame me when you have no idea who I am.

I, like @james29, need to disengage from this conversation for the sake of my mental health - that is what I wanted to speak to a moderator about. This will be my last comment in this thread until the situation is rectified.

We encourage people to continue discussions online. It is a great opportunity for people to debate these significant issues in an open and transparent way.
However the Statistics NZ census team is always happy to engage with people and you can do so using this email: census.external.relations@stats.govt.nz.
The Statistics NZ moderator role in these discussions is to maintain a safe discussion environment by reinforcing the terms of reference. Note that there will be an addition to the terms of reference before the weekend.
The facilitator role is to support and guide the flow of discussion and encourage people to focus on the purpose of the engagement.

I have come back to say that I am happy to talk about my experiences and my opinions on gender identity being included in the census - with anyone but @rachealmcgonigal . Everyone else please feel free to ask me about my experiences or tell me about your own, but I refuse to engage with her.

@chrose I hope you'll come back to the discussion. We cannot let anyone push us out of discussions that will impact our futures.

(Mods, is that better?)

@james29 great to have you back however please edit your comment to fit with the terms of reference as we would prefer to not remove it

@StatisticsNZmoderator
Sorry to say this but I stepped aside as asked.
It is clear that twice now your words have been ignored.
This last time above and the person is welcomed back and asked to edit their comment?
Please remove the comment.
I am not a bigot.
I am not negating his belief any more than he is negating mine.
I apologised 2x.
I tried to get back on topic.
I have expressed several times that all have a right to express their views and beliefs but that is ALL have the right.

Sorry but there seems to be a biasis here.

There was an inflammatory comment here which I have voluntarily decided to remove; I am leaving this statement here so that it doesn't look as if I took the cowards route and simply deleted it without owning that I was out of line. My apologies to anyone who received it in an email notification. I will take a step back before responding again.

@rachealmcgonigal moderation is at our discretion. Any more comments directed at each other in your posts will result in immediate deletion.

So to re-focus back on the discussion: Is there a need for data on gender identity?

Do people know of data about gender identity collected overseas and how it has been used?

@LisaAtStats I can't answer the second part of your question, but based on my own experience, I can answer the first.

There IS a need for data on gender identity. Including it in the census, this huge, most important piece of data in our society, would start the process of normalizing it and therefore halt this feeling that I and many people like me have of being Other. If you have been following the conversation you may have seen where I mentioned coming out to my boss at work. He didn't understand. Apparently, I am the first person in my entire company to request a uniform that does not match my "birth gender".

Now, he was really, really good about it in the end. To be honest with you, I don't think he really "gets it" even now, but at least he's listening to me and to what I need from him. But as I said previously, I had to go through a series of pretty excruciatingly uncomfortable meetings where I had to explain, in explicit detail, to a man almost thirty years my senior and in a position of power over me, how sex and gender were different, how gender wasn't binary...

It is my position that if gender identity is included in the census, it is a first step towards normalizing the concept that gender is not binary. That not everyone fits neatly into the male or the female box. And when that idea begins to sink into the general consciousness, then the likelihood of people like me having to go what I went through to get their needs respected is reduced dramatically.

Because I only had to convince my boss to let me wear a different uniform. Think about the people who have to talk to doctors, or school administrators, or government officials. Think about how hard it is for people to understand their own identity, only to find it impossible to explain it to others and/or have it respected.

Furthermore, let me tell you about the discrimination I've received personally. Most of it, thankfully, is really innocuous stuff. Taken as a single incident, it's nothing, but it adds up and really wears on me. I get laughter from people when they see that I'm wearing something that doesn't "correspond" with my "birth gender". I get invasive questions about my name badge, and "Oh, did you leave your badge at home and have to wear a spare one?"

No, I didn't. That's my name, this is my badge, this is my tie, and this is my life. I really encourage Statistics New Zealand to add gender identity to the census to legitimize us, one of the most overlooked and misunderstood demographics in society today, because there's powerful ignorance in the world, and it's time we took steps to rectify that.

I hope this message was helpful.

Is there a need for data on gender identity? Absolutely.

Aside from what everyone including myself has already said, I'll speak here as a person of color and a migrant: I have lived experiences of gender systems and understandings of gender that are different from the pākehā one. Many of my friends are Māori and other people of color whose gender is, similarly, something not adequately documented by the current system or recognized in any way.

Especially as this relates to Māori, I feel that there is an obligation to expand the understanding of gender and the collation of gender data in order to more accurately represent the needs of the people that this colonist state has marginalized.

I don't think the census can claim to have an accurate result if it does not account for this very fundamental way in which a lot of people of color are alienated and unable to discuss their experience of gender (which is so fundamental to our society), and I think it's very important for basically every organization which focuses on especially young people of color or queer people or otherwise marginalized groups to have this information and know how best to support the demographics they are targetting.

I vaguely remember a conversation from when I was at uni about how the reason our queer group had such binary options in the member page even though for our group it was totally not appropriate was that the uni used those and took the lead from government forms and census forms on things like sex and gender for data.
Also for myself I feel like a greater accuracy of data in gender populations, would mean I probably wouldn't have to keep explaining my non binary identity to my therapist - my partner has had the same problem in the past. I'm also frankly sick of filling out forms marking my gender as female when thats innacurate - and that includes for a city council job I applied for.

Also I feel like the word opinion has been used quite a lot in this thread, and I'm not entirely sure its an appropriate word here. Opinions are things we have on what we do and don't like such as food or clothing. It is not an opinion when it effectively leads to silencing people at best, or denying their existence or experiences at worst - then it starts to become hate speech. No one is invalidating some of the problems that lie within some of these terms existing together - but the harm is not caused by the terms, its how people use them. So when someone says that they have friends who were denied treatment because people said that they were in the spectrum, that's not the fault of the spectrum. It is the fault of those who misunderstand what is going on and should know better. This is why more statistics and knowledge are needed.

"So when someone says that they have friends who were denied treatment because people said that they were in the spectrum, that’s not the fault of the spectrum. It is the fault of those who misunderstand what is going on and should know better. This is why more statistics and knowledge are needed." @rowanburnettjones
There is alot in that statement that is on the right track, thank you and why several times I have said, I have no problem with those who believe in the spectrum, all good to them.

Not so sure I agree about the opinons as we all have opinions, right or wrong. We all need to express them but we should not get too worked up, if others opinons differ from ours.

Everyone has a right to their opinions and beliefs. Expressing opinons dont silence people. Some may take someone elses opinion in a way they feel is silencing them, but that is seldom the intention of those who expressed their own opinion.
Wouldnt it be wrong to silence some from expressing their opinion, when no harm is intended, just so others can have a stronger voice and thereby they are suppressed?

I do 'like' a part of your comment thanks.
Here is not to get further into this tho.

To put this simply for what we are feeling about your 'opinions' if I was to say it was my opinion that transexuals didn't exist - you would feel justifyly hurt pissed off angry etc. Because you do exist you do have experiences. But I could still say it was just my opinion and you are entitliled to believe you exist etc like you have. And you have even spelled out the harms of this 'opinion' in previous posts.

That is exactly what I am getting at with the use of opinions. And it is a real harm being told that you are not belived in - my alternative to existing as a non-binary person is my previous view - that I was broken and not worth living, knowing that non-binary exists is life-saving.

Thanks @james29 and @kiranfoster for staying on topic and addressing whether there is a need for information on gender identity. Is there anyone who has not yet posted that would like to comment?

The term "opinion" may be lacking in context. I have beliefs that are based on my personal experience, and on the reported experience of friends and associates. I am also reliant on scientifically credible research and data in building a view on subjects. Maybe talking of our experience and research would be more useful in this conversation than our opinions?

can I draw your attention back to official forms comment awhile ago, and also the conversation between Racheal and I about how the information is needed to be public to stop dangerous misinformation with medical professionals

Thanks @LisaAtStats I will encourage others to comment on their knowledge and experience of current statistical problems caused by lack of gender identity data including the basis of provision of government services to gender diverse people.

I attach a submission to the Universal Periodic Report that refers to gaps in statistics collected in New Zealand.

Official Ministry of Health advice on the basis for Gender reassignment surgery included the acknowledgement that
"Little is known about the true prevalence of gender variance in New Zealand, but both Māori and Polynesian society in general have a long history of gender variance, especially male to female. Recent research from the United Kingdom suggests a prevalence of 20 per 100,000 population, with a 4:1 ratio of MtF over FtM. Clinic populations suggest the longer the clinic is in operation, the closer the ratio of MtF:FtM is to 1:1"

Other research from Thailand suggests that up to 1 in 300 people identified as men are really trans women or gender diverse. Neither estimate is reliable enough to base health service funding on.
http://www.health.govt.nz/publication/gender-reassignment-health-services-trans-people-within-new-zealand and attached guide with explanations of terms

@rowanburnettjones , Perhaps you dont know me so maybe google my name please and contact me elsewhere as I'd enjoy the discussioin.
To answer simply your comment (I wont discuss it more in here) "that transexuals didn’t exist - you would feel justifyly hurt pissed off angry etc."
You need to get to actually know me as I couldnt care what your opinion is really. And that's not being awful.
You see I really do believe everyone is entitled to their opinion and if others don't agree with mine, it really doesn't matter. Thats kewl.
I know Transsexuals are real and special people. I have met and made so many friends who are Transsexual, all hugely diverse in so many ways. It hurts me to see them hurt but one more individual means little. It is the hurt from Govt depts, Employers, Teachers, Elective officials etc that hurts a bit. Hence I speak up. I dont seek to hurt others but at times a few may hurt themselves because of things I say. I cant help that alas.
I have been through a lot of bigotry, discrimination, judgements, losses etc that I have taught myself not to take offence at others passing judgements. Especially when they have never spoken to me, never had contact with me and really know nothing about me at all, in which to make a judgement about me.

Thats life. I am different. Those who know me little may tell you I am bigheaded, thick skinned, heartless etc. I definitely have a heart, but have learnt how to protect myself and that's why I am resilient and percicistent and carry on when so many tell me that after all these years of being knocked, kicked, back stabbed, I should have walked away like most others have done.
Sorry but thats not me, as I believe in Transsexuals rights and Transgender rights. The rights of all to have a belief and opinion.

Judge me as you wish.
I'll be back in the morning.

Sorry Mods, but please accept one thing I am sure we would all agree on, is having Gender, Gender identity included in the census is more important than non Trans, non Queer, non Transgender folk, non Transsexuals can ever appreciate. Is it right for you to decide for us?
Thanks

Hi everyone

A proposal has just been started, stating there is a clear and strong need to collect Gender Identity to validate the variety of gender identities. You can find it, and vote, at the top right of this page.

Proposals are being used to try and sum up the discussion and get a quick snapshot on what people's views on this issue currently are.

Proposals are not being used in the 2018 Census engagement discussion as a final decision making tool.

The proposal closes at 3pm on Monday. However the discussion stays open until the 10th of June.

What about these questions?
What sex were you assigned at birth?

M F __________
What gender do you identify with now?

M F __________
Which gender/s do you feel sexually attracted to?

M F __________

Where the underline is space available for options not stated. With the second two questions being only available for those 18+ .

@rachealmcgonigal its not a snapchat thing - which would be extremely weird. Theres a little poll thing at the top of the page asking how many people agree with this 'snapshot' of how stats has taken this thread. Scroll up on the right is a pie chart with what the thought is a little thumbs up or thumbs down button.

cont/ Its taken me 30 min of thinking about. How many in the real world will actually give it 30min to think about its meaning, ramifications? How many will give it 5 min to think out how to use it?
Sorry but this is a young persons thing that negates older people.
How about educating, then using before you enforce people to use and get the wrong answers.

Sorry but this sucks.

@rachealmcgonigal This isn't even a young person's thing - this is one of the ways in which this website is a bit weird and hard to use, I think. It took me a long time, and as I've said earlier, I'm nineteen (and a computer science major to boot)!

@rowanburnettjones thanks but,,,,
snapchat? Snapshot?

Sorry but I dont understand it at all and am sure there are many more who will shy from it.

I cant see it serves any purpose other than people dont need to discuss, just make a comment in the snapshot thingy. Is that all they will take notice of?
numbers for or against?
Are they really not interested in the discussions?

Sorry but to introduce this now, will scare off many from commenting I have spoken to and possibly were going to comment.
Not now as they wont understand how all this works.
No explination.

@rachealmcgonigal please edit one of your previous comments as it has breached our terms of reference and will be removed if the offending phrase is not removed promptly.

I dont wish to sound a stirrer etc or to offend but the facilatitors question to me is offencive sorry Lisa. But how much do you know and understand Trans/Transgender/Queer/ Transsexuals? But to say we need this to be included to 'validate' who we are, sorry but it shows someone who has no understanding of who we are and what we go through. In fact in away it highlights why we need to be show we are part of society as clearly you feel we need this to 'validate' who we are.
Believe me, I dont need anything or anyone to validate who/what I am. I am Racheal McGonigal, a female with boobs and a vj and can snap when I want to. Am hormonal and cycle.

Sorry but the more I think about your comment, the more offensive it is. Those who did a thumbs up really need to reconsider or ask do they really know who they are? Because a thumbs up to me, indicates they arent 100% sure.
I am furious as I feel the comment is a put down on myself and other TS who know who they are, dont seek to be 'validated' by anyone but do want the numbers collected so we can fight for an equal place and representation. Fight for equal healthcare services, employment oportunities, benefits and more.
But statistics cant validate someone who is already who they are and know who they are.
That statement is a put down and discrimination.
Please respect who we are - human beings and citizens of NZ.

Hi @rachealmcgonigal sorry to hear that your having trouble with the proposal. Thanks everyone for providing support. You can find a guide of how to use proposals here. Our intention is not to exclude people from the conversation, quite the opposite, proposals are a way of not only checking where everyone is at with their thinking but drawing more people into the discussion.

No offence was intended. We have used validate in a statistically technical way. What was meant was more along the lines of counted and recognised. We cannot edit the proposal once voting has started.

val·i·date (văl′ĭ-dāt′)
tr.v. val·i·dat·ed, val·i·dat·ing, val·i·dates
1. To establish the soundness, accuracy, or legitimacy of: validate the test results; validate a concern. See Synonyms at confirm.
2. To declare or make legally valid: validate an election.
3. To mark with an indication of official sanction:

I can see how you use it to claim you seek to validate what you wish to but the wording could have been better.
I still stand by my comments, That many do not have a clue what this 'snap whatever' is about and to just throw it in, is not right. Many wont know what its about as it is not explained.

As to how it breaches the terms, please how does it breach and I will edit.

I still profess, I an many I knoiw do not need any question in a census for to validate who/what we are and it is offensive to ask/imply we do.

@StatisticsNZmoderator please what term? Where do I find these, specifically the one?

I am sure I shall just be removed alas.
Not my desire at all.
I have no wish to offend anyone but cant see how I have.
please explain.

Sorry but I am likely out of this discussion as it is too complicated and therefore limiting. It therefore cant be shown and used as representative. When bits are thrown in, no explination and people, especially older, less technology minded are expected to understand as if it is a norm.
I am way more tech savy then alot my age, but this confuses me sorry.

Again, My comments were not meant to offend but I am offended. I dont need to be validated in any way.

Good luck but you arent being representative in my opinion sorry.
Night

For all the good reasons already raised we must be counted in the 2018 census, otherwise it will be 2023 before the next opportunity arises and we will remain bureaucratically invisible for another 8 years with all the attendant issues remaining. Where we need to put our energy and assist Statistics NZ is how to best frame the question(s) that go into the census so as to be inclusive as possible and provide Stats NZ with a clear signal of the size of the transgendered community. I don't have a clear idea of how best to frame this question but it will need to be relatively simple and straight forward otherwise I'm concerned it will be rejected as being too complicated.

Also at the risk of sounding inflammatory... I'm pretty sure "Hey, here's what we propose, click this button if you agree and these others if you don't/feel otherwise" isn't an overly taxing proposition. The recent spate of comments slagging off the mods and the way in which they are gathering information is really unacceptable, as is the tanty thrown when the conversation didn't go the way some people wanted.

Mods, if it helps you at all, a) I'm smart enough to click a button, as are most of the other people participating in this thread, and b) I'm sure you didn't choose this site or this method of data gathering for your own fun and frolics, but rather you are acting on orders of your own bosses? So let me just say thank you for the work you are doing, that you are letting us have this conversation at all, and assure you that not all of us share the negative views about you.

I suddenly feel like people have gone technology is witchcraft and should be burnt at the stake - it would have been much simpler to ask what it was then throwing a hissy, and age has nothing to do with it - my father is 62 and would have managed, and my 80something year old grandfather taught me how to use skype. Yelling about something you don't understand doesn't help I've taught 5 year olds with better problem solving skills then that. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's evil.

Also validity in statistical terms tends to lean more towards backed up by numbers and fact - if something is statisically valid it has the numbers to back a statement up - which is what we want.

Just to clarify, proposals are not primarily a way of gathering data. They are, we hope, a valuable tool for enriching discussion. What is of real value to us is understanding why you pressed the button you did and the nuances of the discussion it promotes. It is also a way of encouraging people who might otherwise be stay silent into the conversation.

I strongly agree with what every person pro this proposal has said, especially @alisonbronwyn's comment about how our energy should be directed at how to phrase this question in a way that could be incorporated into the census.

I also approve of the use of the word "validate" in the snapshot as to me that is exactly what is needed - legal validation of different gender identities so that we can begin to receive support and understanding from governmental, medical, educational and other institutions.

Q for facilitators @LisaAtStats or @Tom_at_stats Have the poll and its choices been checked for accessibility or readability ? Some of my vision impaired and blind friends use software readers that are OK with text but which don't read images.

@kayscarlet I'm not sure. We will look into and report back what we find. Since this is out of work hours we may not be able to find out until Monday.

Thank you. Where images are used it may be helpful to have a one line description under each image for people who would otherwise not be able to hear what the image is.