Loomio

Who are to be invited to Loomio?

A altruism Public Seen by 133
A

altruism Thu 13 Sep 2012 12:12AM

Who are to be invited to Loomio now that the evaluation period comes to an end (today)?

A

altruism Thu 13 Sep 2012 12:26AM

Sean, have you any ideas already how we are going to communicate to the decision that Diaspora is now going to use Loomio as its community governance platform?

T

tortoise Thu 13 Sep 2012 2:59AM

Why not make an open invitation on the D stream and let people in who want an invite? This could be a buffer from people flooding github or get satisfaction or other tools. If someone doesn't want to read a post or not participate then let them decide that.

What may happen is that the process of "chaos" will shake out and some self-organization will occur. People will flock together where their interests lay and if there is momentum it will become evident. That is useful information for everyone. Let's trust that we can deliberate even if there is disagreement or reservation.

It may be that we ask Loom devs to give us pruning tools to delete branches that may die on the vine or maybe to move them to an archive, just out of the main thoroughfare. Or maybe they will make moderating tools to help us if they see there is a lot of abuse here. Still, can we just have trust that people will have good will here and they will act like grownups? I'd like to do that.

If we are for freedom of speech, then let's walk the talk. That will speak loudly and without words! :)

ST

Sean Tilley Thu 13 Sep 2012 3:47AM

I'd be willing to offer a good compromise: how about, as a good first step, we get a group of about 30 more people directly invited to help vote on some initial governance issues, then after maybe two or three weeks, we open up further once we've got some solid guidelines to go by.

There are a few communities that have knowledge of the governance of other FOSS projects that could provide some excellent insight on things we as a community might not have even thought about before, and if it helps to put together a well-oiled machine before we open the floodgates, then we should rustle up some volunteers that know a thing or two about getting this project to where it needs to be.

ST

Sean Tilley Thu 13 Sep 2012 3:48AM

Step two, of course, could involve opening the proverbial floodgates.

T

tortoise Thu 13 Sep 2012 6:25AM

What terrible thing can happen by just inviting anyone on the stream who wants in?

I'm not saying we put this out in the public and let anyone in, someone should at least be a member of a pod.

Everyone knows who's been around for a while. Everyone will know if an upstart is causing trouble just to cause trouble. Don't you think it's possible that the gesture of letting new people in and welcoming their voices will bode well over all (and in the long term) for the community that we want to build, above and beyond the risks or fears of someone just behaving badly?

Anyway, who's to say that we set up all these "structures" now and then when the floodgates open, as you put it, people just bypass it and the infrastructure caves in anyway?

Why not just let people choose where they want to congregate and let them say what they want?

I agree this kind of free-for-all is not productive in github. But that was the only thing close to registering a bug that a simple user could do. I was never able to understand getsatisfaction. The irony, eh?... I just didn't get it! :)

Let Loom be the etchasketch for people to air out whatever they want. If there is momentum on something that develops here, community leaders can further discuss it (or just report it to share it with the larger community) on the CMS, etc., while a lead dev might act as a moderator and translate the actions in more technospeak on how that would be reflected in the code or in action on github.

This new form of discourse would be certainly better than having drama on the stream and cruft at github or diasporaproject.org.

For these reasons, I am reticent to go down the route you propose because I think it may shut people out who may have good ideas. It may also signal to the larger community that the core devs still want the last say on matters, and are not sincere in opening this up.

T

tortoise Thu 13 Sep 2012 6:41AM

Here's another thought I just had. If we do as I suggest, that to be here you must have an account on a pod, then it may also increase numbers at people's pods if members know they can actually have some influence on where the project goes. The news of that may attract more people to join. That certainly is not something that Google+ or FB offers to their users, a platform to voice their desires and concerns! I don't think we should underestimate the power of that! :)

ST

Sean Tilley Thu 13 Sep 2012 7:22AM

While that's an interesting thought, unfortunately we don't have a good "Sign In With Diaspora" system right now, to verify that users in our group are actually on D*. This sounds like a minor qualm, but really we're left with a good-faith system for now, which really doesn't have a good way to scale up. It's not a bad suggestion, but maybe in the future we could revisit that.

If you want to just invite old regulars that have been around for a while (rather than just anybody), I guess that wouldn't be a bad starting point. Perhaps it would be wise to create a quick proposal, that way everyone can at least go through the motions of accepting it (probably unanimously) to signify that everyone is in consensus over this approach. After all, we've just spent most of the day discussing policies and guidelines, it wouldnt hurt to see what works and what needs further tweaking.

JR

Jason Robinson Thu 13 Sep 2012 8:47AM

I'd say invite everyone who wants to join. It's the only way. It's not like everyone wants to participate.

Sean, if we vote on this (or something else) could you post something on the blog?

F

Flaburgan Thu 13 Sep 2012 9:47AM

@Madamephilo : everyone who wants to join here just have to ask for an invit. No problem about that.

But I think we have to organize ourselves. Make a strong structure, etc. And a first step could be discuss on Diaspora before come here to vote. I imagine something in 3 steps :

  1. Talk about a bug, a feature, an idea on diaspora using hashtags. A first debate.
  2. When Idea is clear and well prepared, come here to submit it to the vote
  3. If the idea is voted, go to github to open a thread about it (or elsewhere if it isn't about Diaspora code).

With that, we will not see a lot of new subjects here (i mean more than 30 by hour, which would be unprocessable) and idea will be really prepared so we don't have to debate during hours, we can take a decision quickly.

Moreover, on Diaspora, everybody (including those who never heard about loom.io) can participate.

We just have to promote some hashtag (#whatcanidofordiaspora, #diasporatranslation, #diasporasuggestion, etc..) and... here we go !

FS

Florian Staudacher Thu 13 Sep 2012 11:49AM

I am very much for a two-step process as outlined by Sean. I mean, the group currently has 'only' 45 members, and I am having trouble keeping up with the discussions as it is...

G

goob Thu 13 Sep 2012 7:29PM

If we're going to open Loomio up to more people, we'll need to work out a system re creating new proposals, groups and so on, so that this only happens in agreed circumstances; or we'd need to as Loomio to work out a system of deciding how many email notifications we receive, as I can't see any way of doing this. I've been getting loads of emails over the past week - once there are more people, this could increase exponentially if one of the above two isn't implemented.

JH

Jonne Haß Thu 13 Sep 2012 7:32PM

I guess we'll be able to turn of mail notifications, loomio is a very young project ,)

For duplicates I'd say just pointing to the old discussion, waiting a day and then letting the admin(s) delete the whole discussion (is that possible already Sean?) is the way to go as long as we can handle it. If we outgrow of that we can get back to the issue and see how loomio has developed till then.

T

tortoise Thu 13 Sep 2012 8:52PM

I think it's great talking about these things!

@Sean: First let me say thanks for your efforts for starting this presence here on Loom. I think it's a great tool with a lot of potential for our community.

I can see it would be too difficult to monitor whether someone has an account here or not, so I misspoke. Perhaps we say we encourage an account. I think that Jason is right. Not everyone is going to participate here.

And even if people come from the outside who don't have an account, don't you think eventually they will want one? So I think I will actually be more radical and let anyone who wants to be a member be a member. Maybe the only "requirement" is that an existing member must invite you in.

I mean IRC doesn't require an invite. You just create an account. And if things need to move into a private discussion, people can create new groups to convene and speak more privately. I think that is possible here too.

Do people get out of hand in IRC? Do people survive? I think they do.

I will admit that we will require organizing tools to quell the chaos if it becomes detrimental. Like allowing me to set priority tags to the activity here or subscribing to discussions, I'm not sure.

It is hard to keep up on discussions here, but that is because of the UI, not because of the amount of content. If there is a lot of content, could it mean that people are bursting with things to say or to suggest? Why not give it the space?

I'm sure we can advocate, making our voices heard to Loom what changes we would like to see here to help us do better. And if you think about it, if we did that, then we are doing EXACTLY what I'd like to see happen at Diaspora. For users to have some say in what would help us do what we want to do.

Since Loom is committed to creating a tool that accommodates political discourse, I'm sure they want our feedback. They do not presume that they know ahead of time if the tool will work or not. They want us to use it and they want us to succeed in using their tool. At least that is my take on it. :)

T

tortoise Thu 13 Sep 2012 9:04PM

@Flaburgan: I agree that there is need for more organization. I think it will come, naturally! :)

Using Loom for discussion about where the community goes and where the D* tool goes is better than discussing these things on the stream, IMO. There is a better archival process here, and on the stream things melt away.

That does not mean I think people should be dissuaded from bring concerns up on the stream. Only that Loom becomes the record of voices, about how we feel about things, and what actions we look to take.

In the past, using the stream ended up causing bad feeling and a sense of being ignored for some folks. I'm not saying it matters anymore what the particulars were back then, but why not learn from our collective mistakes?

If I sit and think about it, the main cause for miscommunications is not giving a space for people to discuss.

I do think promoting awareness by posting hashtags on the stream to let people know that there is a discussion happening here is a great idea!

JR

Jason Robinson Thu 5 Jun 2014 8:09AM

Hey yo, bumping an old thread.

Loomio introduced better privacy controls, and I think ours need "opening up" since now it's possible :)

Right now we accept anyone who requests to join, but now Loomio also allows "open" setting - which wasn't available before. I propose we change to that.

I also propose we set "Discussion privacy" to "Public only" - we don't need private talking here - let's stay transparent. This setting was also not available before.

Image attached of what I propose the new settings would be (arrow=new setting).

JR

Poll Created Thu 5 Jun 2014 8:10AM

Change diaspora* Loomio community group settings Closed Fri 13 Jun 2014 9:08AM

Outcome
by Jason Robinson Tue 25 Apr 2017 5:15AM

Let's open up :D

Loomio introduced better privacy controls, and I think ours need “opening up” since now it’s possible :)

Right now we accept anyone who requests to join, but now Loomio also allows “open” setting - which wasn’t available before. I propose we change to that.

I also propose we set “Discussion privacy” to “Public only” - we don’t need private talking here - let’s stay transparent. This setting was also not available before.

See this comment: https://www.loomio.org/d/tKJhNi0Q/who-are-to-be-invited-to-loomio#comment-122914

Results

Results Option % of points Voters
Agree 100.0% 22 ST FS JH T JR F EG G M DM PH D IGM L SM SVB S TS N KAK
Abstain 0.0% 0  
Disagree 0.0% 0  
Block 0.0% 0  
Undecided 0% 88 JL BK DS MS TS AA S CB HF BO DM GC JH M G AX PC PP BB LP

22 of 110 people have voted (20%)

EG

Erwan Guyader
Agree
Thu 5 Jun 2014 8:19AM

Let's make it easy to contribute.

KAK

Karthikeyan A K
Agree
Thu 5 Jun 2014 8:25AM

Agreed. Openness should be our goal. That's what sets us apart from facebook and twitter.

G

goob
Agree
Sun 8 Jun 2014 3:56PM

Definitely free up sign-ups. I'm just trying to think whether there are any situations in which a private discussion/vote would be necessary. I can't think of any, and it's not something we'd want to encourage in any case.

ST

Sean Tilley Mon 9 Jun 2014 10:33PM

Can we skip waiting the 3 days and just close the vote and open up the group already? :)

D

diasp_eu Fri 13 Jun 2014 7:10PM

We should post on our diaspora blog: https://joindiaspora.com/posts/4246552

JR

Jason Robinson Fri 13 Jun 2014 10:25PM

@flaburgan or someone else - want to make a quick post on the blog too?

JR

Jason Robinson Fri 13 Jun 2014 10:25PM

(or maybe just copy the status message :P - I wrote it but I've no access to the blog)

G

goob Sun 15 Jun 2014 10:50AM

I'm not convinced this needs publishing on the blog. It's something of interest to people who are already in Diaspora and want to get more involved, so publishing from Diaspora HQ as you've done is the most appropriate thing.

Anyone who gets into Diaspora in the future won't have encountered the sign-up hurdle to Loomio so won't need a blog post to tell them that it's now open.

D

diasp_eu Sun 15 Jun 2014 1:13PM

I'm taking the approach that more communication is better than less. Do you know who reads the blog? What's the purpose of the blog? Sure there was less communication in the past. We should blog about anything that we are passionate about...

JR

Jason Robinson Sun 15 Jun 2014 2:11PM

@goob I agree with @diaspeu ... more communication means a more active looking organisation.

G

goob Sun 15 Jun 2014 4:59PM

There's also the danger of providing too much information, bombarding people with things they don't need to know about.

That's why I suggested here that we discuss properly what belongs on the blog (and what doesn't) before we really get going with blogging. It's only a few days since the last blog post, so it's not exactly as though a new post is needed urgently. Let's plan first and post later, rather than the other way around.

If this is agreed to be something that should appear on the blog, it will need writing in a different way from the DHQ post, I think, as it's a different audience (will need an intro to Loomio and why and how we use it). At the moment I'm afraid this isn't something I could take on.

F

Flaburgan Mon 16 Jun 2014 7:45AM

it certainly needs to be reformulated but I think it's a nice thing to point that we are open to discussion and suggestions. So I would vote for a post about that on the blog.

If someone wants to add it on the pad and work on it, ping me here when it will be ready and I will be happy to post it.

R

rebeka_catalina Tue 8 Jul 2014 5:35PM

Hy there :-)

I've just a 1 or 2 hours ago heard about loomio and this diaspora group the first time. This morning I put a public post about the changes since the last diaspora-update in connection with the notifications. I posted a question, because I wasn't sure if the notification's behavior is just locally (in my browser only) another than before or not. One or two comments later I knew that it had changed globally - so I posted my oppinion and again some comment later somebody said : "Most people of those whom got asked, wanted it this way" So my next question was : "How can that be ? I haven't been asked for anything at all - where is that place ? Where can I tell my oppinion about something in connection with Diaspora ?" Then he gave me the link to loomia. The first I wanted to do : writing a thread an ask about this topicm but I found this one so I write in here - I hope it's ok ?? There were very different oppinions in here about who should be allowed to be here (feels very strange). I'm not in anger or something like this. I came here, because there are some things on Diaspora I'd like to discuss and because I'd like to take part in here as far as I can. I'm not really a developer, but I not so very far away from some technical backgrounds. I know .. or better said : I understand why you think sceptically about to invite everybody, because of much information, because of perhaps angry users who ask huge things in here and so on and so .... but the other side is - in this example I just write my personal oppinion :
users (me) are sitting there and have to realize, that things on Diaspora change. Some things are good and others are not so good - and the first thing in my head is : What a kind of community is it in fact, if so many users write posts about their dislikes and almost nobody sees it ? You know what I mean ? It feels strange and somehow it hurts if not everybody is asked for oppinion about changes and existing features. Again : I just can speak for myself, but I would like to part of it

G

goob Tue 8 Jul 2014 5:57PM

Hi, @rebekacatalina.

There were very different oppinions in here about who should be allowed to be here (feels very strange).

What makes you say this? Every vote in the proposal to open up membership of Loomio has been for that motion. The only reason membership has not been completely open up to this point is because that was not possible in the Loomio platform, not because of a decision by Diaspora project members.

You're very welcome (as is every Diaspora community member) to take part in discussions in Loomio. Please note, however, that Loomio is for forward planning decisions about the direction of the project and the development of the software; it is not for user feedback. Have a look at our guide to using Loomio for more information.

We're trying at the moment to improve communication with the wider community through the diaspora* HQ account and the project blog, and do try to respond to user feedback given in comments on posts by the diaspora* HQ account.

R

rebeka_catalina Tue 8 Jul 2014 8:51PM

Ok, thank you very much - sorry then I've missunderstood things a bit :-) Sorry for that :-) You know - I just today heard about this place and I though : why the hell is this place so hidden and not mentioned publicly ?! :D But ok, understand ;)
So yeah I'll just be in the background for the next time. Reading and so on - I'm interested in helping as well for sure, but I'm not so sure, that I really can help - currently I'm learning in several directions and my interests are currently gettin' more deep into linux systems and several stuff with encryptions and so on. Some years ago I started to learn webdevelopment as well - but ... so I stopped it because of some private reasons, but I remember a post on Diaspora by Fla, that there are possibilities to help with already quite simple things - and yes.. it's been a quite long time sinced I coded web stuff but perhaps I also could do something ? I would need some time to get back into web-codes and I'd have to begin slowly, but I would like to give it a try somewhen as well :) I not sure that my programming knowledge is enough, but perhaps we can talk about it and give it try somewhen :)

G

goob Tue 8 Jul 2014 10:38PM

Loomio definitely isn't kept secret - see posts in Diaspora such as this one and blog posts such as this one, and this wiki page.

It would be great if you want to contribute. If you want to try contributing code, have a look at our guide to getting started and then check out the issues marked as suitable for newcomers. There are also lots of other ways to contribute. Whatever you feel you can do, your contribution will be welcome!