Loomio
Wed 28 Feb 2018 9:37AM

Division of work

WR Wessel Reijers Public Seen by 315

Let's first discuss (1) what platforms to test, (2) who will test which platform and (3) what metrics to use for our reviews

WR

Wessel Reijers Wed 28 Feb 2018 10:14AM

In terms of platforms to test, I would propose (1) Loomio, (2) Nova Ideo, (3) Discourse, (4) represent.me, (5) Liquid Feedback, (6) Demorcracy Earth ; any other suggestions?

L

lynX Wed 28 Feb 2018 9:32PM

If I mess this all up, how do you cope?

DB

David Bovill Thu 1 Mar 2018 7:48PM

Ok - I've been trying to collect the best most up to date list of softwares I can find. Took me longer than I thought a lot has changed the past few months and there is no good up-to-date review - though one should be coming out in the next month. I've found a few more... will post them here tonight.

DU

[deactivated account] Wed 28 Feb 2018 2:52PM

waiting for David's list

L

lynX Wed 28 Feb 2018 9:32PM

TROOOOOOLLLLLING TEST :wrestlers_tone1: :fist_tone5: :thinking:

WR

Wessel Reijers Thu 1 Mar 2018 11:51AM

Hi Carlo, this is not yet the review itself - so no need to do a stresstest here ;)

WR

Wessel Reijers Thu 1 Mar 2018 11:54AM

@nathalieb I send David a message, asking to join the group and share the list

L

lynX Thu 1 Mar 2018 2:43PM

Of course I need to stress test you in that place where you are trying to work.. otherwise you can ignore the comments and there is no stress.. that wouldn't be a good stress test!

DB

David Bovill Thu 1 Mar 2018 7:48PM

Nearly there :)

DB

David Bovill Thu 1 Mar 2018 7:49PM

Trolls deserve both to die painfully, or possibly to receive extra love and attention. Dunno - never dated a troll.

MS

Mats Sederholm Wed 28 Feb 2018 5:02PM

What about a common testprotocol, something (stylesheet?) that contains the features in the CC proposal so that we can evaluate each feature for each tool with a number and with comments or whatever so that we easily can share and better compare our examines.

WR

Wessel Reijers Thu 1 Mar 2018 11:52AM

We agreed before to use Loomio threads for the reviews, but I suppose it would be good to have a stylesheet next to it to collate results; would you like to create one?

DB

David Bovill Thu 1 Mar 2018 7:51PM

Mats - thats a good idea. I've been creating a template with section headers for the wiki I'm writing this up in... would be good if you suggest a short list of headers?

I suggest we start with text descriptions (to capture a richer feedback), and move towards a tabular form?

DB

David Bovill Thu 1 Mar 2018 8:11PM

Ah - just seen the spreadsheet - that's great thanks!

MS

Mats Sederholm Thu 1 Mar 2018 8:13PM

You can use only the text-related cells if you wich.

My template is already uploaded

DU

[deactivated account] Wed 28 Feb 2018 5:07PM

yes thank you for starting it!

L

lynX Wed 28 Feb 2018 9:37PM

I have an opinion. It is very loud and just like Milton Friedman makes everybody look stupid who doesn't agree. Is it democracy if you fall for my demagogy? :hugging: How are emojis meant to bring fact-orientedness to this debate? :wrestlers_tone5:

L

lynX Wed 28 Feb 2018 9:45PM

Does the Google Tag Services thing serve any political purpose, or is it just here to let the NSA know what is being debated?

WR

Wessel Reijers Thu 1 Mar 2018 11:54AM

So far, it seems we have the following people testing the following platforms: @sergioarbarviro Nova Ideo; @lynx Liquid Feedback; @ristoalakaila Loomio. Who would like to review which other platform? I could review Discourse.

MS

Mats Sederholm Thu 1 Mar 2018 12:35PM

Maestro conference I guess was mentioned in the meeting 18/2, unless someone has insights and know it's no use checking it out, I can go for it.

WR

Wessel Reijers Fri 2 Mar 2018 11:24AM

Hi Mats! Is Maestro conference just a conference call platform or an actual discussion platform like Discourse and Loomio? If it's the second, we should indeed initiate a review

MS

Mats Sederholm Thu 1 Mar 2018 1:49PM

Hi here is a test-protocol with the features & proposals suggested by CC and the Proposal itself as well

L

lynX Thu 1 Mar 2018 2:45PM

ethercalc.org instead of xls?

MS

Mats Sederholm Thu 1 Mar 2018 2:56PM

I haven't checked into ethercalc.org but I guess it would work as long it doesn't twist the overview and func of the protocol, would you like to convert it?

WR

Wessel Reijers Fri 2 Mar 2018 11:49AM

I created one: please use this sheet: https://ethercalc.org/o6ejym0y8bs5

DU

[deactivated account] Sat 3 Mar 2018 3:55PM

Could we add a another metric? Quite an important one:

How easy and democratic is the moderation within the platform?

DB

Poll Created Thu 1 Mar 2018 8:04PM

Let's use Loomio and Discourse Closed Mon 5 Mar 2018 9:01AM

Let's adopt Discourse for discussions, use Loomio for proposals + voting

Results

Results Option % of points Voters
Agree 0.0% 0  
Abstain 80.0% 4 DB WR DU MS
Disagree 0.0% 0  
Block 20.0% 1 L
Undecided 0% 6 VS RA AG E S RB

5 of 11 people have voted (45%)

DB

David Bovill
Agree
Thu 1 Mar 2018 8:05PM

I'm not sure if we would also need Discourse = too many platforms.

DB

David Bovill
Abstain
Fri 2 Mar 2018 7:42AM

I'm not sure if we would also need Discourse = too many platforms. I think there may be a better "minimal" proposal here - need to think about it.

DB

David Bovill Thu 1 Mar 2018 8:21PM

I wonder if we can use Loomio to rate the different features. Will do a test.

MS

Mats Sederholm Thu 1 Mar 2018 11:09PM

David, just so I don't misunderstand this. "Let's use Loomio and Discourse" Do you mean for the administration of the evaluation or do you mean as a suggestion for the final choice of tool(s)?

DB

David Bovill Fri 2 Mar 2018 7:41AM

@matssederholm - good question :) I was really testing the Loomio culture - make a proposal to provoke a discussion. The sub-title is the exact text from the original doc from Eric I think - "Let's adopt Discourse for discussions, use Loomio for proposals + voting"

The idea is that you change your mind during the discussion period. I'm also testing how flexible Loomio is nowadays as i haven't used it in a couple of years.

MS

Mats Sederholm Fri 2 Mar 2018 11:47AM

okay, thanks for explaining.

In the proposal communicated to Dem Labs it says:
Proposal 1: adopt Discourse for discussions, use special subforum for proposals + voting

Proposal 2: adopt Discourse for discussions, code proposals platform

Proposal 3: adopt Loomio for proposals, let members discuss on Facebook or wherever they want (not provide an official forum)

Proposal 4: adopt KuneAgi for proposals, continue to use existing forum for discussions

Proposal 5: adopt Mattermost for discussions, adopt Loomio for proposals

So your quote puzzles me.

But I would suggest there should be no anchoring but rather to check out what is out there according to your best knowledge and in regards to the required features. I say "you" as my position together with Nathalie is more of being supportive.

DB

Poll Created Fri 2 Mar 2018 8:23AM

Most important software features for DIEM25 polling? Closed Mon 5 Mar 2018 8:02AM

Here we rank features for the software we need for DIEM25 polling. By "polling" we mean a pre-vote that is widely accessible to all DIEM25 members in order to prioritise proposal candidates that can go to the CC / VC.

There are a lot of options here. Full explanation of what they mean in detail we can elaborate in the discussion here, and also on the wiki - http://bit.ly/2F6jMmM

Results

Results Option % of points Points Mean Voters
Debate and Discuss 14.4% 22 3.7 6
Find and connect to members 13.1% 20 3.3 6
Group video discussions 13.1% 20 3.3 6
Self-hosted software (data privacy) 12.4% 19 3.2 6
Multilingual content 9.8% 15 2.5 6
Single sign on (same as members area) 8.5% 13 2.2 6
Facilitate local action 7.8% 12 2.0 6
Topic channel creation 7.2% 11 1.8 6
Simple account sign in 5.2% 8 1.3 6
Embed-able voting (vote anywhere) 3.3% 5 0.8 6
Demographic polling 2.6% 4 0.7 6
Facebook voting 1.3% 2 0.3 6
Privacy only polling 0.7% 1 0.2 6
Secret ballot (pseudo-anonymous voting) 0.7% 1 0.2 6
I can add another option 0.0% 0 0.0 4
Undecided 0% 0 0 5

6 of 11 people have voted (54%)

DU

[deactivated account] Sat 3 Mar 2018 1:23PM

1 - Debate and Discuss
1 - Embed-able voting (vote anywhere)
1 - Self-hosted software (data privacy)
1 - Single sign on (same as members area)
1 - Simple account sign in
1 - Topic channel creation
1 - Multilingual content
1 - Find and connect to members
0 - Demographic polling
0 - Group video discussions
0 - Facilitate local action
0 - Secret ballot (pseudo-anonymous voting)
0 - Privacy only polling
0 - Facebook voting
0 - I can add another option

I can add another option, but I cannot delete it

DU

[deactivated account] Sat 3 Mar 2018 1:25PM

8 - Self-hosted software (data privacy)
7 - Single sign on (same as members area)
5 - Group video discussions
5 - Multilingual content
1 - Debate and Discuss
1 - Embed-able voting (vote anywhere)
1 - Simple account sign in
1 - Topic channel creation
1 - Find and connect to members
0 - Facilitate local action
0 - I can add another option
0 - Demographic polling
0 - Facebook voting
0 - Privacy only polling
0 - Secret ballot (pseudo-anonymous voting)

I can add another option, but I cannot delete it

DU

[deactivated account] Sat 3 Mar 2018 1:31PM

7 - Single sign on (same as members area)
6 - Self-hosted software (data privacy)
5 - Multilingual content
3 - Debate and Discuss
3 - Group video discussions
3 - Find and connect to members
1 - Simple account sign in
1 - Topic channel creation
1 - Embed-able voting (vote anywhere)
0 - Facilitate local action
0 - I can add another option
0 - Facebook voting
0 - Privacy only polling
0 - Secret ballot (pseudo-anonymous voting)
0 - Demographic polling

I can add another option, but I cannot delete it, I can go back on my vote and change it

MS

Mats Sederholm Sat 3 Mar 2018 11:49AM

Loomio has given me application-error repeatedly the last days, on different computers and mobile (android). It doesn't look promising to me. Solidity and access is just as important as any of the features Anyone with more experiences of loomio than me, comments?

WR

Wessel Reijers Sat 3 Mar 2018 1:39PM

@matssederholm I had the same issue.

WR

Wessel Reijers Sat 3 Mar 2018 4:02PM

DU

[deactivated account] Sat 3 Mar 2018 7:21PM

@wesseldublin, what about Democracy Earth? Not worth checking within next 24 hours since it was in your DiD list? Other ones not inspiring, Loomio and Discourse already on the bench.
https://www.democracy.earth/

http://sovereign.software/

RA

Risto Ala-Kaila Sat 3 Mar 2018 7:42PM

Hey @davidbovill and all folks! I can´t find the time poll option at the categories of the review, or is it considered to fall into the category of "Facilitating (local) event". While we are constantly searching for dates for meetings both live (local) and online it would be quite convenient to have a calendar application integrated, or how?

MS

Mats Sederholm Sat 3 Mar 2018 7:56PM

Isn't the meaning of dotvoting that all of us has the same number of dots to share on the different topics?

DU

[deactivated account] Sat 3 Mar 2018 8:01PM

30 dots in total right?

MS

Mats Sederholm Sat 3 Mar 2018 11:39PM

Yes that would work for most of us, but not for Wessel and David.
I just want to make sure we're all on the same amount of dots

S

SergioArbarviro Sat 3 Mar 2018 9:28PM

I am currently working on the EtherCalc document. Great idea! It fits perfectly well with the standard professional procedure of "compliance tables" in calls for tenders in technical environments. My only observation would be to change the title of the "comments" column into "justification of the mark given". I have made this change on the Nova-Ideo column that I am leading.

MS

Mats Sederholm Sun 4 Mar 2018 2:36PM

Regarding the spreadsheet

The first row in the spreadsheat beginning with "Proposals & Feature Concluded...." is just a descrption of all the features that is then listed below and not supposed to be evaluated by itself. When the original spreadshit in MS Excel was converted to this some formatting was lost and the content perhaps lost a bit of simplicity and overview.

Regarding UI & UX

UI & UX considerations should be evaluated as well but is forgotten, I guess, these are very important areas. Maybe they should be brought in as being evaluated as well.
But if so, let's do it when we all agree on it or maybe we should just keep these areas in mind discussing the outcome of all of this

MS

Mats Sederholm Sun 4 Mar 2018 2:44PM

Regarding LiquidFeedback

Do anyone know if we have an evaluation by @lynx on its way?
I really would like to have that tool evaluated before we move on to decisions.

Do we need more time? Let's discuss this at the meeting 6 pm

VS

Ville Saarinen Sun 4 Mar 2018 5:13PM

Hi guys, was there supposed to be a meeting at 18.00 CET time? Did you send a Zoom invitation (can't see one)?

S

SergioArbarviro Thu 8 Mar 2018 12:31PM

Work done (already on last Saturday 03 March 2018)