Using Loomio for Mass Online Involvement With NatGat3

J Jackie Public Seen by 28

With Loomio, we now have a tool for mass decision making or temp checking.

In what ways could we utilize this during NatGat3?

Loomio used for large-scale citizen democracy project in Greece

Heather Marsh: government as mass collaboration

Combination of direct democracy in the Municipality of Athens

Marianne Manilov: Grassroots Organising and Looking After Yourself

Jacqui Graham: Meaningful Engagement in a Large Organisation
Wise Group, one of the largest non-government providers of community-based mental health and wellness services in New Zealand.


Justin Sun 11 May 2014 1:32AM

Loomio is best leveraged for groups of 12-36.

Lets focus on how it can help the confusion of too many communication channels.


Sally G Sun 11 May 2014 3:23AM

I was thinking that a GA question could simultaneously be put on Loomio for those watching from home on live stream; I am curious as to your 12–36 number; is that from this site, past experience, or what?


Jackie Sun 11 May 2014 4:12AM

I'd like to know more about that number too. This was one of the most exciting things about loomio to me - the chance for large numbers of people to weigh in, at their convenience, without having to be there for a meeting/GA.

it would have been great for the MTA and Strategy proposals last year if it had been up for a week or so before, gave people time for really in depth discussion and vote. then it would have been a real temp check of Occupy wide.


Jon Huizer Sun 18 May 2014 7:24PM

Participation will most likely always be an issue. Are you sure you'd want mass participation in the organizing process? Loomio is probably best suited for smaller, focused decision making groups....not for mass consumption. Just my two cents....As for my involvement, I can offer up advice and guidance when requested, vote on proposals etc; however, I do not want to pollute Natgat with what may seem to be "my own agenda". It's important to keep natgat organic so I'd like to avoid the possibility of a perceived conflict of interest. Having said that, keep up the good work


Sally G Sun 18 May 2014 11:48PM

We were not so much talking about the organizing process, but if a discussion was happening at a GA that was being live streamed and those who were following along could post the question and their hand signals on Loomio, so that their voices could be heard. Just a thought, though; I cannot figure out the exact logistics.


Jackie Mon 19 May 2014 1:27AM

Right, I was under impression loomio could be used by a large number of people for weighing in, but not organizing. maybe it was just my impression. Jon's the second person to say it's best used for smaller groups.

Still, there might be some way to use it for a GA or just large temp check by creating multiple discussions or groups. I'm thinking of the visioning process at natgat1 that started with groups of 3, 9, 45, and was supposed to work up to, I forget and don't want to do the math - 1000 some odd. Seems like a large undertaking needing multiple admins, mods, figure-outters and lots of media and outreach promotion.

Jon, by all means let us know, what you've experienced with the National General Assembly group. You guys did some beta testing of loomio. I don't see conflicts of interest when talking about platforms.


Poll Created Mon 19 May 2014 7:53PM

I propose a Loomio Event Closed Thu 22 May 2014 8:09PM

I would love to propose to host a Loomio Event, but I still don't even know what this puppy does. I like the thought of ShareTribe better for "gathering" type online events ... I'll be working the LAN Pod Nodes etc.


Results Option % of points Voters
Agree 0% 0  
Abstain 0% 0  
Disagree 0% 0  
Block 0% 0  
Undecided 0% 47 M J FW J BW LS TL JH J J T P JC KAF L SG C CG K LRR

0 of 47 people have voted (0%)


Cal Mon 19 May 2014 11:02PM

What you're talking about, Jackie, is scaling / scalability. Some things scale well (often with some adjustments), while other things tend not to.
As an example, people have been able to make conference calls work for five thousand people, if you break up the room into tiers of subgroups, and then have a facilitator/moderator who tends to each group and convey coordination info to a call "organizer".

There was a Temp Check online tool that a couple people in IO may have played around with. (I think that occupy.net was going to add it to the roster of tools for hubs, but my memory is a little hazy on that.) I haven't heard much about in well over a year.

What I've noticed here as that few proposals get much of a critical mass, and many proposals don't pass.


Tricia Mon 19 May 2014 11:29PM

Just doing the math: 12/21 proposals passed with abstentions that's 52%

I'm not sure what those other people who don't comment or vote are doing here...


Jackie Mon 19 May 2014 11:32PM

@nikiv - can you educate me on what LAN Pod Nodes are?

Sharetribe is an exchange - what ways were you thinking that could be used?


Jackie Tue 20 May 2014 12:54AM

Thanks @Tricia for the article. I read all of them, and Loomio has had some mass uses. encouraging.

@Cal - yea looks like that's what we'd have to do. scale.

The Alliance for Direct Democracy launched 461 Loomio groups, covering 18 federal departments, 13 regions of Greece, 23 prefectures, and hundreds of counties and municipalities. You can check them out at http://www.pripol.org/. Their website has buttons and tabs to loomio, mumble, etherpad (titan), irc chat, and even doodle.

Wanted to remind folks that there are buttons and tabs for loomio and sharetribe on our hub, http://interoccupy.net/natgat2014/`
also facebook feed. we need twitter! (@jackrabbit)

Natgat3 also has a mumble room that anyone can use at anytime. you need to download mumble, http://sourceforge.net/projects/mumble/, and get the audio settings right - there is a wizard. It may take several tries, but is well worth it for quick impromptu calls/chat meetings.
NatGat3 Mumble
password is occupy

For new folks that aren't familiar with maestro calls, if you are having regular phone meetings and want to use the maestro calls through IO, just let me or cal know or request here: http://interoccupy.net/services/request-a-call/


Jackie Tue 20 May 2014 1:23AM

While the how-to part gets knocked around, how about throwing out ideas for what we would use it for. Should that have another discussion or leave them together for now?

networking - creating regional or issue based groups
who discuss and bring some kind of proposal to natgat

framing the larger question - why do this - what is the goal or outcome.

the visioning process of natgat1 asked us to take a look at our desired collective future. natgat2 focused on change at local to global levels. I remember seeing a suggestion (after natgat1) that natgats continue to tackle, vision, strategy, tactics, action, goal.

survey questions, where are you now, what's planned

temp check - all sorts of stuff


Sally G Tue 20 May 2014 1:10PM

I am not sure about the “passage” of proposals here; the level of abstentions is a concern. On which proposals have we moved ahead after passage?


Jackie Tue 20 May 2014 2:00PM

It will be very important to have clear guidelines about decision making before we use loomio in the wider community. We will need to publish them before asking folks to be involved. (imo)

I tend to agree with Cal that few proposals get much of a critical mass, and many proposals don’t pass. I don't want to go back over them and do the math, but many proposals only had 5-8 people weighing in. The most popular had 12 or 13.

Let's continue this over on:
How we make decisions - Loomio Decision Making


Jackie Sun 8 Jun 2014 10:01PM

After writing to loomio "contact us" to find out about problems folks were having getting on here, I decided to ask Rick how we could leverage loomio for natgat. While not suggesting anything specific, they are happy to work with us if we do something.

Hey Rick,
I'd love to find a way to use loomio for an Occupy wide participatory thing, either live over the 4 days (July 31-Aug. 1), or maybe something for weeks in advance.
A few folks in this discussion said loomio is geared for smaller groups; another said we could scale it. - not sure whether a question, a survey, what form, what type of outcome or how to best leverage it and test it for large participation.
Would love if you guys have any suggestions.

Great question Jackie!
It's likely that we'll expand to large group participation in future, but we have chosen to focus on solving the problems of small groups first, and there are plenty more to fix yet!
In my experience, Loomio groups between 10-200 people tend to function really easily. We have some successful groups up around the 500 people figure - that just requires a bit more facilitation and structure (e.g. setting up sub-groups for different topics or geographic areas). Beyond that is uncharted territory.
If you'd like to try some large-scale experiments with the Occupy group, I could offer some support. I know we Loomions would love to work with our Occupy family to develop the culture and technology of large-scale real democracy :)
Warm regards,
Rich Bartlett