Kiez Placement

Hey y'all, some changes have been made as we decided to make a quiet viertel and shift some sound camps around as we lock in placement. Apologizes for the abruptness, but we hope that this will make for a better experience for everyone

Well, since Just Being is a quiet camp with chill music at "Zimmerlautstärke" we want like to stay where we originally planned to be. We made arrangements for workshops and building material that will only work there because of the platform, the fireplace (how perfect is a fireplace for a hippie camp?!) and the construction wagon. (Btw: I'm referring to the area where Süßkiez ist placed according to the update)

Thanks for the response Henrik! Site planning is very hard and sometimes trade-offs need to be made. Unfortunately the location where Just Being wanted to be did not work any longer because sound needs to travel east. Orientating on Kinderkiez, we made the whole west side relatively quiet and more loud camps more to the east.

We are aware that this implies certain changes in the way you set up your camp, which is why we wanted to take this decision as early as possible, still before Burning Pig. The new spot of Just being is absolutely wonderful: completely flat, grassy, between trees, right next to some really cool Kieze!

Happy to work with you to make it work.

I understand that Kieze are still registering and making it hard to decide about the best placement for everyone.
We have been planning for a while now and also got more concrete about the structures we are going to build. In fact Henrik spent a good amount of time looking into and getting materials to build something to cover that stage area for the workshops we want to bring & gift to the Burn. I guess you can imagine his frustration with the short term decision of re-placing us as a camp now. To be honest I have a hard time atm motivating my crew and make sure that stuff is gettting done. Decision like moving us around adds onto this so I guess you can also understand my frustration with that.
So I really want to understand the reasons behind this decision and if there is anything we could do to reverse it. Cause sound issues were there before. We are not an entirely silent camp and also thought about putting our tents somewhere where there is more space and just to have our structures in the dedicated area. So a bit of sound probably wouldn’t be too bad.
Henrik and the ones who were already informed and who have been to the site are not happy with the new location. I understand that it is quite impossible for you to make everyone happy but I also do understand that we are one of the bigger Kieze with more than 40 members and 30 more who would like the camp - so I can confidently say there is a major interest in the camp to exist and to be accessible for others wanting to join us.

Please let me know if there is any way I can support you with finding a better solution to this. Cause even though we are before Burning Pig - it is not even 2 months left and I do consider this change as a rather short term decision.

For starters, what is wrong with the new location? It is flat, and the hilliness of the previous location had been an issue in terms of finding tent space for everyone. The new location removes any possibility of a neighboring kiez interrupting a workshop with some boom boom music and does not restrict in utilizing new materials or building a stage.

It was supposed to be considered a compliment that Just Being would anchor the new quieter viertel. As a returning kiez with well produced ideas, Area 51 thought that your presence in the new location would ensure that region would remain interesting with fewer kieze placed there. While it homogenizes the region, it could be possible for JB to use the entire section below the road and move Gingeridoo across the road.

Due to the challenges of the former quarry terrain, there will probably be a number of various kiez residents not camping directly with their kiez. A kiez expanding almost 100 percent in size is great for participation and inclusion, but must be seen as almost impossible to guarantee room as other kieze might have similar growth desires, but we cannot accommodate potential growth in every placement. Simply setting up structures and everyone camping elsewhere sounds less like a burn and more like a centralized festival like Fusion.

I hope this shows some of the reasoning and inspires confidence in the new location

I totally understand you Anna. It is difficult to deal with changing requirements. However, we can commit to that location now. I also want to re-iterate what Randy just said: the new location is really really beautiful and could work perfectly for Just Being.

The main reason for the move of Just Being away from a more north-central position, has been that Kinderkiez needed to go really quiet, up in the north west corner because of sound concerns. The previous understanding was that sound needed to travel south-East, and now we know it needs to travel east. That caused Kinderkiez to no longer be able to be in the east. This in turn, caused some of the already placed Kieze in the west to no longer be a viable option there, and needed to be placed further away from Kinderkiez.

The only big, more quiet Kiez, is Just Being. We paired that up with 2 super interesting Kieze (one of them a kitchen kiez) to create an attractive chill atmosphere up in the north-west corner. We believe that will create a very interesting space during the day and early evening. It is the biggest flat space there is (the containers that were there on previous site visits will no longer be there) and would be 75% Just Being.

@bandit maybe you can add something here in terms of sound zones?

Sure thing and sorry to chime in so late guys!
The main problem we had last year was proximity to sound and not being able to escape from it at all on the site. Kinder was in a relatively quiet (from a WM site perspective) corner, but it was still loud and thumpy, and very difficult to escape.
Kinderkiez IS the one of the main reasons for this shuffle, but also we have had more space open up too us which means more land area to place camps.

We got A LOT, and I do mean a lot, of feedback on the levels of noise about last year's event, and wanted to emulate sound zone in much the same way the big Nevada burn does in making loud camps group together, while putting quiet and silent areas for relaxed and family camping away from these zones. We have an opportunity with the Freiland site to create something very similar, while working with the directional sound from larger camps. The last thing we want is to kill the party... but the party can't happen everywhere!!

It's never going to be completely quiet but we can work with the landscape to create quiet pockets. We also have villages very close to us, which meant placing sound camps up in the top northwest corner would have more than likely resulted in very pissed off surrounding villages, and added to the lack of ability to escape and chill away from thumping tech beats. More than anything we want a good working relationship with these villages in the future, and need to follow the guidance from Freiland about where to place and point sound. This has resulted in a reshuffle but let's all walk around the site keeping in mind that different Kiez have different requirements when it comes to level of noise, and see how we can collaborate to make the best of this for everyone.

Lastly we all need to hiFive Randy and Waldo as they are doing their best with changing requirements for us all.

For what little it's worth, we had the most recent site visit, and everyone on the visit was in conclusion that JB's new location is one of the best spots on the Gelände (we would like to be there as well hehe, it's gorgeous).
Anyways, you can see for yourselves at burning pig ;) that's just two cents that might help calm some of the frustration (which I can relate to).

On a second point. The areas south of Flow Camp's position (south and south-West of the Eastern lake) is virtually uncampable, expect for the very top of the hill. We're already at a very tight squeeze in utilizing that space for our own camp (we have the only flat area in the entire field, and need every centimeter). That's just a heads up, don't place any kieze or freecamping there until you can personally review the location at burning pig. It could end up getting messier.

Again, it's just a heads up ;)

we can extend the flow camp camping area over there a bit, no prob. lets evaluate at burning pig.

Hi guys, SüßKiez here, discovering our new location ;) To be honest we did not realise locations for bigger camps were still in review until now - and were already full power on structure explorations. The new site is quite different than what we expected after our last conversation with Randy. Could you please tell us, is the new placement now final, and if yes, WHO could give us more details about it so that we can start turning the structure ship around BEFORE Burning Pig already? THanks and hugZ. Alina. p.s. I must admit I am finding that camp communications flow a little less well this year - I do not feel like we are fully aware of what is happening behind the scenes. Would be nice to change that with a weekly email maybe? I know that's extra work for your mighty shoulders, but is absolutely essential to ensure all camp leads are in the loop. Hope this is OK to voice here)

Great feedback! Thanks Alina! The map in it's current state is final with the exception of: when everyone agrees to change a certain position. So if for example Süßkiez wants to change location with Just Being and they are both fine with that + Kinderkiez & other kieze agree and are fine with that + no issue for power, then yes, we can change locations. So feel free to take up those discussions here. From an overview POV, the map as it currently is right now however, is the best possible solution we could find. But nobody is perfect... So if you have suggestions, feel free to put them here and everyone can chime in.

Regarding Kieze communication: we'll work on that and hopefully be more communicative soon :)

Alina, there really hasn't been much to report. The placement discussion was apparently being done in private communication between Site Planning and the Kieze, so we don't have any details about that. Other than that, we've mostly been setting up events and asking questions on behalf of the Kieze over and over again until we get concrete answers, which we were not really getting until about now. My goal was to have the bulk of these things answered before the next Kieze meeting on Thursday and Burning Pig that weekend, and it's looking like we're gonna get there. We also have a newsletter coming out today in which we've compiled a bunch of information that is finally settled. We want to avoid a situation like what has happened with the placement, where unsettled information is taken as settled, so prefer not to report about discussions that don't end with some concrete answers, which is, so far anyway, about 95% of the discussions we have. So basically what's been going on behind the scenes is that we've been doing, on behalf of the Kieze, the frustrating task of trying to get concrete answers to questions that are important to Kieze, and it's been a slow process because many things have not been settled until very recently.

@randypence let me know when you have an idea where to place the basic bitches, so I can add power to the map for them too. Tnx!

Hey you guys :) So I'd like it put it out there that we Süßkiez do not mind a remote location in the woods and would be happy to swap with Just Being to makes their lives easier! We would looooooove to have the lecker-sounding Dhaba as our neighbour too ;) The only thing is, we are going to go boum boum on two nights and have registered as a sound camp (not as loud/full on as Zerzura or Underworld, but still! And the forest location in the forest has to be a quiet one, right? What can we do?

Based on your volume levels last year, I would not want you in a designated quiet area

I'm also not sure how to go on. On one hand I really like the plattform-valley, on the other hand the quiet zone argument makes sense. Also: Would it be smart to put a camp that revolves around candy next to Kinderkiez? 🤔

I think we'd need to talk about this face to face, at the assembly or whatever else is happening next. Cheers!

We can discuss it a bit more here: https://www.facebook.com/events/170005333828721/
But also at Burning Pig. Hope you might be convinced of the new spot. It really is a weighing of all options...

Folks, let’s get practical and talk about real solutions rather than debate the justification for things. These are solvable issues. Site Planning is doing a difficult job, managing not just your preferences, but many different, potentially competing, preferences and needs. Compromises need to be made. And keep in mind, the volunteers doing this for kborg are also fellow Kiez Burners, and possibly even your own Kiez-mates… they’re doing their best to make the best situation for everyone, and they deserve a bit of praise and thanks.

Just Being - I do not think you would fit in the platform-valley with 40+ people, it’s just not big enough. What do you really want from that location that you can’t have at the other location? Maybe we can do something about it. You really want a platform? Maybe we can build one at your site. You want a fireplace? That can probably be arranged. Maybe we can even drag that old wagon up to your site if you really want it. Let’s talk about what we can do to make your site work for you.

Süßkiez - It’s unclear to me what your preference for another location, or strong dislike of your location is. What do you need? What did you think you had in the preliminary location that you can’t get in your current location? What problems or obstacles does your current location present? Let’s figure it out. (I am a member of Süßkiez, and after visiting the site, our current location is what my personal preference was, though it was admittedly a bit arbitrary.)

Hey CJ, thanks for chipping in. We are all aware that site planning is tricky and so is organizing the build of a larger camp. The location was confirmed to me (yes, in a private slack conversation) and so we started to make plans and arrangements according to that location. We even found a solution to the space problem - which wasn't super easy. So there was quite a bit of time and effort that was location-dependent. Discovering that we had been moved without any heads up just made me angry.

I already let this go, but I want you guys to know that the way this happened wasn't cool. Peace! 🙏

Thanks for the clarification Henrik. Obviously I wasn't privy to your private conversations with Site Planning. I was a bit confused why some Kieze were convinced that the Kieze placement had already been finalized, especially since we're still registering new Kieze (just got one new one yesterday). I hear your frustration with how things went down... I will make sure to discuss that next time Area51 meets. Glad to hear that your current site is not unworkable, or at least that's how I'm interpreting your response. 👍🏼Let us know if there's anything we can do to help.

Hey CJ, SuessKiez was just trying to help and ease Just Being's pain. But looking at Randy's comment above, a swap is not an option, as we are a soundcamp. As per Henrik's comment, we too appreciate your work and know well it's a hard task! But, that said, we too were under the impression the last discussion we had with AREA 51 was final and had no idea changes were in sight. As per Henrik's comment, a heads up would have been more than nice to ease the transitional pains. Also would have been nice to talk to someone prior to understand the new location, so that we can accommodate our planning. As it went, you guys just dropped it on us and there was no discussion between then and now. We will work with the location assigned to us, of course, but this could have been managed a little more constructively/communicatively. My main problem is that the new location is COMPLETELY BARE - we were counting on having trees around our camp. We would prefer to keep the Wagon - would be good for us to have at least some structure in that case. Without any trees our hammock oasis of chill is not possible. But, we are looking forward to Burning Pig to find out more about the spot. If KiezBurn build is open to help us erect some structure as you just offered to Just Being, we would be thankful for that. Let's talk at Burning Pig. Thanks and love from Suesskiez.

Thanks SuessKiez. As I've said in my reply to Henrik, I personally was not included in the private discussions you had with Site Planning, so I don't know the what/how/why of it, but I hear your frustration with it, and I will make sure we discuss it next time Area51 meets. I don't have any immediate ideas of how to resolve the lack of tree problem... though I do believe there are some trees on the South side of your location at the base of the hill. I will investigate that and take some pictures and report back to you after Burning Pig. Also, your original placement is just 20m North of your current location, and according to the "final" map, is not yet specifically assigned to anything. It is meant to be a quiet zone, but maybe we could talk to Site Planning about moving SuessKiez back to that location with a stipulation of keeping the sound system on the far South end, which would maybe not be so much different than having a sound system at your current location? I can't promise that, but I can advocate for that if you think that's a better solution for you. I also can't promise that kborg will be able to build anything for Kieze... I only suggest that as a potential way of resolving the issue... to get our minds in the how-can-we-fix-this mode, but if you have something specific in mind, I will also advocate for that.

FYI, particulary @randypence and @waldo, we've had 4 new Kieze register in the past week.

cool, added them to the power sheet. Just waiting for Randy to put them on the map and then I can link in the power requirements. So cool!!!

yaeli, lemon, and bandana info is too incomplete to place with

@randypence what info do you need from them?

essentials are how many people, power requests, etc.

alright, I'll follow up with them

@randypence all 3 of those Kieze put in their expected number of Kiez mates, and 2 of the 3 put in their power requirements... am I missing something?

I sent an email to Yaeli asking for their power estimates

the info isnt in the spreadsheet, which ive been using for art, kiez, etc placement. where do you have it?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NNKUSpklAR357jC68oCPxlB50A4-0jg0MxvLGfkx8KM/edit#gid=439520485

Yaeli - 20 people - waiting for response about power needs

Lemon Camp - 12 people - 3000 for lights (We will likely have minimal power requirements, and just need power for lights and charging for a small camp. I doubt we would have any wired sound or art pieces that require power. )

Bandana republic - 6 people - 250 lights, 250 sound

pulled down the formula on number of kieze mates in the location sheet as well, seems like that formula just wasnt pulled down anymore

@randypence @waldo if there are any small quiet family friendly camps that want trees, we'll have more than enough space up by kinder, and we don't mind neighbours :-)

So... some person thought the Kieze registration form was the ticket application form... WTH... Camp Yaeli is not a real Kiez. So I will be deleting them from the map and power etc. @randypence @joicebiazoto and @cjyetman

@waldo @joicebiazoto @randypence We got another Kiez registration today... should we be closing down the registration form?

@waldo can this new kiez occupy part of the deine mudda stretch, due to proximity to drug sluts?

they're small-ish (12 people), so maybe

• I would not be closing down the registration, we can still place them on the website
• All registrations now, are too late to force other Kieze to move. We need to put an end to the endless going back-and-forth. Empty spots are up for grabs though.
• The decision in how far we want to accomodate these new Kieze, is up to Randy (site planning) and Anke (site placement)

Hey @randypence Can you put me in contact with the Lemon Kiez guys please? We have a possible situation brewing with the whole of Kinderkiez's area being 100% underwater, and we will likely have to shift one site up. Currently this place is tentatively being used by the Lemons, but we'd like to discuss them moving their 12 people up the road so our 40 will have space?

@cjyetman @joicebiazoto I do not have lemon'S contact info

@bandit I'll send you their email address in Slack

@bandit I understood from the Lemon Kiez that they had discussed that with you. I understood they were fine in that location and Kinderkiez was also fine. They said they had discussed it with someone else from Kinderkiez (not you). If there are any changes, please let me know before this evening.

@sarahwarren4 is from Lemon camp. I will send this thread to Aviv & Magda and Dylan, so they can respond here.

@randypence It´s Madda here from Lemon Camp: we talked about everything with Suska. yesterday on site. Our camp is going to be next to Monkey Camp, down the hill. Here

Suska was ok with the placement choice!!
it´s the "black" area next to the road below Monkey Camp not far from Süßkiez @bandit Amber is it clear?

It would be too small for Kids Kiez anyway. For Lemon camp is the perfect size