Loomio

inviting people to join this group

Panayotis Antoniadis PublicSeen by 127

Should we go ahead and invite people that might be interested or perhaps make suggestions in this thread and advance if there are no objections?

In any case, this is the last thread I create, for now :-)

Petros At FreeLab

Well, I coined the concept, but I am not an owner of anything here. It is an open group, so go ahead. Just please, mind the goal of it.

Matthew Slater

I need to discuss things efficiently. Please regard me as an outside expert. I need to focus on key players and don't have time to read long discussions. I'm happy just talking to you and getting more involved later in person in Greece.

Panayotis Antoniadis

OK! In any case, I mention here some people I could contact in case there is any issue: Brett Scott, Jens Martignoni from Zurich, Giuseppe Littera from Sardex, Chris Cook (UCL), collaborators from the COMPARE project, who are also more or less "new" in this area (Alexandros Kioupkiolis, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, Paolo Dini, LSE), and Theodoros Karyotis (activist in Thessaloniki involved in Micropolis).

Matthew Slater

I know brett
I know Jens slightly
I never met Guiseppe
I know Chris slightly
I don't know the others.
Maybe the problem is that I don't know yet what this forum is hoping to achieve. Is this a design and implementation discussion? Are we planning something?
Are we just sharing ideas?

Panayotis Antoniadis

I guess there is no clear goal yet, but we could define one :-)

In my mind, a possible way to frame it could be like a "think tank for Greece" where outside experts like Matthew share their experiences with interested greeks, who provide some local knowledge and context, and all together try to think of a few concrete steps toward a realistic project ... or something like this?

Petros At FreeLab

Panayotis is right. I am really happy somebody could phrase it much better than I did.
I will be happy to learn from you, to participate whatever I can and to act as a go-to anarchist if the whole work goes too statist. :-)

Matthew Slater

A think tank is good, but think tanks don't usually implement solutions.

Petros At FreeLab

So, an unusual think tank, then?

Seriously speaking, I have already started looking for supporters. As soon as I get somebody serious, I will bring them here. And yes, I already started arranging some modest funding -- in an unusual way, as usual. :-)

Matthew Slater

OK but who those supporters are and what that funding demands are serious design considerations, so they need to be stated.
Here's a suggestion.
Make a web site in English and Greek called 'Credit Commons for Greece'
On it, explain why if Greece succeeds in keeping the Euro together, Greece in deflation needs a liquidity tool for business and/or for less formal exchange.
Talk about the solidarity economy initiatives and how they need joining up in order to scale. Read this to help you https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pBk9mBWXssojrIo-gyD0bd1zu3wAZTyQjo9r1IE-Z4U/edit#
Talk about the kinds of partners you are actively seeking to make this a reality.
Talk about the kind of money you might need to roll out a proof of concept, excluding PR
Show awareness of the Varoufakis B Plans and how these plans fit in to that.
Mention the benefits of blockchains and how they enable money systems without centralised trust and the people don't need permission to create money any more.
Mention the international experts and what they have brought to the project already.
Presto!
You have a think tank, an agenda, a project, a philosophy, and a direction. Maybe its time to pull it all together. Before you have the answer, you need the question! We English know this because of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy!

Petros At FreeLab

This is really impressive and perhaps I will be able to set up the website you pictured -- as soon as I find somebody Greek speaking to make it :-) . I will surely start writing up an outline, following your suggestions here and in another thread.

Matthew Slater

Petros we haven't been introduced. I assumed from your name that you were greek and hence greek speaking. Perhaps it would be good to introduce ourselves more formally.
I learned to program in my 20s and then started making Drupal software for LETS in 2004. In 2008 I went full time moneyless nomad networking and co-founded Community Forge, which hosts around 120 active LETS groups. Now I'm building CES 2.0 in Drupal and working on developing the intertrading proposal I mentioned elsewhere and looking to do more teaching and human work such as this MOOC http://iflas.blogspot.com/2014/12/money-and-society-mooc.html.

Petros At FreeLab

:D I am not good in formal behaviours, but I will do my best.
I am a traveling storyteller (in an archetypical sense), currently in transition from anarchopositivism to Bookchin's communalism. I am acting as a full time social contributor in Thessaloniki. My base website is https://freelab2014.wordpress.com

And no, I am not formal in any sense whatsoever. :-)

Panayotis Antoniadis

hehe, yes I also thought that Petros is greek! This makes me the only greek in this group, which is a big responsibility I cannot take :-) (especially if you think that I am not an expert in CCs and I don't live in Greece)

So, before saying goodbye for today, I would like to add a point that I think is important:
This obviously needs to be lead by Greek people. There are many initiatives in Greece and I am sure they have similar discussions between them right now.

But what is important to note is that in Greece there is a lot of polarization and most of these initiatives are "coloured" politically; and they are often somehow "exclusive" (if not intentionally, for sure it happens unintentionally),

I would need more time to explain, but I will just say that I believe that to this end the role of external experts can be very beneficial. The ‘Credit Commons for Greece’ goes into the right direction but depending on how and from whom will start, there is the danger to engage and affect only the "one side". But for an alternative economy to work in a sustainable way, we need also the "other side" to be part of it.

I will jump to my suggestion: before setting up a web site I think that some key people need to meet in person and decide a strategy that has some new elements compared to what has been tried in the past, and an inclusive and pragmatic vision given the current social, economic and political reality in Greece.

The CommonFest is a good opportunity for this to bootstrap and perhaps there is already sth planned and we could join. If not, this is in my opinion a first concrete step that we could take: to organize a "credit commons assembly" and invite all people involved in such initiatives to start a serious discussion. We could even invite Varoufakis to listen! :-)

Petros At FreeLab

If you can keep Mr. V from talking ;-)
From my side, while better part of my soul is Greek, I will be more than happy to see this project managed and developed by anybody wishing to. As I said -- it is not a business project for me, it is the necessary (I believe) contribution to the society I love. So, whoever wishes to push it ahead, be my guest. :-)
Meanwhile, I will do my best to act as a placeholder for some "True Greeks" ;)
Panayotis, would you care to start a subgroup for the assembly organization? I volunteer Thessaloniki as a location, if nobody minds.

Panayotis Antoniadis

The only reason I think this should be started by Greeks is that because this needs to be rooted in localities and it can succeed at scale only if there are many strong and self-sustained local initiatives. And speaking the language and knowing in depth the culture is a very important requirement in my opinion. Personally, living abroad for 12 years makes me feel already an "outsider" and entitled mostly to share ideas :-)

As for the assembly I think it would work best at a location where there are already some people gathered and perhaps the CommonFest is ideal. I will think of it, contact some people I know who could take the lead, and get back to you as soon as I have something concrete to propose.

In the mean time, please don't wait for me ... things are very complex anyway and noone knows the secret of success. It is a "multitude-like" approach that I think will work best :-)