Tue 4 Jun 2019 10:10PM

Basement Space Usage

D David Public Seen by 10

Qinza has raised concerns and prompted a discussion about the use of space in the basement and what expectations are for new members. What are thoughts and desires for this?

Will be updated to reflect Qinza's comments at the member meeting.


michelle jackson Wed 5 Jun 2019 2:56PM

The basement feels like a good space for event supplies unless there is a space on the first floor. Would love clarity around what can be stored in the basement and where.


Marcos Salazar Wed 5 Jun 2019 7:27PM

+1 for this and would agree with Michelle. I'd love to have a dedicated space for all Prime Produce event equipment that will keep the event space clutter free but also organized so that everything is easy to find. A set of shelves for event equipment (mics, stands, etc), section to have chairs, percolators, and any other equipment that we have (and purchase) that support client events.


Marcos Salazar Wed 5 Jun 2019 7:30PM

And one other note is that that really is no place to keep event supplies on the first floor since it is such an open space (which is great). The areas where there are curtains has been a temp band-aid to hide many things but it would be amazing to have everything that is behind the curtains stored in the basement that is out of sight and also organized. This would open up the space so much and really help support the promotion of the space when showing clients.


michelle jackson Mon 10 Jun 2019 8:50PM

I’m back at PP space today. Basement has been shaping up and cafe is clearing out. In terms of event equipment, PP supplies and H+ equipment, the same spaces are still available. Putting more event supplies downstairs is a challenge. I feel like that may need to be a longer term goal or alternatively storage needs to be worked on the first floor. Something that is more permanent then the curtains we are currently using. Maybe a fake wall that can also be used for art work.


Qinza Wed 12 Jun 2019 3:36AM

Thank you for this Michelle I appreciate it. I strongly plus 1 and also propose more storage as a more permanent solution on the first floor for the fake wall.....


Rosalind Zavras Thu 13 Jun 2019 6:57PM

I haven't really been a part of the conversation, but I do want to say that I think if the basement is a studio, it should only be used to store things for the studio. Yeah I would say that I agree that we need to find a way to keep event supplies on the first floor. The basement is full for art and I hate the idea of someone going downstairs to grab chairs and then causing damage to anything that is in progress. Although I understand the temptation to use the basement for storage, our basement is a studio and I think the fewer people down there, the better.


Qinza Thu 13 Jun 2019 10:40PM

I second what Roz said and I already shared my very views about that during our last members meeting and I will post it on Loomio as well..... thank you both


Chris Sat 15 Jun 2019 12:33AM

Qinza and Saks, with the help of Patrick, have put together a proposal to seek agreement (and disagreement) to give clarity on where all members stand and the consensus building to be done. Please vote, and take the opportunity to call out points of agreement, and disagreement. Happy Friday from CA, Chris


Poll Created Sat 15 Jun 2019 12:38AM

Proposal from Qinza and Saks Closed Mon 24 Jun 2019 7:02PM

1. Saks and I originally joined PPAC with an agreement that the basement would be used by the two of us as an art studio. Future use of the space by other members of PPAC would be by our invitation, to ensure the space continued to serve its function as an art studio that was conducive to our respective art practices. In short, we were charged to be the stewards of the basement art studio.

  1. The needs of PPAC and its members have changed. Saks and I are willing to compromise in an effort to accommodate various members' and PPAC's needs for basement space.

  2. Care for the basement space reflects a care for those who use this space to support their livelihoods and artistic practices.

Proposal Points

  1. I have proposed a certain allotment of space for me and Saks. That space is less than the amount originally allotted, and it has been marked with a red line for clear demarcation. A portion of the remaining basement space has been allotted to Jerone and Amelia, and another portion has been allotted to David. Space that has been allotted to me or Saks that is not currently in use/is empty is not available for use by any other member/resident for any projects or storage, nor can be used, even temporarily, by a member with an existing allotment in the basement.

  2. If these allotments, and the conditions shared above are acceptable, they will not to be changed without a future Loomio proposal.

  3. The "dungeon," as it is affectionately called, has been allotted for use by David and PPAC for first-floor supplies and equipment. Additionally, there are 3 shelves in the basement where supplies are allotted for PPAC. There are also cleaning supplies for PPAC on the landing. Those areas -- the dungeon, the 3 shelves, and the landing --
    are the only places where PPAC materials/equipment/supplies may be kept in the basement.

  4. Other than the Dungeon, where David has use of the space, these spaces are not to be used as storage for individual members' or residents' possessions. Nor should members or residents ask Jerone, Amelia, David, Saks or Qinza to use their space to store materials, supplies, or equipment in the basement, as the additional clutter is not conducive to our art practice.

  5. New members/residents may not take up space in the basement without a Loomio proposal, since having additional people in the space can alter the allotment of space and the environment that is necessary for our art practice.


Results Option % of points Voters
Agree 54.5% 6 C AG DH Q SA PPG
Abstain 0.0% 0  
Disagree 18.2% 2 MJ A
Block 27.3% 3 J RZ MS
Undecided 0% 2 D D

11 of 13 people have voted (84%)


Dr Home
Sat 15 Jun 2019 1:14AM

Sometimes it is important to respect the redline on the ground. It is is a sign that someone is reaching their personal limit and boundary, and setting a firm boundary. In prpr, out of our desire for collaborative and being open minded, I see this is a strong request to honor the need to have their work space respected in a particular way.


michelle jackson
Sat 15 Jun 2019 2:53PM

There is a three shelf storage solution for PPAC.(do you mean three storage racks?) I need more clarity around this. It’s written in a way that doesn’t address BSC, H+, and S2S, so it effectively kicks us out of the space without any storage options discussed. Not sure if that is the intention. Please clarify. In order
for me to agree, I would need clarifying language added to the proposal.

Also curious, if J, A and D have any proposal language concerns.


Anurag Gupta
Sun 16 Jun 2019 3:06PM

This could be a good pilot for some boundaries. I would move this forward and in the future, another proposal can be made when needed. To Michelle's point, my understanding is that beyond the allotments listed above, if more storage space is needed, it would need to be outside the basement.


Patrick Paul Garlinger
Sun 16 Jun 2019 4:37PM

I believe this honors the original agreement made with Saks and Qinza (which has been given short shrift), balances various artists' needs, and leaves open the possibility of future proposals. It will force us to use existing storage more efficiently (the unused bathroom next to the kitchen), be creative in finding additional storage solutions, and evaluate what's really necessary and remove items that aren't actually needed yet taking up space. Additional thoughts in discussion thread.


Rosalind Zavras
Sun 16 Jun 2019 5:35PM

See my comments in the thread. There are concerns that I think need to be addressed.


Sun 16 Jun 2019 7:15PM

I disagree for the reasons myself (and Roz/Michelle) have mentioned in the discussion thread.


Marcos Salazar
Sun 16 Jun 2019 8:22PM

I'm blocking for reasons shared by Michelle, Roz, and Amelia. One thing I'm feeling is I'm finding it challenging to see this as a proposal because a red line was literally drawn on what space can / can't be used and now we're voting on if we agree with this action. I want us to ensure that the basement works for all who need the space to do their work (+ prevent things like what that happened to Amelia's work) and this proposal doesn't address key aspects of what's needed to come to a solution.


Sun 23 Jun 2019 6:38PM

I do not consider any omissions to be prohibitive to voting yes. Whatever has been intentionally or unintentionally left out can be put into a future proposal to amend this one.


Mon 24 Jun 2019 5:22PM

Hi prime mates, I really appreciate this conversation and the clarity of the request. Because this proposal is missing some important context about our values and the history of these conversations to an extent that i feel it accidentally misrepresents the situation, I am blocking this proposal with the intention to actively help build the next iteration of it.

Also, updating to let everyone know that the next version of this proposal is already in the works!


michelle jackson Sat 15 Jun 2019 12:23PM

Thanks for putting this together. I am unable to vote on this proposal for a few reasons:

1) There is nothing in this proposal that addresses the fact that BSC, H+, PPAC & S2S are storing things on the opposite side of the red line. From the wording as is, it sounds like all of us have to vacate the basement. I’d like clarity around that and would hope that there would be direct communication with the organizations.

2) Additionally, i’m waiting for any comments from Amelia, Jerone and David. I’m hoping that this proposal was discussed with the three of them before posting to the broader group as it directly impacts their practices.


Chris Sat 15 Jun 2019 2:34PM

Please vote against the proposal, Michelle, or to block it, so that you're current state of agreement or disagreement with what is on the proposal is recorded in your vote.


Chris Sat 15 Jun 2019 2:36PM

The written proposal was not discussed with Jerone, David, or Amelia. If this is a precondition for your agreement to any proposal, please vote against this proposal or vote to block it. The proposal is part of the discussion. The vote is part of the discussion. It's not a convo ender, it's a convo enricher.


Qinza Sat 15 Jun 2019 1:35PM

Michelle, the allotment of the space and the issue of the basement has been discussed with Amelia, Jerone and David. Saks and I was asked to add our proposal on loomio which is what we did with the help of Patrick and Chris. The three racks that has been allotted does have the storage for BSC, H+, PPAC and S2S all before the red line. Thank you for bringing that up for clarity.


michelle jackson Sat 15 Jun 2019 9:04PM

Can we add in the clarification that the 3 racks have been allotted for storage for PPAC and its members? Language that makes it clear that S2S, BSC and H+ still are able to store their items. S2S is storing wine and beer for future event. If I need to move that out, I can.


Rosalind Zavras Sat 15 Jun 2019 2:05PM

Hey everyone, I am not in the space, so I don't know what the "red line" actually means.It'd be useful to see a diagram. I am also finding the language in the proposal to be a bit formal and strict without space for collaboration. I recognize that this has been a conversation mostly with those whose practice is in the basement, but it does feel like some amount of context is missing. Really, I am not seeing the role of the broader cooperative in this proposal.

The reason I highlight this is the following:
Is the idea here that any anyone who is invited to be a member has to go through a second layer of "approval" for the basement? I understand that was the initial idea but what happens to the person who is invited for membership and then isn't "approved" to be in the basement?

Do they then need to take their practice to another floor? As I have said before, I do think that if the basement is a studio it should be protected in someway but I am at odds with the fact that someone is a member has to go through multiple layers of approval in order to move their own practice forward. I'd love your thoughts on that.


michelle jackson Sat 15 Jun 2019 8:50PM

The red line is literally a red line painted on the floor.


Amelia Sun 16 Jun 2019 3:42PM

I second this, Roz


Rosalind Zavras Sun 16 Jun 2019 5:34PM

I disagree pretty strongly with a physical red line on the floor of the basement. That sends a pretty strong signal and I understand that there is frustration about the original agreement made but I really don't understand how this solves it in keeping with our culture. I also want to note that the original agreement also mentioned that Sak's and Qinza would lead bringing new artists into the space as members. There is no mention in this proposal about a new member or resident plan. In fact, it feels pretty strongly against the idea of welcoming new people into a shared space. I understand that might not be the intention but that is how it feels to me as it's currently written. Although I agree wholeheartedly to honor space and protect the studio, I believe the proposal should still address some of the points above before moving forward.


Amelia Sun 16 Jun 2019 7:15PM

Michelle, to answer your questions, Jerone and I have had discussions with Qinza about our space needs in the basement. But, we did not discuss this proposal.

I agree second Roz's and Michelle's points. I feel that the current way this is written, does not honor the fact that Prime Produce is cooperatively run and makes it seem as if only certain members are entitled to permanent space, with no room for future (or even current) member or residents to come in and share space (which is what are all about).

I do wish to protect the space as a studio/maker-space and I think it is amazing that we have this here. I do think it is good to set boundaries; but I believe this proposal should address some of Roz's, Michelle's and my points before moving forward. To my understanding, the original intention of the basement studio space was intended for multiple artists to share and use; I would also like to see a plan in place for how we will adjust for future artists that are brought on as members &/or residents.


Patrick Paul Garlinger Sun 16 Jun 2019 8:07PM

My apologies for not adding much to this thread until now; for some reason I didn't see any of the new comments that had been added until I was alerted by email to Roz's and Amelia's most recent contributions. My understanding of the proposal is that, at the moment, the basement is "at capacity" for artists, with a total of 4 allotments (with Jerone and Amelia sharing one of them), and therefore no new artists would be brought into the space until one of the allotted spaces is vacated (or a future proposal is made). I agree that on this point the proposal should be clarified. Roz raises a good question about whether Saks and Qinza continue to have the authority to choose who gets one of the vacated allotments, and that too should be clarified. What continues to be lost in this conversation, for me, is that Saks and Qinza were allotted space at a certain point in time, and that apparently hasn't been honored. As far as I am aware, other members began to use basement space originally allotted to Saks and Qinza without any discussion, notice, request or vote. I'm not sure how that was in keeping with PP culture, and if my understanding of the history here is inaccurate or missing key pieces, I would love to have it corrected, amplified, modified, etc., because it's a big part of how I am looking at this proposal. So while I can understand and appreciate the concern that the cooperative spirit isn't being honored with the boundaries being proposed here, I don't see how that cooperative spirit was in action when additional people moved into the basement. Part of our cooperative spirit has to include the process by which we go about honoring and modifying the agreements we've made with people to share space. And if part of the issue is that people think the original arrangement itself was not in keeping with PP's culture, then we should discuss that too.


Rosalind Zavras Sun 16 Jun 2019 10:02PM

Patrick - thank you for the statement but I believe (and you acknowledge) that there are multiple sides to the story and the history of this entire thing. I hope we can get to a point where are not rehashing all of this, but here is some context from my perspective. There was a long period of time when the entire second floor was almost unusable due to the fact that there was art and supplies everywhere. This was due to the fact that repairs had to happen in the basement, but after they were done it took a long time to move everything back down and make the second floor usable again. At that time, we didn't put lines on the floor to say this should be an office space and nothing else. We understood and worked with the people that we had and knew that we needed to be flexible. Once the basement was fixed and we finally coordinated everything moving down, for a very long time, the basement was left untouched for anyone except for Saks and Qinza to use. That might have been at a time when they weren't around or were otherwise occupied because it felt as if it was empty. Maybe it was because there was a fear of mold. We had paid for a full scale atmosphere test to confirm that the there were no allergens. Regardless, it seemed to become a storage space. It became difficult to haul everything up to third floor for storage. So yes, we moved items into the basement. Yes, we started to creep into that space which was unused for a long period of time. It is not as cut and dry as you're making it sound, and I think that discussing the past as the only reason to decide the future doesn't honor those that are in the conversation now nor the nuance of the situation before.


Patrick Paul Garlinger Sun 16 Jun 2019 11:07PM

Thanks very much, Roz, for that feedback. It's helpful to have the background. I also agree that we need not be controlled by the past in reaching a new arrangement. It's especially helpful to know that there's a great deal of nuance and additional perspectives about how the basement was intended to be used and came to be used. In any event, since the proposal has been blocked, it now falls back to the proposers to modify and resubmit to the cooperative. That's our process, and I think this is a good example of how the new "voting as conversation/discussion" advanced by Chris is meant to work.


Amelia Fri 5 Jul 2019 5:36PM

My response to Qinza's email, which gives her story for why she wrote the proposal:


Thanks for sharing this!! I really appreciate how brave and vulnerable you are.

Just so you all know:

  1. Qinza and I are currently working on a document on how to take care of art if it absolutely needs to be moved in the basement and norms so we don't damage people's items on accident.

  2. As a collective we need to have a greater conversation on how we take up space without leaving space for others as a norm. Maybe we could do this next week or at the July 26th dinner.

  3. I was talking to Alex the other day and we were talking about creating a training / onboarding on chores + how to care for the space both for new members and residents as well as old members and residents. If anyone else would like to talk chime in on this and add suggestions, please let me know. But, I think this could help for a collective change in culture on how we take care of the space, clean up and make a nice space for others to enter.

  4. Regarding understanding for the artists creative process, Qinza, let's chat about what this means for the artists in the current space so we can create a little blurb for everyone in the basement along with the write up for how to care for art.

Sorry it took me so long to respond! I will also post this in Loomio.