Thanks Abby this is helpful. Having just walked past a local wholefood shop I now have a packet of Hodmedod's whole dried Fava beans and will try them out tomorrow and see if that sways my vote! Also thinking about roasted bean snacks. If we can avoid the Bruchid Beatle by using this as a companion crop and meet the specification for human consumption we could have an outlet for the beans but if we get the beetle then the beans go for animal/fish consumption. Not sure whether dried beans need to dry in the field and if that would work with timing for wheat harvesting.

Although I cannot vote, I do think it may be a pity to eschew growing Spelt on grounds that some mills prefers to buy and sell organic product. The market for Spelt is expanding beyond being a niche product, and I expect its' popularity to grow rapidly as more people come to understand the various benefits of this grain. I now bake bread almost entirely with Spelt (not organic); and many artisan bakers and even supermarkets have introduced Spelt loaves.

There is definitely a market for the grain, in its non-organic manifestation; and it commands higher prices than regular wheat - but of course it has a lower yield and the seed costs more.

It does not need repeating now, and certainly OurField Weston group should be familiar with the argument, that conservation agriculture as practiced at Weston _ can be better for the soil and nutrition than organic methods _ - so I resist being intimidated by claims from health shops and specialty retailers who have developed an organic market..they may be left behind.

Looking beyond this year alone, I think it would be best to go with an option that optimises soil health in the long run.

I would be interested in knowing more about the (long-term) benefit to the soil of a companion crop like fava beans vs. a companion under-story. Is there any convincing evidence to suggest one is better than the other for the soil? I'm sure it's probably more nuanced / complex than this but if anyone has any insight on this, I'm all ears!

@tessatricks @matteodv It's not a scientific source but I think this answers your question well. http://www.gardenbetty.com/2013/10/planting-fava-beans-as-a-fall-cover-crop/

Basically, yes, I believe nitrogen fixing plants can be eaten and still give a benefit to the soil as long as the roots are left behind. Unless others with more experience know more?

One thing to note is that, all being in the Fabaceae family, we shouldn't sow legumes/clover/trefoil every year as they should also be rotated.

@annielandless Talgarth mill sounds lovely :) Would you like me to send them my standard email and see if they get in touch or do you want to do it once the vote's finished maybe?

Yes please go ahead and email Talgarth mill! Would be great to hear there thoughts and I'm quite strapped for time at the moment!

Just a very big list of wind and water mills grouped into region if we think we have time to do more searching - some will be small mills but you never know we may find one ready to experiment with us. List comes together for national mills weekend in May. http://www.nationalmillsweekend.co.uk/index.htm

Sorry, just realised that there are a few outshtanding questions various people have put to me. The answer normally is: I don't know. This is uncharted territory for us. In terms of the benefit conferred by the legumes in the mix, it has to be said that from the legumes point of view, feeding the Rhizobia bacteria that nodulate on their roots is quite expensive in energy terms, ie they have to give the bacteria a lot of sugar to get the nitrogen back. They aren't going to want to give that to the wheat/spelt or whatever. Some will trickle across, if a plant is swamped out by the crop and the roots die back, any N there is available to the crop. In theory. A lot of what we do is preparing for next year. Not much help to you guys, who want to see a profit this time, but there it is. There are other benefits to companions, in terms of weed suppression, disease limitation, pest confusion and symbiotic mycorrhizal intereaction. But I wouldn't like to give that a value that you could put a pound sign against. We'll perhaps leave a strip across the field all lonely, with no companions, and see if it does better or worse.

I'm loving the debate and can't wait to see what wins...

Very tough choice and thank you for the nudge @grahamehunter, time has escaped me! I've been toddling between wheat/beans and spelt. I'm keen to explore how we could develop a market for the beans - I've had some of the bean beer before and it's grand. @johncherry you mention you have a lot of these lying about, could I look at sourcing some from you and doing some experimenting?

After much deliberation I'm going to go for spelt - I think challenging the market with a non-organic but no till alternative could, one, be beneficial for raising the profile of spelt in general and, two, could be an avenue for opening up the no-till discussion with a grain that starting to gain traction

Help yourself, we've got a nice little pile. I'll be using some for spring seed, but they'll be plenty left.

Grand! Think I could pay a visit one morning over the next couple of weekends to pick some up/get some fresh air?

For anyone interested I did a bit of quick reading on naked oats. Decided not to go with it because although they are eaten by humans I'm worried we won't find a good way to process them. It seems like they often end up as animal feed. They can be used for brewing though! Apparently they make very good straw too. In the end spelt feels safer to grow something marketable and I'm excited about finding a mill who will process it!

http://www.fwi.co.uk/news/naked-oats-energy-boost-finds-followers.htm

http://www.premiumcrops.com/spring-naked-oats.html

https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/naked-oats.15681/

https://cereals.ahdb.org.uk/media/335860/pr352_complete_final_report.pdf

http://northerngraingrowers.org/wp-content/uploads/OATS.pdf

http://www.quoats.org/documents/Oats%20-%20From%20breeder%20to%20market%20book.pdf

Hi, I am sorry to have missed the vote. My fault. Other areas of life seemed to take over even as I was reading and thinking through the opinions and options and references. Am a bit down about that. Anyway, well done to all who have contributed. Its fascinating. I agree and disagree with so much, perhaps in almost equal measure. Very interesting and enlightening to read what others are thinking. So, apologies again, and thank you all for your contributions, even for those I disagree with.

It would be very useful indeed to have comments from Richard Harding on the outcome of the vote. If he has time.

a privacy issue has arisen..

See my note in the admin thread, posted after I noticed some members wishing to exchange addresses etc.

If you exchange personal information on the Loomio site - _even if you are logged in _, - be aware it is in a public forum, so visible to anyone _ not just other members of this group.._

So, if you would like me to send your private emails to other members of the group - in a way that they are __ NOT visible to the general public__ - then _ please let me know without disclosing your email addresses on Loomio _ (as I already know all the members' contact information)

@alexandrasexton @alfredlawrie @andreadibiagio @averilglencross @catherinearend @christinelewis @danielkindred @darren4 @edibleutopia @edna @ellemcall @emersoncsorba @carolingoethel1 @harryboglione @harrygreenfield1 @jamestickell @johnanthonyallan @karlschneider @lucybradley1 @matteodv @matthewshribman @nikireynolds @nikitagulhane @romymiller @sadhbhmoore @seangifford @sebastianpowell @shyamdesai @sineadfenton @stevenjacobs @stinewilhelmsen @tamsynforsyth @tessatricks @tristramstuart @veronicalopesdasil1 @wendyalcock @johncherry

happy to share privately

Cheers Grahame.

I want to send you some stills and with Fiona's permission a couple of videos for the site. There will be a Dropbox folder for you soon. Anything specific you would like?

All the best and thanks for being our moderator

Catherine 😀

Hi Catherine, bucolic shots of happy erstwhile farmers in the idyllic landscape of Weston?

To all
We have a problem.
There may be no spring Spelt seed in the country.
If this is the case, then I have requested John to move directly to the second selection of which crop to plant - namely __ a modern wheat variety with a beans companion cash crop - __ _ unless at least 10 members of the group write to me here or at gnlh01@gmail.com to say they particularly think we should have a second vote on the matter _ (at which, wheat and beans, oats and companion crop, naked oats and companion crop, would be offered as the 3 options.

the deadline for telling me you think we should have a whole new vote, is midnight 28 March 2017.

If fewer than 10 persons think this, John will continue to hunt about for suitable Spelt seed, and then default to wheat and beans when he runs out of time.

_ Any members of the group who think they can help source 1.5 tonnes of Spring Spelt seed, should leap into action, and get on the phone! _
@abbyrose @alexandrasexton @alfredlawrie @andreadibiagio @annielandless @averilglencross @catherinearend @christinelewis @danielkindred @darren4 @edibleutopia @edna @ellemcall @emersoncsorba @carolingoethel1 @harryboglione @harryboglione @harrygreenfield1 @jamestickell @johnanthonyallan @abiaspen @karlschneider @lucybradley1 @matteodv @matthewshribman @nikireynolds @nikitagulhane @romymiller @sadhbhmoore @seangifford @sebastianpowell @shyamdesai @sineadfenton @stevenjacobs @stinewilhelmsen @tamsynforsyth @tessatricks @tristramstuart @veronicalopesdasil1 @wendyalcock @johncherry

Problem with spelt seed
I do not see the point in growing a modern wheat variety. I think we should have another vote unless John advises that getting oats seeds will also be a problem.

I agree about another vote being a good idea

Sent from iCloud9

I would like to have another vote as I don't want to grow wheat.. I don't like wheat and would rather have oats if we can't have spelt.. I will try and hunt down spelt seed as I am a brilliant hunter and researcher in the meantime.. 🐰

I am okay with going for second choice of Wheat and beans without another crop. Shame if we can't find enough Spelt seed but time must be a critical aspect now. We must remember we voted for the maybe not human feed crop by opting for companion crops in which case optimising farming technique for sustainable outcomes is needed.

I'm not surprised there is a lack of spelt seed at the moment. It has become hugely popular again in recent years which when this has happened in the past did pull the price down post harvest as there was suddenly so much of it.

Also worth noting is that although spelt is from older varieties of cereals it is a type of wheat and the two main varieties of spelt normally available, Frankenkorn and Zollernspelt are modern versions of the original spelt.
It still comes with attractive qualities of nutrition and taste and can be a hardy cereals once established in the ground.
I'm of the view that the ideal is whatever we all can agree with John would work best in this field during this year. But I also think that its very good if we can also think ahead and consider lessons learnt, quite a few already, to contemplate for future such projects, here and/or elsewhere.
Emmer? Einkorn? Some of Andy Forbes' or John Letts' heritage varieties?
But, many of the heritage varieties they are working with are not spring cereals, I'm thinking for the autumn sowing.
If we cannot get spelt this spring, I am OK for the second option. But I am also OK to give a little more time for sourcing seed if that is available and to help us all find a way through this particular challenge.

@grahamehunter @johncherry I have sourced some spelt seed.. It is £800 a tonne and available to be delivered before April.. Can I telephone you or John ASAP?

The crucial thing is that it needs to be Spring Spelt seed Niki. Apparently most, if not all, Spelt grown in the UK is winter sown as it has a vernalisation requirement, ie it needs winter weather as a trigger before it will form seed heads later in the year. Please telephone though

@john cherry yes I see.. They got back to me to say it was winter spelt seed.. Seems there is no spring spelt seed available to buy right now.. A shame.. Hope we can have another vote

I'm very keen to grow something other than wheat, so would prefer to have another vote - unless, as Tony says, John advises that sourcing oats or other non-wheat options will also be problematic.

I totally agree on growing something other than wheat which is boring to me as I don't eat it! I do hope oat seed is available otherwise we are stuck with wheat😕

I would also prefer having another vote if Spelt isn't available

There will be another vote about the crop..

@abbyrose @alexandrasexton @alfredlawrie @andreadibiagio @annielandless @averilglencross @catherinearend @christinelewis @danielkindred @darren4 @edibleutopia @edna @ellemcall @emersoncsorba @carolingoethel1 @harryboglione @harryboglione @harrygreenfield1 @jamestickell @johnanthonyallan @abiaspen @karlschneider @lucybradley1 @matteodv @matthewshribman @nikireynolds @nikitagulhane @romymiller @sadhbhmoore @seangifford @sebastianpowell @shyamdesai @sineadfenton @stevenjacobs @stinewilhelmsen @tamsynforsyth @tessatricks @tristramstuart @veronicalopesdasil1 @wendyalcock @johncherry

Sufficient people have voiced concern about sliding into a modern-wheat-with-beans default second choice, that __ I will set up a second vote on the matter.__

The new proposal will go up on Thursday night 30th March and will be open until Sunday night midnight.
_Please use the time before Thursday to air particular hopes of what may be included in the options that will be put to the vote _ (but _ please also understand that the final selection is one which John will determine with Richard Harding based on seed availability, and suitability for the field..)_

That is very good news! Excited to vote for a crop.. Is the only option oats or would it be possible to sow barley, rye or anything else, seed availability permitting of course..? 😃

Dear Grahame

Please send my email to other members of the group.

Best

TonyA

@johncherry are there any heritage grains that would be suitable to plant?

With this second vote are we still going to be choosing between on companion cropping options?

@lucybradley1 @johncherry I would also like to know if we have any heritage grain options or is the only alternative to the wheat, oats?

Slightly embarassing, but we've been flat out this week with planting stuff and calving cows etc and I haven't really focussed on alternative crops. I'm waiting to hear back about some spring rye seed that may be available and don't know if there's any heritage options (as Steven says above, most heritage wheats are winter sown), so we'll delay the vote for a day or two so that we can be sure what we're voting for is actually feasible (and hope spring spelt materialises...we've had a few false dawns wih it so far). It's a pity, the ground is drying out beautifully in this lovely weather, the barley we sowed last week is up on the row already.

@johncherry of course, I understand.. Spring is a busy time on the farm! Spring rye sounds interesting.. Rye is very popular with bakeries, especially artisanal ones.. Good to delay the voting until you are sure of what's available.. It's good news about the warm dry weather.. 👍 😃

@nikireynolds and @johncherry. Thanks for your thoughts and glad to hear things are going well at the farm. I'll keep an eye out for updates re: spring rye over the next few days.

With apologies for the delay, we're still sniffing out alternatives to the three options already discussed and will post what you can vote on tomorrow.

20170403 Would it be possible to show automatically the date that a message is posted on this string? Or should we - GRAHAME - enter a date of origin ourselves?

Thank you JOHN for finding time for the Ourfield activity despite the multiple pressures of spring.

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One of the lessons we have learned is the constraint/opportunity of winter v spring varieties.

If we are to continue next year - as I very much hope we shall - we should already be thinking of next year and the rotation options, as well as our goals. The latter include weed suppression, soil enhancement, financial returns, transaction costs, etc.

Apropos transaction costs I am very anxious that all the transaction costs are being borne by John. Ideally we should capture them and make sure they are in the accounts.

On my part sitting at a screen is exceptionally unstressful. All one does is ask questions and reveal a low level of knowledge. Voting is definitely fun.

Hi all. I have been meaning to type this up for a week or so (and maybe it is better to wait until we know what we’re growing) but I had the time today, so here it is :)

I heard back from three of the mills I contacted in March – all were very keen to hear about the project - and they told me the following:

Wicken mill http://www.nationalmillsweekend.co.uk/pages_wind/wicken.htm

This small community mill was restored a few years ago and has gradually increased production to 7-8 tonnes last year. They are not electric so are reliant on the power of the wind.

They currently buy their organic grain from http://www.hammondsendfarm.co.uk/ who seem to supplier the smaller traditional mills (and e5 bakehouse). They order grain in 2-3 tonne batches (a trailer load) for £500 a tonne. They are not certified organic so cannot sell their flour as such.

They would be happy to try some of our non-organic grain, if the crop is a good quality, either by a) buying and milling to sell the flour themselves, or b) milling the flour for us for a fee. They can send us a quote if we were interested in option b.

Brixton mill http://www.brixtonwindmill.org/

They also buy from Hammonds End Farm but on a smaller scale - £11.25 for a 25kg sack. Last year was the first year they milled anything (just 750kg of wheat and barley) as they have recently finished the restoration. They would like to try some of our grain, quality dependent, but it is unlikely to be much.

Wrights mill http://www.wrightsflour.co.uk

The MD of this 150 year old, quite large, family mill in Enfield called me himself and sent the following email a few days later:

“Following on from our conversation Wendy we would be able to turn your grain into flour, packed in 16 kg sacks and delivered in 26 pallet loads for £150 per tonne. As I mentioned it would probably be best to buy the grain from you at the market price and sell the flour back to you at this additional cost of £150 per tonne. Bear in mind too that we would need a minimum of 29 tonnes of grain which we will process in one go.”

On the phone he also offered the choice of 1.5kg or 500g bags (for an additional cost). All bags will be plain but can be labelled with a design of our choosing.

He said we would get around 20 tonnes of flour for our 30 tonnes of grain (I guessed we might have this amount). Processing takes around 48 hours to clean, condition mill and pack. We will then need to take delivery of the flour as they cannot store it for us.

We can call to book in the work with around a week’s notice of the harvest. They usually do wheat but can also process spelt (if we are able to grow it, of course).

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If we end up growing a millable grain I think we have a couple of choices. To use a mill that can process all of the grain in one go and then try to find a buyer for the flour. Or we find several smaller mills to take a part of the grain each who then mill and sell the flour to their own customers. The later would be a nice goal of the project but may be a logistical nightmare!

Apologies to those in the know if some of the info is basic – I have included if I thought it was interesting/useful to know. And do say if you think I have missed any options or you have questions on what I have found out.

@wendyalcock this is really interesting and helpful to get a picture of the various options, including labelling and distribution. Great that mills of different scales are interested too. Thanks for researching and sharing 👍

A quick update for those expecting another vote...we have found some 'summer' spelt in Germany and are currently trying to work out how to get it back to the UK. Thus it looks like we can go with the original vote and grow spelt, but how it will grow, nobody knows.

Meanwhile, if anyone has a van and a spare day or two and fancies a trip to what Grahame assures me is the most beautiful part of East Germany, then get in touch. We will be bringing two tonnes back in big bags.
More later...

Fabulous news @johncherry so pleased to know that you have sourced summer spelt and we can now grow it as we originally hoped to.. Congrats for finding it! 😃 👍

_The Spelt has now been ordered, paid for, transport arranged. _ The well-named German who is selling us the Spelt, Werner Backer (which means Baker), has told me he will make it ready tomorrow (Saturday); and it will be picked up on Monday.

It has been an exciting joint effort. Carolin located the Spelt, despite being about to go to Africa. Several people helped finding transport, thanks for that. I could arrange same-day payment out of my Berlin account, and John called many shippers and found one who can collect and deliver before Easter.

What we are buying is organic Spelt, which is direct from harvest so not sold as seed: it will then need to be cleaned, sieved and prepared for planting here at Weston. John will know more about this when he sees it next week. It is coming from a very beautiful part of the former East Germany, near the border with Czechoslovakia, so has a good provenance. (For those who want to look up the area, DE 96364 Marktrodach-Seibelsdorf)

Brilliant team effort everyone. Very excited to be on the next stage.

Wow! Well done Carolin, John, Grahame and all! Very happy that we can go with our vote and experiment with something different, because that's what the Our Field project allows.

A picture from Herr Backer of the Spelt ready to ship..
Spelt in bags

very sexy spelt picture 😃

That's a lot of seed!

The bags are arriving in the UK tonight, so I'm hoping that they manage to get them here tomorrow so that we can sow the seed before , or over, the weekend.