Fri 30 Mar 2018 9:48PM

Milestone payout insurance - further discussion before next gov meeting

KI Kris is Public Seen by 322

During the governance meeting we discussed a 'merge' of two related proposals on paying out people in time.
A decision was tabled as we need more input. Below you can find the 2 proposals (plz also review comments) plus the notes from our governance meeting. Please take the time to read this through and feel free to comment below, so we can come to a decision during next week's meeting.

RJ - Likes Satya’s proposal but this isn’t a quick answer. For the time being we need to just do payouts on time. This should extend to everything with a Fiat budget. MultiSends are a lot of work, monthly makes sense. Having an incentive layer will ease this tension. Use a stable coin.

Edu - No reaction; is distracted

Yalor - I like the idea of the payouts being closer AFAIK. Agrees the insurance policy will take longer.

Emex - Likes vojtechs because it’s easier to implement. Might have to abandon the MultiSend unless we can fix it.

Q: Use a stable coin, multisend with monthly payouts sounds good. Smart contract insurence is novel but likely too technical.

Kris - Bi-weekly or monthly would be great. We should hire somebody just for finance or budgeting. Not okay with using a stable coin. Would prefer to get paid in Ether. Doesn’t like the monthly rate, having the rate at the moment the milestone goes out protects people from volatility. Would prefer not to change the DApp. Agree with the idea of making an additional bonus milestone if we’re not getting paid in time.

Kay - Good feedback so far. The most imporant thing is to get payouts out quickly. Make a milestone, get paid out quickly. As long as we have this manual process it’s hard. Averaging out volatility is good for regular rewards.

Griff - Budget started on the 15th of Dec, he always offered to front any ether to anyone, this was the first proposal to fix the issue. We’ve been delayed due to feature creep since the DApp sucks and we have to deal with that. The issue is due to ether crashing and milestones not coming as fast as they need to. This wouldn’t be an issue if we didn’t move to Rinkeby. The actual price right now is cheap, I would think satya would want to make these milestones. There is a centralization issue on the multisend. Need to get more people to learn how to do the multi-send. There is a risk in V’s idea, if we have a dip on the one day we pay out, we get fucked, as Kris mentioned.

Lindsay - Handing it off

BowenSanders - Agrees with Kris and Griff

Amend and Clarify (Satya)
Most people seemed to be in favor of Vojtech’s solution. Not sure what to say. A stable coin is too ambitious(?). Let’s try to implement Vojtech’s solution as soon as possible but there may be an issue with sample size, we don’t want milestones on milestones. Let’s do another Loomio and do another discussion.


Kris is Tue 3 Apr 2018 6:43PM

(We're currently two rewardDAO's behind if I see it correctly)


Griff Green Wed 4 Apr 2018 9:04AM

I thought some of the last reward dao was paid out.


Justjen Tue 3 Apr 2018 6:46PM

Hello guys, i'm just trying to make my way true all the discussions....I think weekly payouts are fair and we should definitely (in terms of being trustable, accountable and reliable as an organization) pay our people in time...I am also a fan of keeping the Dapp as simple as possible, for us and others...If there is a dedicated person needed to do payouts or controls milestones, triple check, chasing down people etc, i am happy to do so( for a little ETH).....


Yalda Mousavinia Tue 3 Apr 2018 10:02PM

Near term solution:
1) Determine who in the org wants their regular reward paid in DAI. Maintain a spreadsheet where only regular reward folks have write access
2) Based on this, determine what the monthly DAI budget is
3) [x days] before the target payout date, use oasisdex.com to trade ETH for DAI in the amount that is needed for the DAI payouts
4) Check the spreadsheet the next cycle to see if anyone changed their DAI preferences. It’s up to the individual to update the spreadsheet if their preference changes.

With this method, monthly payouts would be easier to maintain as the DAI exchange just happens once a month. The amount of DAI per person should be the same as if the Euro salary was converted to USD.


Grace Wed 4 Apr 2018 6:14AM

It seems to me that we have forgotten who we are building this app for. It is very oriented to solve the Giveth issues without realizing if these issues are actually the same for our intended user. Payout are extremely important and so is ‘stability’. When you start looking are the options from our intended users perspective, you will start solving the problems differently.
With that said: stability is important and so is reliability of the pay outs. Frequency of the payout may not be an issue the majorly of users will encounter as they are truly milestone based. A good and efficient review system and a accurate disbursement of the funds - yes very important. Think of your small decentralized altruistic community helping veterans who suffer from ptsd...what do they need to make it work? Whatever Giveth DAC needs, is not the answer.


Griff Green Wed 4 Apr 2018 10:10AM

Yep, what we need is the multitoken functionality in the DApp for DAI and the ability to have a check on the creation of the milestones (which happens when we can donate to milestones and campaigns directly). We are mitigating the issue that we created this DApp for mainnet and then had to move it to test net...
RJ is ATTACKING a ghetto bridge solution and Adria is starting to look over the newest version of the code.

The original plan was that I front ETH to whoever needs it when they have a good milestone... I think that is still valid till we finish the real solution, and we get the payment creation centralization out of quazia's hands


RJ Wed 4 Apr 2018 3:42PM

another proposal for the current situation: https://www.loomio.org/p/9n7U41bV/payouts
comments before the gov meeting are appreciated


Griff Green Thu 5 Apr 2018 1:25PM

Our agreements have always been in ETH, I would like to see somewhere where that wasn't the case... We haven't received any DAI donations... only ETH donations. Giveth is not incorporated in some country, it lives on the Ethereum Blockchain. We have implemented fiat numbers to help hedge against volatility, but only ETH numbers have ever been guaranteed and it is up to each contributor to hedge their position, just as a foreign company working in Mexico doing long term deals has to hedge against the volatility of the Mexican Peso. This is of course more dramatic, but that is the state of our DApp.

The simple solution, which i have done with several people is similar to what Yalda suggested and what we have been doing for ever. If you don't want to speculate on ETH, you ask someone to front you the ETH for the milestone, and I am always up to do it, the only thing i ask is for the milestone to be done and to look nice.

A better solution is that we build a milestone plug in to fit your desired out come... thats the point of dogfooding. Most of the push here is coming from the DApp team. If our DApp isnt working the way you want... then make it work the way you want. Let's take this problem and be constructive with it, not destructive. In the mean time take me up on my offer to avoid having to speculate with ETH.

Constructive Solution: Make a milestone plugin that works the way we need it to work. the reviewer can set the exchange rate date with a couple of small tweeks to the code base i'm sure, then we just need the dapp to be able to be aware of which milestone plugin is being used.


Satya Thu 5 Apr 2018 1:44PM

"Our agreements have always been in ETH, I would like to see somewhere where that wasn't the case..."

Like here?

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