Wed 7 Mar 2018 1:28AM

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LHB Loomio Helper Bot Public Seen by 401

Take a moment to let the group know a bit about who you are. Post a comment below.

What’s your role or approach to participation in this group? What should people know about you to understand where you’re coming from?


Jonathan Ogden Fri 9 Mar 2018 9:58PM

Hi, I'm Jonathan Ogden at-large member of the MNA. I enjoy Systems Dynamics and working hard to decentralize the decision-making of the Association to the neighbors at large.

This is a first step, I hope that neighbors will begin taking the time to come up with some awesome proposals/ideas in this space that can turn into neighborhood projects (we have the ability to become fiscal sponsors and donate to/fund through SE Uplift grants).

Let's make something cool together!


Briar Rose Tue 13 Mar 2018 7:42PM

Thanks for making this happen Jonathan.


Mark McConnell Sat 10 Mar 2018 9:14PM

@jonathanogden2, thanks for giving members a tool to inform and debate one another, and to build support for things they're passionate about. It looks better than Facebook in principle, for encouraging volunteerism and bottom-up initiatives.

It's not an appropriate means for the MNA's official decision-making. Members have many ways to connect with and move each other, that don't imply MNA endorsement of their activities. If one of these is selected as the official one, the rest are demoted. Still, this is the most potentially valuable resource the new board has provided for the membership, in my opinion.

Would you be willing to add the requirement to use legal names, rather than online handles?


Jonathan Ogden Sat 10 Mar 2018 9:18PM

Oh I hear you, this is just the official platform for the membership communicate live survey data to the board.

I would consider it if you could get enough support from the membership, but would contest that if authentication can be handled on the back-end (through the member registration) this is more than adequate to resolve member disputes and removes any issues of someone not wanting to participate on a publicly-searchable forum (the MNC FB group moderator comes to mind, they're pretty adamant about that).

Why not try pitching your idea in a thread to the community?


Jonathan Ogden Sat 10 Mar 2018 9:19PM

Also for the record, decisions are still only official when conducted at an open public meeting (with quorum and yada yada). So this is simply a hub to generate ideas/data from the community.


Mark McConnell Sat 10 Mar 2018 9:39PM

I won't participate in public debates where some of us are in disguise. Either our identity is irrelevant because it's purely an exchange of ideas, or it's transparent to everyone who can read it. In this case, I can't see how identity is irrelevant, so I can't participate. I wish you success, regardless, Jonathan. If it works for bringing people together to share ideas, and if it gives you insight, its good.


Jonathan Ogden Sat 10 Mar 2018 10:04PM

Ok? I mean have you never had a conversation in a comments section before?

Sorry, I just find it a bit tenuous that you would be deterred by that alone. Plus, if I recall correctly, the request for a platform like this was actually yours (or at least we talked about it at that meeting)!

Come on, give it a try?


Mark McConnell Sat 10 Mar 2018 10:26PM

@jonathanogden2, it's your idea, and a good one. But anonymity is a problem for me. Have you ever been subjected to an anonymous smear campaign? If it's supposed to be MNA membership based, then anonymity is not appropriate.


Jonathan Ogden Sat 10 Mar 2018 10:34PM

I disagree, I'm saying it's very appropriate for a public-facing forum to allow each individual to manage their exposure. Have you ever had to do any systems management for user-end authentication?

Any issues you'd be able to experience could be handled just like any other web platform, report them and the user and the Coordinators (Loomio's name for admins) can help resolve the dispute. If it is severe enough, use the formal grievance process per the MNA bylaws.

It's all pretty cut and dry, and per my interpretation of this (and pending a review from ONI) I might push for at least the Board Meetings to be completely online:

That would allow that time to be used for more engagement at a physical general meeting, as well as allow everyone unable to attend (weekdays) a means to participate/review the meeting information. Additionally because it's already in text form it's much more conducive to accommodating the hearing impaired and multiple languages.

Please give it a chance, we can make it cool?


Mark McConnell Sat 10 Mar 2018 11:03PM

Coincidentally, this issue arose in a separate thread before I even raised my objection. It's a perfect example. Anonymous attacked the real-life name of another member. The Coordinator protected the unequal relationship, by guarding the identity of anonymous. This arrangement could be used to ruin a business or charity, while hiding behind the coordinator's power to protect anonymity.


Jonathan Ogden Sat 10 Mar 2018 11:16PM

"Could" is distinctly speculative, and given the history of the participants that's not the first time (or likely the last) that they'll be in that argument. I prefer self-regulating systems, if people can't be adults and work toward a solution (doesn't need to be fun/happy) then they don't have to participate.

The goal is equity not equality as far as I'm concerned, but my concerns are driven by neighbor input and consensus (so I'm open to discourse).


Dr Jack Sun 11 Mar 2018 5:24PM

Would you be willing to add the requirement to use legal names

If WHO it is that is talking matters more to you than WHAT it is they are saying, your priorities may be a little out of line! There is no easy way to make this an open platform if a requirement for every new member is that they provide proof of identity to moderators. And if your concern is that information could be leaked & used for ill purposes: your proposed method of gate-keeping still won't solve that.


Mark McConnell Mon 12 Mar 2018 12:09AM

@zx your anonymity is more important to you than knowing your neighbors. There's nothing you can learn from me about "priorities".


Kevin Provost Mon 12 Mar 2018 11:12PM

"Hi, I'm Kevin. That's my real name, and you can find out an awful lot about me with that information, so sharing it is an act of good faith. You?"
"Hi, thanks for the info. I'm using a fake name and fake info, but I would like my opinion to be heard."
That's not equity.


Jonathan Ogden Mon 12 Mar 2018 11:21PM

Hmm, I feel very often that middle-aged white "entrepreneurial" types, especially those in an "alternative" industry like cannabis, throw around the word "equity" without understanding what that really means, i.e. equity is not your opinion of what's fair, it is the institutional analysis of self-defined levels of comfort or accommodations of required effort for an individual to participate (per the Veil of Ignorance model).

That is to say, that you as a privileged person have zero input over what people who have other concerns may do, and the equity part comes from providing a platform where both of you can express your ideas comfortably. Additionally it is definitively based around existing observable trends in power dynamics, so cases like "reverse racism" and other nonsense are demonstrably able to be disproved.

Really though, what's with hang up on the name thing? I thought you people were all about The Marketplace of Ideas™ or whatever.


Kevin Provost Mon 12 Mar 2018 11:24PM

LOL "you people."


Jonathan Ogden Mon 12 Mar 2018 11:25PM

Ah right, sorry * Capitalists. ;)


Kevin Provost Mon 12 Mar 2018 11:28PM

All right, putting the anonymity thing aside, I'll say this. You've started a new venue and now I've seen you call Benjamin a pedant and me a middle-aged white capitalist. Since the equity part comes from providing a platform where all can express our ideas comfortably, I'm outski. Thanks for trying, I guess.


Jonathan Ogden Mon 12 Mar 2018 11:32PM

Aw, that's too bad. I just figured a little ribbing was something you could both handle given the precedent of the Facebook group (that place could get nasty quick).

I appreciate the engagement, and as a member the door is always open, but then again I would encourage all cis-white men to practice "stepping up by stepping back", so being a lurker for a while is perfectly reasonable.


Briar Rose Tue 13 Mar 2018 7:43PM

Hi Mark. I hope you stick around and use this platform 😀


Mark McConnell Wed 14 Mar 2018 1:38AM

Thank you for the welcome, Briar Rose. I'll likely stick around, but there is limited value in interacting with avatars instead of people, about matters that concern us face to face. I can use it to argue that point though.

Using the worst things about the internet is a bad prescription to address our ills. Social media have been used both ways in Montavilla. They've been used as a way to know one another better, or worse. To meet online regardless of real life barriers in ways that produce real life cooperation among differently minded people, or irresponsibly to spread slander that isolates you from people who don't know you. There is no speculation here. This is a fact that every one of us has experienced. Anonymity works in the wrong direction.


Jonathan Ogden Sat 10 Mar 2018 9:21PM

Also for reference, you can browse other groups that are public to get an idea of how to phrase posts/what kind of thing works in their decision environment (maybe it applies here if it's similar).
Loomio's main group is pretty excellent to learn from: https://www.loomio.org/g/WmPCB3IR/loomio-community


Dr Jack Sun 11 Mar 2018 5:19PM

Hello, I'm Bob and I've been in Montavilla for over 2 years now (wow!)

I love our neighborhood. While I'm not too active with the board, I've done a few things to help clean up the neighborhood a bit... picking up litter from Vestal's front lawn and otherwise along 82nd, getting rid of nazi graffiti, helping out at the warming shelter at times & donating blankets etc, and otherwise trying to be a good neighbor for the local unhoused.

One change I'd really hope to see in Montavilla would be the addition of a food coop, food bank, or some other solution to greater food access -- the neighborhood is a food desert outside of Hong Phat & that concerns me!


Briar Rose Tue 13 Mar 2018 7:44PM

Hi Bob, welcome to the loomio!


Sebastian Tue 13 Mar 2018 5:59PM

Hi, I'm Sebastian! I work for JOIN, a non-profit located on 81st and Clackamas in Montavilla. We provide houseless services, outreach, and retention support. I work on the data team. I'm looking forward to dialogue!


Briar Rose Tue 13 Mar 2018 7:44PM

Welcome Sebastian! Great to have you on here


Briar Rose Tue 13 Mar 2018 7:18PM

Hi, I'm Briar Rose Schreiber! I also go by Rose Raccoon online and I make music under the name PolymerWitch. I also am an MNA board member. I've served as Secretary to the board for the past six months, and now I'm hoping to focus more on event organizing. I would love to help get resources for you to put on your community event! Let's chat!


Jacob Tue 13 Mar 2018 9:18PM

Hi Everyone, My name is Richard Adams. I go by Jacob on line. I am elderly and disabled. I have lived in Montavilla on and off since 1989. I retired from the U.S. Army after 20 years active duty in 1989. I love Montavilla. and care very much about our neighborhood. I would hope I can help us become a wonderful place to live once again.


Jonathan Ogden Tue 13 Mar 2018 9:33PM

Glad to see you made it!


[deactivated account] Tue 27 Mar 2018 11:10PM

Hey, I'm Justin. I've lived in the neighborhood for about a year and a half. I'm a designer, avid video game nerd, amateur pit master, and now trying my hand at winemaking.

I've been spotty on my MNA meeting attendance, but am trying to get back into it.


Jonathan Ogden Tue 27 Mar 2018 11:12PM

Glad you made it, let's open this pit up.


David Linn Wed 28 Mar 2018 12:04AM

David Linn - I was born in Montavilla in the apartments behind Pho Van on 82nd. I have lived in several homes/apartments around the hood. I attended Vestal elem, Binnsmead Middle, and Madison High. I first joined MNA as secretary/treasurer in 2005 as part of an effort to start a volunteer library. I was vice chair & chair ‘06-‘07 and re-ran last year after returning to Montavilla from Parkrose Heights. My focus is outreach, parks and homeless services.