Allow GreenNet to join CoTech

I have known various people at GreenNet for a long time (back in the days when Sheffield didn't have a pop, Windows didn't ship with TCP/IP and to get online I used a 14.4k modem and a long distance phone call to them) and I agree they would be great to have on board and they are a good fit practicaly and ethically, however the email to the contact list from GreenNet said:

We have recently been investigating (with www.hced.co.uk) about whether to formally become a coop, and have mapped out the next steps.

Shouldn't we wait for them to actually be a co-op? In the meantime it would be great to see them at Wortley Hall etc.

@asimong @sionwhellens apologies - could you add which CoTech member you're voting on behalf of when voting please?

Calverts!

I have history with GreenNet (further back even than @chriscroome) and there is a deep irony in their joining CoTech. But that is old old history and if anyone is interested (which I doubt) it's for the pub. So, I'm voting yes.

Very happy to support this proposal but am a bit confused if they are not yet a coop. I'm not one for sticking to tight rules / regs but "Co-operative Technologists (aka CoTech) is a network of co-operatives that sell tech/digital services."

Are we saying that acting co-operatively is enough to be defined as a co-op?

Can anyone clarify this for me otherwise I don't see how we can agree to this given our current definition of membership?

Thanks!

Yep, indeed, if they are not formally a co-op according to the House of Companies, at least they need to work as a co-op (1 person = 1 vote, fair distribution of capital ownership [if any], etc.)

An organisation that can hang together for 30 years through 'cooperation' is a coop in everything but domain name IMHO.

But, as Aaron notes, the CoTech definition is quite clear so it would be difficult to agree currently.

(Meantime, if anyone from GreenNet has a tent and would like to join 'us' - CoTechies & G.splinters in field in Kent weekend commencing 22/07 let @andyrcroft know :) )

As this is a public discussion, GreenNet have asked if they can come and add some clarification. I'll approve their account on Loomio.

Just a reminder when voting - please say which CoTech member org you are voting on behalf of. There are a number of people here with accounts who are not CoTech members. See this decision for details.

I should also note we do currently have

If you are already part of a tech co-op (or an organisation that is practising cooperative principles and in the process of formally becoming a co-op) then we’ve already tried to find you to invite you to the network.

on our join page.

Hi all,

Thanks for your enthusiastic consideration of our membership.

GreenNet has been operating on cooperative type principles since before 1990, but have not yet become a formal coop, as Chris wrote above. Our site explains as follows:

“A collective organisation is one in which a group of people work together on the basis of equal benefit to all. There is no hierarchical structure, the organisation is jointly operated, with all staff members having equal decision-making powers, and equal responsibility. In the case of the GreenNet collective, staff members do not benefit from GreenNet's profits, or have any shares in GreenNet. GreenNet is owned by the GreenNet Educational Trust (GET), a registered charity (registered charity no. 1037080), so it is not strictly a workers' co-op, but functions similarly. Any profit made by GreenNet goes directly into GET towards the implementation of projects”

We reckon that satisfies the first part of the criteria, and our work on transforming into a formal coop with HCD should quite neatly satisfy the second part. We can provide more details on that if needed?

Hi Ed, has GreenNet formally endorsed the ICA Co-operative identity, values & principles?

I'd also be interested in the process you are going through -- have you agreed that you will become a co-op or is this an option you are evaluating?

Hi Chris,
As far as I know, GreenNet haven’t endorsed the ICA values and principles, though we have done a lot of work with the ICA over the years.
The Rochdale principles are a core part of our operating values though, we just haven’t taken the step of publicly committing to them.
We have made a collective decision to become a co-op, yes. I'd be happy to explain what we'd need to do to get there if you're interested, briefly that would be to form a new co-op which would buy out our NFP collective.
I hope that clarifies matters! 😃

Hi Ed, would it be too much as ask that GreenNet endorses the 7 principals? It is one of the criteria for a .coop and in the same way that you can buy a .coop while in the process of registration etc I think it makes sense to encourage organisations that in the process of becoming a co-op to join CoTech.

I don't see why not!
That would be a compulsory part of the process of becoming a co-op in any case, which we have already committed to.

@shaunfensom what would it take for you to change your mind?

I've voted against because I want to use CoTech's power to incentivise GreenNet to conclude their deliberations and take action promptly to become a 'proper coop' and a strong member of CoTech.
The cooperative movement is greatly weakened in my view by organisations behaving like cooperatives but not actually being cooperatives. I creates confusion and grey areas. We should be promoting a strong and clear position. Don't get me wrong - -having GreenNet as a member of CoTech will greatly strengthen CoTech and add an enormous amount of value, and I can't wait for that day to come. They just need to be a proper co-op first.

Ed, do you have a timescale for when you will formally become a co-op? Have you started your registration process or are you still at the stage of agreeing what legal form you will take etc?

Hi Chris, Would it help if we got someone from HCD to confirm that we've engaged them to work with us on our transition?
We certainly assumed that we fit CoTech's stated criteria pretty neatly:

"a tech co-op (or an organisation that is practising cooperative principles and in the process of formally becoming a co-op)"

Ed, it isn't that I don't believe you it's just that I know hard it is for established organisations to change their legal form, there is a, co-op in everything but name, near me in Sheffield, Lembas, they are fab but haven't quite got there yet and have spent a lot of time on their legal form over the years, I guess I'm a little concerned that you might not get there in the end and it seems that @graham2 and @seanfenson have fears of this nature as well...?

Hi Chris. Thanks for clarifying. We are indeed in the process of formally becoming a co-op, but it's true that nothing in the future is certain.

We're quite grateful for all the help we have received from the co-op community as we navigate this process. We have found that changing the trading arm of a charity into a workers co-op is not straightforward, which is why we're currently seeking advice on how to do so in a way that satisfies the requirements of the Charities Commission. If anyone else has experience or expertise regarding such a change, we'd be interested in learning from your experience.

@edmaw I don't have any direct experience of what you are going through, however my suggestion would be to consider a multi-stakeholder model, our co-op and the New Internationalist and several others use the Somerset Rules which are based on the seven principals and allow great flexibility in the structure of the organisation, so for example the charity (and even clients) could have a set amount of say in the running of the co-op even though the workers have the majority.

The New Internationalist has a rule that the management committee has to be 75% workers and that is the only difference between employee members and readers / subscriber members. Our co-op might well have adopted something as simple as that if we had thought of it, but our rules are structured so that workers have 50% of the votes, clients and partners have 25% and investors have 25%.

Hi @chrischroome, we have indeed considered the multi-stakeholder model. However, even in that case the charity's ownership would be effectively diluted compared to the present situation (100% ownership). That would likely be considered a transfer of charity assets and there are strict rules about such things. So, I think we're really looking for a cheap or pro-bono charities lawyer at this point in the process!

HCD may already be accessing the expertise at Cooperatives UK on cooperatives and charities. If not, I'd strongly recommend that you contact them. They'll provide some advice and guidance free of charge, but will need to paid for the technical stuff. The legal office is very knowledgeable on both cooperatives and charities.

I agree with @graham2 (GreenNet need to move out of the grey area)

However, in answer to @chriscroome (what would make me change my mind) I would make a couple of points:

1. There is no legal definition of a co-op under English law: there is no particular legal form that you must adopt to be a co-op. There’s the Co-operative Society form (previously I&PS), but you don’t have to adopt that to be a co-op. There’s also the definition of a common ownership enterprise in the 1976 Industrial and Common Ownership act. But again that only offers options for being a co-op. Unless they've changed it, all that is required to be accepted by Cooperatives UK as a co-op is: a) accept the ICA values and principles, b) apply them. So in a sense, all GreenNet needs to do is that.

2. That said however, I think that having certain legal forms, a charity for example, may be an obstacle to applying the principles. It is arguably possible to engineer a co-op out of a share company (done that) and I imagine it is possible to do with a charity, but that would require some expert attention I think.

That is why I agree with @graham2

@shaunfensom said:

*Unless they've changed it, all that is required to be accepted by Cooperatives UK as a co-op is: a) accept the ICA values and principles, b) apply them. *

That seems like a reasonable requirement and one that is compatible with what we have on the join CoTech page, "an organisation that is practising cooperative principles" (though it might be clearer if "cooperative principles" was a hyperlink to the ICA co-operative principals).

The Webarchitects Co-operative vote is being cast as Disagree on this proposal, with the hope that (a) GreenNet are able to come to Wortley Hall in November and (b) GreenNet are able to endorse and apply the co-operative principals as soon as possible so that this vote can be changed to an Agree.

@chriscroome "....with the hope that (a) GreenNet are able to come to Wortley Hall in November"

Or even sooner, very much sooner, next week at Co-Tech summer camp 21/22/23 July

Hi,

We have reached a consensus of all members of the GreenNet collective that we ascribe to and apply the ICA co-operative principles in our operations. As stated earlier, we are still working on changing our legal structures, but we are committed to working as a worker co-operative in accordance with the ICA principles. So, an exciting step for us!

The votes per co-op were:

| CoTech Member                | Vote     |
|------------------------------+----------|
| Outlandish                   | Abstain  |
| Agile Collective             | Agree    |
| dtc innovation               | Agree    |
| Webarchitects Co-operative   | Agree    |
| Go Free Range                | Agree    |
| Fairmondo UK                 | Agree    |
| Cetis LLP                    | Agree    |
| Calverts                     | Agree    |
| Blake House Filmmakers Co-op | Agree    |
| wave                         | Agree    |
| Gildedsplinters              | Disagree |
| MC3                          | Disagree |
| CBN                          | Disagree |
| Open Data Services           | -        |
| MediaBlaze Hosts             | -        |
| Animorph                     | -        |
| Small Axe                    | -        |
| We Are Open Co-op            | -        |
| TABLEFLIP                    | -        |
| Open-ecommerce               | -        |
| media co-op                  | -        |
| Founders and Coders          | -        |
| Co-operative Web             | -        |
| Chapel Street Studio         | -        |
| Altgen                       | -        |
| Glowbox Design               | -        |

@shaunfensom @felixwave - could you tell me which CoTech member co-op you were voting on behalf of?

@chrislowis my vote on behalf of CBN

For the record, our vote (Agile Collective) can be changed to Agree following some (albeitlimited) discussion within the coop. Sorry for being able to change our vote before the deadline.

Thanks everyone - I'll post a summary of the proposal soon.

GreenNet are awesome so it'll be great to have them as members of CoTech at some point! :)

BTW @edmaw you might want to get in touch with Co-operative College because I think they recently went through a similar(ish) process...

The text above is easier to read on the proposal's page

Thanks to Ed Maw and @chrislowis for guiding this proposal through. I'd be interested in joining a discussion about membership criteria. From my point of view it's definitely not about joining Co-ops UK and getting a certificate - there are lots of certificated co-ops that are not very co-operative and vice versa. In this case, it does seem problematic that GreenNet is owned by an external organisation.

Perhaps one way of clarifying membership criteria is to run the proposal with a slightly different proposed member. For example
Folk Labs (http://www.folklabs.com/about-us/) are what we might consider a micro-co-op - two business partners that run the company as a co-op but don't have a certificate.

Would anyone object to Folk Labs joining without first getting a certificate? Should they add a page about "how to join our co-op" to their site? Anything else they should do?