Why the distinction between "Disagree" and "Block"?

Perhaps the "block" button could be optional within the settings of a discussion. To me, block is used more frequently within groups which have equal decion making power. A lot of groups use loomio for hosting discussion which feeds into a decision elsewhere too, where loomio space is a temperature check. So it could be a tick box / optional? I like the "circle of red around the pie graph" idea. I am largely pro-block and dont feel like it needs to go.

I really like your suggestion @chelsearobinson. At the beginning of any face to face collaborative decision-making process, I always have a session where the group establishes some Agreements around "what's going to help us work well together". This has the effect of people knowing the expectations of others and creates a safer space all round. In this context whoever is leading/facilitating the meeting could ask the group "so what do you want to do about the Block Option?". For those who dont understand its power because they are new to the process, then there is some opportunity to provide some illumination around the power of veto and the responsibility of using such an option. I think you're right @chelsearobinson that if people know each other, then they also know implicitly where other people are coming from within the group.

I see Loomio increasingly creating a decentralised process of decision making that has way more authority than our current democratic voting system which has as its fundamental weakness, the creation of winners and losers. If that's the case then its just so important we get this stuff right as we engage larger numbers of increasingly new participants.

I agree with you too @alanna that this whole thread is mining the essence of why we are all here. We're getting down to some fundamental principles to do with the empowerment of people. I really appreciate this interrogation of the approach and the contributions of everyone. Thank you all!

I really like @frederickstark suggestion, or displaying a red halo around the pie chart.

After reading your comments I understand your point. The only question I have is "How can block be the last resort for minorities?". Does it suspend the voting?

Let's say on a decision with 100 votes, 10 are blocks. What's the decision's outcome? What if there are only 2 block votes?

That messy stuff depends on what the group in question has decided.
Past groups I've been involved with use modified consensus, where after a reasonable attempt to get agreement has been made, a decision can still pass with an 85% majority.
We never needed to use it thankfully because we made sure that everyone felt heard during the discussion.

—
Frederick Starkcell: 720 400-0251
Sent from Mailbox ( https://www.dropbox.com/mailbox )

I too like the halo idea, also the idea of making block functionality optional. Though if you go the latter route, then there's no reason not to have other options too, like "agreement with reservations," or distinguishing Abstain from Standing Aside. I did not advocate 50 shades (@diogonunes please don't exaggerate), but there are reasons to allow more than 2-3 options.

Part of what's tricky here is that Loomio does not distinguish between polling/temperature checks vs. actual decisions. Real life groups get into trouble when they aren't clear on which is which, and so will Loomio users. If the software doesn't structurally support making that distinction, then it's up to each individual user group to figure out a way to do it.

Agree with @frederickstark re how Blocks affect the process depend on what the group has decided. In classical consensus process, 1 block prevents a proposal from passing, even in a group of 500+. That's why it's important to have other ways to express serious dissent without blocking. Traditionally that's what Standing Aside has been for, and it's not at all the same as Abstain. Abstain means "i'm not participating in this decision," (e.g. due to conflict of interest or lack of information), whereas Standing Aside means something like Loomio's "Disagree": "i don't like this and i won't take leadership in implementing it, but i'll follow it, won't sabotage, and don't think it conflicts with the group's core values."

@treebressen sorry for exaggerating but I had to use that pun, why stop at 7 choices? :P
To redeem myself, I think you'll like this new decision ;)

This idea already exists in the backlog: https://trello.com/c/KM1cupt1

But @timmcnamara is also right that there is something to be said for simplicity. I suspect that if we kept the current ones as the defaults, but offered custom options in the settings, most people would still use the defaults and people who really needed to could customise them. Best of both worlds?

I think if this was designed/implemented in the right way it could be a really powerful way of extending Loomio's usefulness.

Groups that use Loomio really well very often hack it to do exactly this (i.e. specifying in the proposal context "press 'agree' if you think A, press 'abstain' if you think B', etc..) - I'd love our design thinking to be driven by the ways people are actually using the tool in practice and making the valuable things easier to do.

At the same time, maintaining simplicity/usability/clear affordances of the primary function is totally critical - to me this is kind of a super-user feature rather than an obvious surface-level feature - so it would make sense to have it as a subtle option that's part of the Proposal set-up process, behind a click.

@diogonunes , thanks for your flexibility of thinking - this has been an awesome case of an initial proposal bringing out lots of perspectives (and productive disagreement), leading to new possible solutions emerging. Love it!

I really like this idea and agree with @benjaminknight
"to me this is kind of a super-user feature rather than an obvious surface-level feature - so it would make sense to have it as a subtle option that’s part of the Proposal set-up process, behind a click."

Well, as @alanna mentioned, it it's already on the backlog there's no point in the current decision, it's settled :)

There was a feature developed to allow users to customize what text would go into the existing four slots (agree, abstain, disagree, block), [IE, this is what 'agree' means in this particular context, etc.] It didn't get put in because the functionality would get steamrolled by the upcoming 1.0 release, but I think it'd be a good candidate to go back in at some point, since much of it is already done.

@diogonunes the hard block is the tool of the individual, can be a minority, usually is just the one in the group that has the bad feelings about going forward or some element going forward with an idea. In great groups, the work in honoring a block lifts so much of the unconscious baggage its really remarkable. If you know astrology, I'd say the work of the hard block is in the realm of Chiron, the wounded healer.