Sun 15 Sep 2019 8:26AM

Tertiary Education Policy - Discussion for publication

DG Daymond Goulder-Horobin Public Seen by 96


I wrote this awhile ago and will probably write up a proper publishable version of it as one of our frontline policies to engage with students around the country. Mostly I need to determine the costs of implementation, I wrote the below as a priority list.

"From looking at the recent proposal I posted it seems that the majority of individuals believe that adding in an optional Loan Living costs on top of a Universal Student Allowance so that the student may chose either to work and study or take the extra loan to focus solely on study.

I believe that as we work on the budget and start constructing it that we may be able to offer a housing subsidy for students living alone or in flats, as Colin England Suggested since they are the ones fronting the rent costs, for example those studying in Auckland.

At the moment I have prioritized the needs as follows

Universal Student Allowance - Take the pressure of students that need to work while studying. Without any attention to parental income.

Loan Living costs on top - Give Students the option to borrow more so that can fully focus on study and not have to worry about work at all, at least during the semester of study. This can be explained more if necessary.

Housing Subsidy - It is clear that students living alone or in a flat struggle to support themselves while those in a parental home should be OK (at least with USA). Therefore an additional entitlement could be put in place, different from the accommodation supplement or an expansion of it.

3 years free education - Eventually at some point we could hope to fully subsidize, support and nurture the education culture in New Zealand, as some would argue to the point where it rivals European countries. However I believe that this should be accounted for later on since in my view the sustainability of students during study is more important that improving welfare after study, (where we assume they will be able to find a job and improve there living standards anyway).

This is my view. Currently Labour wants to enact 3 years of free education first but I believe that it still means that students will struggle during study, they are also paying it with the expected growth in income of New Zealand which means they would be holding everything constant for the next 5 years and doing it instead of proposed tax cuts.

In essence once we breakdown the budget we can see how far we can or should go with improving equity in this sector. For instance perhaps we can fit the first two points and leave the subsidy for later on and so forth. I could also look into Primary/Secondary school education a bit later and gain a position on that but I want to just stick to one thing at a time.

Also just to mention, I don't hold a particular grudge towards Student loan debt and I treat it as an Investment that Students make, for instance mine is pretty high but I know that the current system of paying 12c in a dollar is manageable and I will have a higher quality of life after finishing study. (perhaps there is also room there to reduce payment thresholds and amounts to reduce burden) However I did have to work while studying which affect my focus a bit.

I've also attached the Raw proposal that was on the meetup

What are your thoughts? Do you think the priorities are setup correctly or should we be focused somewhere else?

EDIT: Have thought about making a work placement Compulsory to ensure that work experience is included in the education"

I believe this can be used as a flagship for approaching students once it goes out, message me on the Internet Party discord or comment if you are interested in helping out.

Original link: https://www.loomio.org/d/SLAGsFoP/tertiary-education-policy


Geoff Anderson Sat 21 Sep 2019 2:12AM

‘Accommodation costs’ & ‘who should pay for your education’ are a small part of a much bigger argument of ‘what is the value of tertiary qualifications(?)’.
Most tech qualifications are perishable. Eg. Coding 2 yrs, electrotech 4 yrs, engineering maybe 5.
Tertiary institutions train 3 - 4 times more people than there are positions to fill and if you are not working in your trade by that time…that's a loss [to get you to class they make salesman promises]
Such institutions won’t allow you to link training to available work and so cut their profit by 3/4 or more. (Fees will rise, somebody has to pay)

Suggesting that everybody should get 3 yrs free also seems problematic. Look around; not everybody is into learning. It’s not about smarts, it’s about intent. If you are just taking something that is free, you probably wont try as hard as if you really wanted to be there and your marks will show it.
You can’t take back the offer if they are failing because you know how it would be spun.
I think it would require entrance exams and decisions as to which training it should apply to.

My 3rd point is a politics gripe about conformity: I have enjoyed more than 3 yrs training +++. (Its what you make of it, how you use it) Too much knowledge & understanding makes you unsuitable to be a slave!
You can’t argue with facts against “Authority” because Authority doesn’t care, can’t care because its about conformity.
If you want to know what causes Gravity (EASY) but the understanding mocks the religion known as science.
We are programmed by society for society. Mostly it works for us, but sometimes it is so frustrating.
I can be contacted by name at a Snap in New Zealand.


Daymond Goulder-Horobin Sun 22 Sep 2019 1:06AM

Fair point, there might be room for a unit to investigate where the job shortages lie and encouraging students to train in areas that are needed most. A lot of institutes mandate a work experience component roughly 3-6 months which in some cases can lead to a job but not always.

I would say the value of the qualification itself is based around the grades and even then on its own is not worth much, I always encourage current students I talk to, to go out and join student clubs and increase the value of there education, and perhaps get a part-time job to show some work experience on record.

Thats to the student though, I think the Internet Party in the current policy talks about pushing for more summer internships for students currently in study. We would still push for that today.


irreversiblechaos Wed 25 Sep 2019 10:22AM

Hello before you read any further you should watch this about starting a movement. The first thing you need to figure out is do you want to change the system or just alter the system. If you want to alter a system then you might as well join a major party and try to get your ideas through that way but if you want to completely change a system then you need to put your ideas out their and the more radical the better

You need to think from the position of a voter if you can't make the 5% why bother so if you have a position similar to another party then they would vote for them if they have a better chance. As effectively nobodies you ideas must be radically different and so radically different you make a lot of people angry. There is a saying first they ignore us then they ridicule us then they kill us then we win. Think of Trump and his wall your view of Trump is irrelevant he won.

So get people angry against the system and offer an actual alternative. Why do we have universities that are run like businesses? why do we have universities at all? what is the purpose of education and schools? I would have schools up to 12 years teaching children how to garden and cook it would be done in multiple languages and maths and reading/writing would be about 3 hours a week. most of the time would be spent outside most early education is irrelevant.

You could have a UBI for over 18's and a lump sum at 23 years so if you choose a university education or trade you can borrow for it then pay it off and if you don't go you just get the lump sum. The cost of living and accommodation is the big money so either drive house prices down dramatically ~50% to 80% or build accommodation to rent at low cost.

Don't think of what is, think of what could be and don't limit yourself to the current economic monetary model.



TanguyRaton Wed 25 Sep 2019 5:17PM

I had the chance to study in France where i got a free education for the 2 first years and paid education for the next 3 years (master degree) at the equivalent of the minimum wage (we still have a few of these schools in france inherited from the welfare state). I also had university years in france and in the usa.
I actually had quite a sympathy for the pirate party for its progressive positions on digital, but when the education and learning sectors are under digitalisation (learning management systems etcetera). I must ask a few questions, in particular about the "économic assumptions" you outline:
-firstly, students always struggle during study. Actually they dont only struggle, they work. It is very common that researchers use them to participate in research production. They also create bonds and human links that will later participate in the level of trust people have with each other in society when working, innovating, deciding. From my experience, the feeling of equality of wealth (ie : paid studies, likse they do in denmark and like they claim in some students movements in canada if i remember well) seemed to be an incentive to create stronger bonds with my comrades. But maybe it is just a "french tropism"?
Also it could be seen as a "trust capital" you get as a reward of meritocraty, and that you are afterwards more likely to contribute in an altruistic way to society for the preservation of common goods etcetera. Also many universities where you have to pay to attend the classes can be attended without paying, you just dont get access to the "alumni" network, and dont create the same bonds (for inequality reasons i guess).
You can try to convert this to $ with concept of opportunity cost and integration to the society externalities cost of climate change or social cohesion or social communities, although that's a bit like hiding the "assumptions" behind numbers.
I have been involved in some research production, and i must admit one of the most difficult tasks is sometimes to get access to data.
With learning management systems, universities seem to compete with digital enterprises to acess the "education" markets. There are of course interesting pedagogy innovation you can use with digital (inversed class or others examples i can provide but i don think it's the point here). On this matter, i would just pinpoint that the myth of "accessing" the knowledge more easily has to be questionned, mainly in two ways:
-historicised data is almost never accessible for free in the internet and kept by the researchers, and the average skilled internet user cant confirm or infirm the results
-learning management systems might have an impact on reducing diversity of points of view on the teachings in the sense it can concentrate the control of designing the coures and contents in the hands of fewer people in universities (and in the long run to some firms investing in lms)
I dont know how to convert these "risks" in $, but they might be questions to be asked, especially when digital tools and infrastructures is often faster today in many developing countries than basic infrastructures.


Daymond Goulder-Horobin Thu 26 Sep 2019 4:35AM

NZ has it a bit tougher, mostly my comments about students struggling come from the media, obviously the reputation of the MSM is low but I tend to value the opinions of those that come forward.

Increase in struggling university students accessing hardship funds

I agree in that working to gain experience and connections is a good thing, in NZ our living costs are quite high and usually a student living alone or in a flat may have to work 20+ hours with full time study commitments to make the weekly bill. One of our original points was to increase the number of student internships during the summer to give them a bit more work experience.


TanguyRaton Thu 26 Sep 2019 1:37PM


Did you remove the comments on your proposal online?

Is it not counterproductive for debating?

I wanted to add a point with the assumption you get more
competitive and involved in work when you have to pay a loan :
does the free education in cuba makes their doctors less skilled
than other universities? Apparently many people from countries of
south america go there to get care for critical cases because they
have an excellent reputation


Daymond Goulder-Horobin Fri 27 Sep 2019 3:34AM

Not intentionally, will check. It was an initial discussion from 3 years ago. When our forum went down it might have be archived. Will see if I can get anything.

This was one of the decisions made awhile back:

I don't think the market would be that much more competitive, I am fine with students getting free education but I want to focus on students in study to make sure they can have a fair go at the degree they have chosen.


irreversiblechaos Tue 11 Feb 2020 8:53AM

Give every person $130000 on their 23rd birthday then they can decide what they want themselves pay off study debt or just get a job simple.