Loomio
Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:12PM

Ditching GAFAM

OS Oli SB Public Seen by 188

What would it take for us to get away from the 'death star platforms' of GAFAM and grow a cooperative commons infrastructure...?

OS

Poll Created Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:32PM

Which of the following reasons is most likely to convince you to move away from Gmail etc? The alternative service should: Closed Sun 4 Jul 2021 1:04PM

Results

Results Option Rank % of points Points Mean
Never sell your data to anyone else 1 10.3% 270 11.3
Be powered by open source software 2 8.5% 222 9.7
Be governed as a co-operative 3 8.1% 213 9.3
Be easy to set up on your phone and computer 4 7.2% 189 7.6
Be as, or more secure than the “free” options 5 7.1% 187 8.1
Allow you to cancel, and export your data, at any time 6 7.0% 185 7.4
Be available on all devices 7 6.7% 176 7.3
Be powered by renewable energy 8 6.6% 172 8.6
Use any profit to help grow the commons 9 5.8% 153 6.4
Never expose you to advertising 10 5.5% 145 8.5
Have great product support 11 4.6% 120 5.5
Have an uptime guarantee 12 4.6% 120 5.5
Provide Single Sign On (SSO) access to file storage and other collaborative tools 13 4.6% 120 5.7
Be expandable - so you can upgrade your storage 14 3.7% 98 4.7
Provide a suite comprising calendar plus office tools 15 3.3% 87 6.2
Provide collaborative tools such as mind-mapping, whiteboard, etc. 16 3.2% 83 5.9
Work seemlessly with Gmail etc (e.g. sending/accepting calendar invites) 17 0.9% 24 12.0
Provide a robust migration mechanism from Gmail etc 18 0.5% 14 7.0
Search Feature 19 0.5% 14 14.0
As cheap as Gmail so all can use it. 20 0.5% 13 13.0
Large scale reliable operation with own data center and Internet backbone 21 0.5% 13 13.0
Be built as Native Apps 22 0.3% 7 7.0
Utilize SOLID from Tim-Berners Lee 23 0.0% 0 0
Undecided 0% 0 0

25 of 237 people have voted (10%)

OS

Poll Created Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:46PM

If the Open service also connected to other collaborative tools, which of the following would you use? Closed Wed 30 Jun 2021 1:03PM

Results

Results Option % of points Voters
Shared docs - for collaboration on Spreadsheets and Word Processing files 12.8% 21 WO GJ G MSC SG BS VG J B AP JW D R GR D DF MW RB S CH
File storage - for docs and photos etc 12.2% 20 WO GJ G MSC SG BS VG B AP JW D R D DF MW RB S D CH JD
Audio and video calls 11.0% 18 WO G MSC SG VG J B AP JW D M R GR D DF MW S D
Collaborative tools for graphing, mind-/concept-mapping, whiteboarding, etc. 11.0% 18 WO GJ G MSC SG BS J B JW M R D DF MW RB S D CH
Meeting scheduling tools 9.1% 15 WO GJ G MSC SG BS J JW D M R DF MW S JD
Todo lists - private or shared Kanban-style task boards 8.5% 14 WO G MSC SG BS J B AP JW D R DF S D
Calendars - create and share multiple calendars 7.9% 13 WO G SG AP JW D R DF MW RB S CH JD
Text chat - in groups or one-to-one 7.9% 13 WO G SG J AP JW D M R DF MW S CH
Contacts - sync your contacts with phones and other devices 6.7% 11 WO G SG B JW D R MW S CH JD
Ad hoc polls 6.7% 11 WO G JW M R JG DF MW S D JD
Ad hoc payment/measurement/acknowledement recording framework 3.7% 6 WO G JW R MW S
Accessibility 2.4% 4 BS R MW D
Undecided 0% 213 DS EM TK AG JD DW BH DDB AD PA JN J JE JA JL R C CCC ML WH

24 of 237 people have voted (10%)

OS

Poll Created Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:51PM

How much would you be prepared to pay for 5GB of storage for emails and 10GB of storage for files? Closed Sun 4 Jul 2021 1:04PM

Results

Results Option % of points Voters
£3/month 40.0% 4 SG VG J GR
£5/month 30.0% 3 WO G BS
€1/month 20.0% 2 D M
£4/month 10.0% 1 JD
Undecided 0% 1 OS

10 of 11 people have voted (90%)

OS

Poll Created Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:53PM

How much would you be prepared to pay for 5GB of storage for emails and 20GB of storage for files? Closed Sun 4 Jul 2021 1:04PM

Results

Results Option % of points Voters
£5/month 40.0% 2 BS VG
£7/month 40.0% 2 WO JD
£6/month 20.0% 1 SG
£8/month 0.0% 0  
Undecided 0% 1 OS

5 of 6 people have voted (83%)

OS

Poll Created Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:54PM

How much would you be prepared to pay for 5GB of storage for emails and 30GB of storage for files? Closed Sun 4 Jul 2021 1:04PM

Results

Results Option % of points Voters
£10/month 100.0% 3 WO SG VG
£11/month 0.0% 0  
£12/month 0.0% 0  
£13/month 0.0% 0  
£14/month 0.0% 0  
£15/month 0.0% 0  
Undecided 0% 1 OS

3 of 4 people have voted (75%)

ML

Michael Linton Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:41PM

 
10 - Provide Single Sign On (SSO) access to file storage and other collaborative tools
 
11 - Use any profit to help grow the commons
 
12 - Be expandable - so you can upgrade your storage
 
13 - Have an uptime guarantee
 
14 - Have great product support
 
15 - Be easy to set up on your phone and computer
 
16 - Be available on all devices
 
17 - Be governed as a co-operative
 
18 - Allow you to cancel, and export your data, at any time
 
19 - Be as, or more secure than the “free” options
 
20 - Be powered by open source software
 
21 - Be powered by renewable energy
 
22 - Never expose you to advertising
 
23 - Never sell your data to anyone else

Subscription / financed by cooperative currencies? Pay it round?

OS

Poll Created Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:57PM

If you were to sign up which size of account do you think you would start at? Closed Sun 4 Jul 2021 1:04PM

Results

Results Option % of points Voters
5GM email + 10GB files storage 71.4% 5 WO BS VG J JD
5GM email + 30GB files storage 28.6% 2 SG GR
5GM email + 20GB files storage 0.0% 0  
Undecided 0% 1 OS

7 of 8 people have voted (87%)

OS

Poll Created Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:59PM

How important do you think it is for an Open email service to connect to file storage and other collaborative tools? Closed Sun 4 Jul 2021 1:04PM

Results

Results Option % of points Voters
Important 44.4% 4 WO SG VG JD
Unsure 22.2% 2 BS J
Very important - I wouldn’t sign up without those 22.2% 2 M GR
Not that important 11.1% 1 G
Not important at all - I would never use those 0.0% 0  
Undecided 0% 1 OS

9 of 10 people have voted (90%)

OS

Poll Created Sun 27 Jun 2021 2:01PM

Would you be interested in paying for an estimation of your technological carbon footprint to be offset as an additional feature? Closed Sun 4 Jul 2021 2:03PM

Results

Results Option % of points Voters
Yes 37.5% 3 G BS D
Maybe - depends on the price 37.5% 3 SG VG JD
No 25.0% 2 J M
Undecided 0% 1 OS

8 of 9 people have voted (88%)

JW

John Waters Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:41PM

 
10 - Be as, or more secure than the “free” options
 
11 - Be powered by renewable energy
 
12 - Provide Single Sign On (SSO) access to file storage and other collaborative tools
 
13 - Be powered by open source software
 
14 - Provide collaborative tools such as mind-mapping, whiteboard, etc.
 
15 - Provide a suite comprising calendar plus office tools
 
16 - Allow you to cancel, and export your data, at any time
 
17 - Never sell your data to anyone else
 
18 - Use any profit to help grow the commons
 
19 - Be expandable - so you can upgrade your storage
 
20 - Have an uptime guarantee
 
21 - Have great product support
 
22 - Be easy to set up on your phone and computer
 
23 - Be available on all devices

"Never sell your data to anyone else" is ambiguous. Anonymized aggregated data may, if used appropriately, help in the effective design of policy, whereas identifying data enables the targetting of advertising (and worse) turning the user into the product.

What does "Gmail etc" actually mean?

The meaning of "available on all devices" is unclear. A Web service will be available on any device with a browser.

JW

John Waters Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:46PM

Collaborative tools for graphing, mind-/concept-mapping, whiteboarding, etc.
Ad hoc payment/measurement/acknowledement recording framework
Ad hoc polls
Meeting scheduling tools
Audio and video calls
Text chat - in groups or one-to-one
Todo lists - private or shared Kanban-style task boards
Contacts - sync your contacts with phones and other devices
Calendars - create and share multiple calendars
File storage - for docs and photos etc
Shared docs - for collaboration on Spreadsheets and Word Processing files

I hate being forced to use Google tools.

DG

David Gómez @Dvdgmz Sun 27 Jun 2021 4:17PM

We have already done that.

See CommonsCloud.coop

Office, Mail, Forms, Forums, ERP, and Meet.coop for Video Conferencing with one single LDAP account.

With free software and based on a users + workers cooperative.

There are other cooperatives doing the same: WebArchitects, Collective Tools ...

Perhaps what we should do is coordinate, and perhaps federate, these initiatives.

GJ

Guy James Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:46PM

Collaborative tools for graphing, mind-/concept-mapping, whiteboarding, etc.
Meeting scheduling tools
File storage - for docs and photos etc
Shared docs - for collaboration on Spreadsheets and Word Processing files

I already use the NextCloud instance at disroot.org and have my own self-hosted instance as well

SG

Simon Grant Sun 27 Jun 2021 5:52PM

£6/month

Just being consisten

SG

Simon Grant Sun 27 Jun 2021 5:53PM

£10/month

not sure this makes a lot of sense to me to ask it this way

SG

Simon Grant Sun 27 Jun 2021 6:01PM

Hi Oli

What strikes me here is that the different options are different in kind.

Maybe you could recast the question as a multiple choice on each option

  • Essential: would not consider if this wasn't there
  • Highly desirable – might not sign up if not there
  • preferable – would help persuade me
  • less important – happy to work around that not being provided
  • don't care

Cheers

Simon

B

Bronwen Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:41PM

 
10 - Allow you to cancel, and export your data, at any time
 
11 - Be governed as a co-operative
 
12 - Be easy to set up on your phone and computer
 
13 - Never sell your data to anyone else
 
14 - Use any profit to help grow the commons
 
15 - Be powered by renewable energy
 
16 - Never expose you to advertising
 
17 - Be powered by open source software
 
18 - Be as, or more secure than the “free” options
 
19 - Be available on all devices
 
20 - Have great product support
 
21 - Be expandable - so you can upgrade your storage
 
22 - Provide a suite comprising calendar plus office tools
 
23 - Provide Single Sign On (SSO) access to file storage and other collaborative tools

Apart from ease of use, many of my current concerns about privacy and commodification and resource would I believe be much better served than current options offer, via a collective commitment to cooperative governance where profit sharing supports the commons - thus those criteria stand higher even though I strongly care about not selling data or advertising or using renewable energy or open-source etc.

G

Graham Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:46PM

Collaborative tools for graphing, mind-/concept-mapping, whiteboarding, etc.
Ad hoc payment/measurement/acknowledement recording framework
Ad hoc polls
Meeting scheduling tools
Audio and video calls
Text chat - in groups or one-to-one
Todo lists - private or shared Kanban-style task boards
Contacts - sync your contacts with phones and other devices
Calendars - create and share multiple calendars
File storage - for docs and photos etc
Shared docs - for collaboration on Spreadsheets and Word Processing files

Critical that development does not create yet another island of collaboration. Multiple similar initiatives exist - the real job is to build the mesh that brings them together.

JG

John Grant Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:46PM

Ad hoc polls

Next gen platforms and services need to be hackable. Hackable not in the sense of being insecure and vulnerable to cybercrime, but instead lend themselves to tinkering, creative problem solving, modification and adaptation. Many of the tools listed above are available as commodity services in some form or another. Flexible protocols that enable the emergence of new forms of distributed governance and asynchronous 'topic hacking' are the missing parts needed most right now imho

BH

Bob Haugen Mon 28 Jun 2021 11:03AM

I'm following this very interesting conversation but am not interested in a new email account as of now. We just set up our own email server at a friendly local hosting company and are transitioning into it. (Takes time, lots of connections, kids, other relatives, etc., so don't want to do it again soon...)

BS

Billy Smith Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:46PM

Accessibility
Collaborative tools for graphing, mind-/concept-mapping, whiteboarding, etc.
Meeting scheduling tools
File storage - for docs and photos etc
Todo lists - private or shared Kanban-style task boards
Shared docs - for collaboration on Spreadsheets and Word Processing files

These are the basic tools that i use when collaborating with other people in an online environment. FOr a new system to be viable, it needs to, at least, match the features that are currently available. :D

WO

wouter@freeknowledge.eu Mon 28 Jun 2021 12:20PM

5GM email + 10GB files storage

I already have cooperative cloud accounts at CommonsCloud.coop, and with my FairPhone3+ from e.foundation I got an email + NextCloud service included that covers most of the above. But I do think there's much space to market these services under cooperative-commons governance models :-)

DF

Diana Finch Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:46PM

Collaborative tools for graphing, mind-/concept-mapping, whiteboarding, etc.
Ad hoc polls
Todo lists - private or shared Kanban-style task boards
Meeting scheduling tools
Audio and video calls
Text chat - in groups or one-to-one
Calendars - create and share multiple calendars
File storage - for docs and photos etc
Shared docs - for collaboration on Spreadsheets and Word Processing files

These are all the functionalities I currently rely on.

BS

Billy Smith Mon 28 Jun 2021 12:55PM

£5/month

This is what i currently pay for my current services.

OS

Oli SB Mon 28 Jun 2021 3:54PM

Thanks Bob - that's the whole point of this new service. Not everyone knows how or has the time to set up their own email, cloud storage and collaborative tools. This services aims to take all the hassle away :)

OS

Oli SB Mon 28 Jun 2021 4:00PM

which options do u mean? Not sure it's easy / possible to recast Qs after the voting has begun... but if u mean the 14 in the first Q (Which of the following reasons is most likely to convince you to move away from Gmail etc? The alternative service should:) the idea is simply to rank these, so we can determine which are the key aspects of the proposition to raise up in our marketing ;)

S

spirit Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:46PM

Collaborative tools for graphing, mind-/concept-mapping, whiteboarding, etc.
Ad hoc payment/measurement/acknowledement recording framework
Ad hoc polls
Meeting scheduling tools
Audio and video calls
Text chat - in groups or one-to-one
Todo lists - private or shared Kanban-style task boards
Contacts - sync your contacts with phones and other devices
Calendars - create and share multiple calendars
File storage - for docs and photos etc
Shared docs - for collaboration on Spreadsheets and Word Processing files

Clearly, if the tools created are better than the tools I currently use, I would use any and all of them. But if they are not, I most likely will not adopt until they are, perhaps giving willing to give slightly more sway to open source tools even if the functionality isn't quite as good.

S

spirit Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:41PM

 
10 - Never sell your data to anyone else
 
11 - Be powered by open source software
 
12 - Never expose you to advertising
 
13 - Use any profit to help grow the commons
 
14 - Be available on all devices
 
15 - Be governed as a co-operative
 
16 - Be powered by renewable energy
 
17 - Provide a suite comprising calendar plus office tools
 
18 - Provide collaborative tools such as mind-mapping, whiteboard, etc.
 
19 - Be expandable - so you can upgrade your storage
 
20 - Be easy to set up on your phone and computer
 
21 - Allow you to cancel, and export your data, at any time
 
22 - Have great product support
 
23 - Have an uptime guarantee

Loomio is somewhat flawed in that they force you to rank certain items over others even if you feel they are similarly weighted. Nevertheless, I tried my best to workaround this flaw.

GR

Grace (Rebecca Rachmany) Tue 29 Jun 2021 5:19AM

5GM email + 30GB files storage

I use more than that now.

GR

Grace (Rebecca Rachmany) Tue 29 Jun 2021 5:20AM

£3/month

not enough storage.

G

Graham Tue 29 Jun 2021 8:33AM

£5/month

These numbers are way too low for me. Email storage - 10GB min, and file storage at 100GB min, is worth paying for.

G

Graham Tue 29 Jun 2021 8:36AM

Not that important

I don't even know what you mean when you talk about email "connecting" to other tools/services. I use a wide range of services but I don't think any of them are "connected" to email.

G

Graham Tue 29 Jun 2021 8:37AM

Yes

I'm doing some work on net zero at present. The opportunity to do interesting things with voluntary carbon tax is exciting.

G

Graham Tue 29 Jun 2021 8:39AM

Exactly. The point here surely is not to replicate service offerings that other commons/cooperative projects are already delivering, but to mesh them together to create a more resilient and better connected service offering under a common social brand, all built on cooperatively owned hardware sitting in cooperatively owned rackspace connected via cooperatively owned fibre.

D

dilgreen Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:46PM

Meeting scheduling tools
Audio and video calls
Text chat - in groups or one-to-one
Todo lists - private or shared Kanban-style task boards
Contacts - sync your contacts with phones and other devices
Calendars - create and share multiple calendars
File storage - for docs and photos etc
Shared docs - for collaboration on Spreadsheets and Word Processing files

If possible, you would want all these to work together

D

dilgreen Tue 29 Jun 2021 12:26PM

Nextcloud do much of this, and have been building the ecosystem for years - would you be building onto that?

It isn't terribly good, though - (libre-office is painful after gdocs, calendar sync has a bad rep etc) - how would this be addressed? Basically, OSS seems good at infrastructure, and bad at anything that needs excellent UI.

All this stuff needs good UI.

So I'm dubious. Each tool is hard. Getting them to knit is harder, good UI is hard, good UX is harder. All this costs lots of time(=money), gafam works by giving away freemium, so hard to gain traction.

Also, has low systemic impact afaics.

So I'm not currently convinced. Lowimpact is considering trying a transition into Nextcloud, which is a start. A co-op that aims to be better than http://thegood.cloud would be interesting - but tough to achieve, since they are excellent.

G

Graham Tue 29 Jun 2021 1:31PM

Just a couple of points in response: yes Nextcloud is a great platform with lots of good features. You don't need to use Libreoffice with it. If you want to edit docs in the browser it also works with Onlyoffice, which is perhaps a more MS office oriented interface. Or of course if you don't want or need live synchronous collaborative editing you can simply use the Nextcloud client applications to sync the data to your preferred device and use whatever editor you like.

Increasingly people are becoming aware that GAFAM does not always/often/ever have their best interests at heart and are looking for more privacy oriented options. So while you'll likely never become dominant, it is possible to build sustainable market share and be a viable, sustainable alternative.

In terms of systemic impact it may not be hugely disruptive, but it does move people into different spaces that might make them more conducive to other alternative options.

For me the win here is more about meshing together the multiple similar co-op/commons projects already working gin this pace to synergise.

SG

Simon Grant Tue 29 Jun 2021 1:37PM

I tend to agree with Graham here. Nextcloud is clearly promising; can we as co-ops etc join and coordinate our efforts to make it better; to improve the UI/UX; to ensure that everyone has access to co-op owned easy to use service that provides nextcloud and more as desired?

CH

Carmen Ho Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:46PM

Text chat - in groups or one-to-one
Collaborative tools for graphing, mind-/concept-mapping, whiteboarding, etc.
Contacts - sync your contacts with phones and other devices
Calendars - create and share multiple calendars
File storage - for docs and photos etc
Shared docs - for collaboration on Spreadsheets and Word Processing files

the tools I use regularly

J

JDN Tue 29 Jun 2021 9:03PM

£3/month

Would be prepared to pay more with Reciprocity Loop enabled.

J

JDN Tue 29 Jun 2021 9:04PM

5GM email + 10GB files storage

Do not need more currently...

J

JDN Tue 29 Jun 2021 9:06PM

Unsure

Do not know what exactly do you mean by open email service.

J

JDN Tue 29 Jun 2021 9:08PM

No

Paying for carbon footprint to be offset (how?) is not a solution.

M

mike_hales Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:46PM

Collaborative tools for graphing, mind-/concept-mapping, whiteboarding, etc.
Ad hoc polls
Meeting scheduling tools
Audio and video calls
Text chat - in groups or one-to-one

I’ve voted only for some of these bcos I already have others as a member of MayFirst, which provides a NextCloud instance as part of membership. Membership is astonishingly cheap, they probably should raise the fees. I didn’t vote for ‘kanban’ bcos I feel it’s an awfully klunky medium, specifically in its NextCloud implementation, and prefer a todo tool like Things on MacOS, which comes very easily to hand thro keyboard shortcuts. All in all I’m unexcited by the NextCloud web interface.

M

mike_hales Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:41PM

 
10 - Be governed as a co-operative
 
11 - Use any profit to help grow the commons
 
12 - Provide Single Sign On (SSO) access to file storage and other collaborative tools
 
13 - Never expose you to advertising
 
14 - Never sell your data to anyone else
 
15 - Have an uptime guarantee
 
16 - Allow you to cancel, and export your data, at any time
 
17 - Be powered by renewable energy
 
18 - Be powered by open source software
 
19 - Be available on all devices
 
20 - Be as, or more secure than the “free” options
 
21 - Be easy to set up on your phone and computer
 
22 - Provide collaborative tools such as mind-mapping, whiteboard, etc.
 
23 - Have great product support

It seems my leading choices are related to political economy, and the second group of choices are platform characteristics. Product support is important but somehow seems to come low down compared with other options here - an artefact of this flat-list approach to valuation? Availability on all devices, security etc are things to take for granted, ‘basic qualifiers’ - I wouldn’t subscribe at all to a service that didn’t take care of these.

M

mike_hales Wed 30 Jun 2021 8:43AM

€1/month

I currently subscribe to 100GB of NextCloud storage from a German source (not a coop), for €2/ month. So the offered rates don’t seem attractive.

M

mike_hales Wed 30 Jun 2021 8:45AM

Very important - I wouldn’t sign up without those

Email is SOOO last century.

M

mike_hales Wed 30 Jun 2021 9:06AM

I agree with Dil that the web interface of NextCloud leaves a lot to be desired. Navigation is klunky, after the kind of navigation and drag&drop ease that we take for granted in a desktop/laptop operating system. NextCloud only really works well when its files can be handled from the desktop - which basically is limited to Markdown editing (which is fine, no need for a word processor, most of the time) and file/folder management. But that calls for confidence and skill on the desktop, and in configuring of DAV connections, that is just not available to most folks. OnlyOffice is a pain in the browser or on the desktop. All spreadsheets in the cloud via a web browser are a pain in the butt - unless, maybe, you have a 24” screen, but that’s pure luxury.

And what about the majority of the world - global-South or poor-North - that uses phones rather than laptop/desktops now? That’s a whole different UX ballgame. Not to mention the resource demand made on a phone by a high-featured web browser compared with a narrowly focused app. Design justice!

I’m with @Graham and @David Gómez Dvdgmz who commented elsewhere ( @dilgreen too?) that creating another island of correctness is not helpful. Facilities of the proposed kind are already available on other coop platforms (and already don’t offer nearly enough quality in the UI/UX). Some new approach to federation is called for, and to funding of tool UX development (aka livelihood of developers) on open-source platforms. The interfaces to existing well intentioned ‘dumps’ or ‘foodbanks’ or open-access repos of open source tools are without exception poor. I include Diglife, MayFirst, Framasoft and Disroot.

M

mike_hales Wed 30 Jun 2021 9:16AM

Taking the hassle away is an important aspiration. ‘Hassle free’ is a plank in the platform of GAFAM. But see my comment on federation. One more island of correctness is not helpful. MayFirst, Diglife, meet.coop, collective.tools, Framasoft - at least these orgs need to be working out how to federate their provision of open source tools, and how to vastly improve UX of cloud services, thro apps on devices, as well as web interfaces. Single sign-on is a basic UX requirement too, but not the basic issue.

R

RobertD Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:46PM

Accessibility
Collaborative tools for graphing, mind-/concept-mapping, whiteboarding, etc.
Meeting scheduling tools
Ad hoc payment/measurement/acknowledement recording framework
Ad hoc polls
Audio and video calls
Text chat - in groups or one-to-one
Todo lists - private or shared Kanban-style task boards
Contacts - sync your contacts with phones and other devices
Calendars - create and share multiple calendars
File storage - for docs and photos etc
Shared docs - for collaboration on Spreadsheets and Word Processing files

All of this collaborative knowledge sharing technology is foundational and should be open source to increase integrated, intelligent applications for communities

D

dilgreen Wed 30 Jun 2021 1:00PM

€1/month

I already happily pay thegood.cloud €8/month for 100g, so i voted pro-rata. I won't move email away from protonmail unless you have equally good encryption, which seems unlikely.

D

dilgreen Wed 30 Jun 2021 1:02PM

Yes

this would be an excellent commitment to make. just swayed to host a site at uberspace.de on the basis of an overt commitment to renewable electricity.

Item removed

D

dilgreen Wed 30 Jun 2021 1:24PM

I have the feeling that this whole proposition is what I have come to describe as an 'in-band' reaction. By this I mean that it does not step outside the system it seeks to challenge, and thus does not really understand why the system is the way it is.
It only knows it doesn't like the system the way it is, and can draw a picture of what a better system looks like.
However, that picture is framed in exactly the same terms as the system being critiqued.
The problem here is that any complex adaptive system (which the world of collaborative digital work certainly is), whether you like it or not, is an approximately adequate resolution of all the forces at work.
Any proposition for change that does not step 'outside' in order to be able to see how those forces come into being, will be experienced within the system as a less adequate resolution of the forces at work.
The hope for such approaches is that enough system participants will be prepared to put up with reduced adequacy on the basis of 'shoulds' and 'oughts' - moral choices, rather than practical ones.
This can work, of course - when the moral wrong of acceptance is egregious, in particular.
But in the 'system in focus' here - collaborative digital working - the moral wrong is tenuous, albeit we here share a feeling that it is real - while the combined cost of change and loss in effectiveness is large ( @Oli SB I remember you arguing this yourself quite strongly a couple of years ago), so that the chances at sufficient 'buy-in' to make the investment needed viable seems low.
Further, communities motivated in their choice of tech by moral precepts, rather than effective UI, get what they deserve - sub-standard UI and a comfortable feeling of sticking to their ethics, while being stuck in a small corner of the forest that has no impact on what actually happens.
This seems sad.
Effective systems change work depends upon the willingness to step outside the system, and take an objective look at the origin of the forces at work for which the system is the currently most adequate resolution.
Read this (free, short, excellent, not written by me!) book for some very powerful real-world examples as to how even systems with appalling outcomes that all stakeholders in the system agree are appalling, that have nevertheless arrived at some equilibrium, can be extraordinarily hard to change.

Once having stepped outside the system, one can look at the systems of wider scope within which it is active, and see what changes might be made there - these are typically 'policy' changes - analogous to changes in the weather, in another framing. Some systems are best changed this way - by the mandated decision of a government or collective, perhaps.
Others, and particularly those which are both 'permissionless' and 'pervasive' tend to have a majority of the impinging forces coming from directions which are uninterested in policy. Policy changes in these contexts tend to produce workarounds that allow the system to persist in spite of the desired change direction (remember departments in forms hiding desktop PC purchases in stationery budgets in defiance of corporate policy to do all computing on the mainframe?).

Looking in the other direction, on can step 'down' in the systems stack, to those smaller scope but more numerous systems which animate the system you wish to change. Change in these small-scope systems is both 'invisible' to and 'irresistible' by the system, but is harder to achieve - as it needs to occur in many systems at roughly the same time.

D

dilgreen Wed 30 Jun 2021 1:28PM


In the collaborative digital work system - we are those smaller-scope systems - billions of us, making choices every day, twenty times a day.

In pursuing the change this proposal declares - challenging the GAFAM hegemony - I think that we need to look at this lower level. And at this level, moral choices over which text editor to use are clearly not the generators of the forces at work when we make those choices.

R

RobertD Wed 30 Jun 2021 1:48PM

@dilgreen I think Dil’s comments are well thought out and that this may require similar depth of discussion. For example, what outcomes are we really trying to achieve by investing our precious time and energy? Is it only tools or perhaps a much greater level of equity, openness, and deeper and more rapid reuse of the community’s shared knowledge, insights and heart wisdom. Would there be interest in building a platform cooperative to do develop this platform for our own use, particularly if we know we would be building something extremely useful and valuable for a lot of other communities and organizations, that could be repurposed and thus offset the development costs and cut the development/integration time? Just a couple of thoughts but I think it may well be worth exploring in more depth to better crystallize our shared vision. I know it can be so much more than better tools.

J

JDN Thu 1 Jul 2021 6:41PM

It is amazing to me how easy it is for many of us to simply misunderstand that in this crazy, mad competitive world we were born into (and hence we take many of its idiotic foundations as something simply given and we do not consider them at all) the biggest competitive advantage we commoners have is - cooperation?

I can prove to you something very strange. You have probably heard of the holly grail of mainstream economics - the so called perfectly competitive markets” the ideal where perfect competition exists and that can not be achieved in real world markets but the effectiveness and efficiency of real-world markets can be measured by this “standard” or ideal. You know the markets where “resources are allocated to their best alternative use and hence they provide the maximum satisfaction attainable by society”?

I can prove to you that you can achieve that “perfectly competitive markets” and all the nice effects of it by simply - collaborating. In other words - perfect competition equals cooperation.

Instead of creating “yet another island of collaboration” let’s create another island and organise archipelago of well connected cooperating specialised islands. After all we need numbers and redundancy as well.

So instead that Diglife, MayFirst, Framasoft, Disroot and meet.coop cooperate well to compete as hell on the market - wouldn’t it be better to collaborate instead? Fuck competition. Pool all resources together and share them? Appropriately and efficiently share the users that have access to all of it? Instead that each of the lot does everything, mails, pools, video meetings… etc, etc they specialise and optimise what they know best and share and reap the benefits of specialisation? Heck, you can even have inside competition in order to streamline efficiency - like several nextcloud servers maintaining by different groups and see which one is better and then, after a while, everyone adopts the best one. Technically this is achievable. Financially as well. Organisationally? Definitely not in any classical hierarchical manner.

Naive? Only if we look from inside the box. We need to step out into a bigger one at least. We need to understand few things about humans, the way we naturally organise ourselves. We need to understand the history of complex adaptive system called civilisation and its constituent parts called cultures. CAS is extremely dependable on starting conditions, and if you do not know these conditions (history in our case) you just might miss the most important feedback loops that govern the system - that can nudge the system into proper direction. We need to know about reciprocity and fairness and how to achieve that with algorithms. Etc, etc…

Ah yes, egos of the founders might prove a bit of a problem. :)

Does this make any sense?

Huh, after I've written this I've realised that @David Gómez Dvdgmz has proposed something similar. Not in so many words though. :)

OS

Oli SB Fri 2 Jul 2021 9:39AM

Thanks for all the insight and feedback here - it's very encouraging.

Don't get me wrong - we're not looking to reinvent any wheels.

But we are looking to expand the market for Open products and services - and one way to do that is to open another 'shop window' in order to capture more 'passing trade'... if we can hone a more compelling proposition which attracts more customers and convinces them to spend their money into the commons cooperative economy, I feel it is a good thing, regardless of how well the delivery is mapped into an "archipelago" of coooperation...

The thing is: Cooperation is HARD

And as Meet.coop is proving, it's not easy to coordinate an effective cooperative which is made up of other coops. In fact, it's possibly the hardest type of Org to manage and run with anything approaching the efficiency which comes from organising in a "classical hierarchical manner". There is a reason hierarchical organizations dominate: They work. And they work well.

So, to me at least, the questions become: How can we capture the insights and lessons from classical hierarchical orgs - and apply them to cooperative Orgs - to enable cooperatives gain the required efficiencies to start competing with 'conventional' hierarchical Orgs?

In my experience this is far from easy. But it is the work which must be done.

It's all too easy to say "let's cooperate more" and "those Orgs should be cooperating more!"

But getting involved and designing the organisational structures, governance and processes which will make deeper and wider cooperation possible is much, much harder.

Perhaps this should be the subject for a webinar - would anyone be interested in an open discussion about these topics?

SG

Simon Grant Fri 2 Jul 2021 10:00AM

Yes, very interested in open conversation about these topics, which I see as both hard and vital.

LJ

Laura James Fri 2 Jul 2021 10:29AM

Great questions. I might rephrase "How can we capture the insights and lessons from classical hierarchical orgs - and apply them to cooperative Orgs - to enable cooperatives gain the required efficiencies to start competing with 'conventional' hierarchical Orgs?" to be simply "How can cooperatives gain the required efficiencies to start competing" - because perhaps there are other ways to achieve the efficiencies, other than learning from the hierarchical orgs (who, as well as hierarchy, also have different (clearer?) goals, which may be part of why they can succeed).

Looking back at the survey question you posed initially, it strikes me as very broad, and perhaps mixing product categories (Email, SSO, document collaboration) with qualities (security, open source). The latter is how one might produce a product offering that caused people to switch...

If the original question seeks to create a 'store front', for existing offerings (eg meet.coop), then a commercial/hierarchical org would probably design that store front either by research with the target audience (which in this case is people not in this loomio, I would guess), or, by A/B testing - creating two or more store fronts, and seeing which worked best...

OS

Oli SB Fri 2 Jul 2021 10:30AM

great points - totally agree

D

dilgreen Sat 3 Jul 2021 11:41AM

Co-ops bring a great deal of baggage - which I don't think is helpful here. What this proposal is not, surely, is to assemble some massive enterprise-grade effort.
The intent of these questions, I take it, is to try to assess what appetites there are for collaborative usage of a common set of tools.
This need not have all the co-op baggage ('simple' rulesets have 20 pages of legalese, most of which is irrelevant - a sure way to make certain that governance is dysfunctional, imho, is to have the written rules and the actual practice divergent) - but could be a single-purpose mutual.
Here, everything gets simpler. The Member Agreement for the OpenCredit network, which @Oli SB and I developed with Dave Darby is a case in point; read it in five minutes, with no legal knowledge, understand it in ten. Risk is tightly constrained.
So it might be worth thinking about what single thing from these questionnaires might pull enough people together. If we were to start with nextcloud, for instance, a simple thing to do would be to make an approach to thegood.cloud, who clearly know what they are doing, and are reasonably priced (as opposed to webarchitects, who sadly charge an arm and a leg), to design a setup for us (of course, other providers may wish to quote). €450/month gets 25Tb. I pay €8/month for 100Gb. So right there is a 55% volume discount that can be shared between;

  • cheaper prices for us (I'd take no discount at all, happily)

  • setup and maintenance costs (minimal, since the good.cloud will do it) , and

  • the mutual's future projects fund, which can begin to find out which additional services are most desirable.

D

dilgreen Sat 3 Jul 2021 12:03PM

I pay €6.25/month to ProtonMail. They don't do volume discounts, but the 'professional' plan allows for 5 email addresses. So for orgs with 5 or fewer members, it would be @6.25/month. One snag is that they allow only 2 custom domains as standard. If we had enough users, though, we could negotiate that, I imagine.

You may object that neither thegood.cloud nor protonmail are co-ops (although they of course use oss). This is almost the point of my suggestion.
It's a Theory of change approach.
The first stage is to assemble a large customer group, agreeing to joint subscriptions to services which at least are non GAFAM and oss-based.
A simple proposition - services that are good at a better price than if you signed up as a loner. This has clear growth potential without complexity.

If it does grow, then it begins to have:

  1. a small regular income to support further growth - either in membership, or in additional service offerings (things like a jobs board, a forum, an internal trade credit club would be simple).

  2. market negotiating power . This could be used for lower prices, but more beneficially

    1. to demand / support improved integration between services, or better UI/UX for service we use - or would use if only..

    2. to make a market opening clear for a fully co-operative provider who can provide an equivalent to a commercial service - with a built-in investment community who can support these (each of which, of course, would join the mutual and use the other services)

For me, the advantage of this approach is that it is very simple to start, immediately builds momentum and aims to have negotiating power with providers and developers, rather than internal technical capacity.
It could become a consumer co-op at some stage, and need all that heavyweight governance - but at the outset, none of that is needed.

S

Shon Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:41PM

 
10 - Be available on all devices
 
11 - As cheap as Gmail so all can use it.
 
12 - Be powered by open source software
 
13 - Provide Single Sign On (SSO) access to file storage and other collaborative tools
 
14 - Work seemlessly with Gmail etc (e.g. sending/accepting calendar invites)
 
15 - Have an uptime guarantee
 
16 - Be governed as a co-operative
 
17 - Allow you to cancel, and export your data, at any time
 
18 - Never sell your data to anyone else
 
19 - Be as, or more secure than the “free” options
 
20 - Be easy to set up on your phone and computer
 
21 - Be expandable - so you can upgrade your storage
 
22 - Use any profit to help grow the commons
 
23 - Provide a robust migration mechanism from Gmail etc

Values

DS

Danyl Strype Sun 4 Jul 2021 3:11AM

It's great to see people taking the need to transition away form the datafarms more seriously, But I can't help but notice a lot of the comments here are just repeating what we were saying before, during, and after Open 2018, eg in threads in the Open App Ecosystem group. A notable exception is this:

The first stage is to assemble a large customer group, agreeing to joint subscriptions to services which at least are non GAFAM and oss-based.

Bang on. Without creating the means to fund paying the people working on the change we want, we continue to rely on ad-hoc, volunteer-driven efforts. The capacity and limitations of this style of organization are now painfully clear (in ethical tech and in other areas of politics). As are the risks of the 'if you build it, they will come' approach that new tech co-ops and social enterprises tend to inherit from DotCom start-up culture. This suggestion by @dilgreen offers a way to move beyond the known failure modes of both, in true cooperative fashion. If I may expand this into a 3-step plan:

1) Create a way for people to describe the services they want/ need and pledge a regular amount they believe they could afford to put towards the project. This doubles as a low-friction way to guage interest in the proposed service(s) and as market research for pricing weekly/ monthly/ yearly subscriptions.

2) Agree on the specifics of an MVP service and subscription rates, and write up a detailed description. Choose a system to actually start collecting those regular subscriptions (eg Liberapay, OpenCollective) and ask everyone who pledged to subscribe, with all contributions considered internally as pre-payments for the service, if it actually gets to launch.

3) Crowdfund for the seed funds to set up the MVP service, assuming no revenue for the first two years of development. Choose or set up an entity to handle the money, pay technical workers etc, so work can actually begin.

Ideally the crowdfunding could provide all of the seed funding to get the service off the ground, and the subscription pre-payments put aside to fund base operations for a while after the first two years. This approach builds on what worked to bootstrap Loomio (two rounds of crowdfunding), while building in a sustainable revenue sources from the get-go, and hopefully avoiding the need to bring in outside investors.

G

Graham Sun 4 Jul 2021 10:15AM

I'm in agreement with @Danyl Strype and @dilgreen that the way in to this is with money. @Oli SB talks about cooperation being hard. Inpart I agree, and I've been putting time and thought into 'Making Cooperation Easy', but that's perhaps more about the fact that because a competitive capitalist paradigm is so dominant it can be hard to get people to take a different view on things. The biggest reason in this context, and with meet.coop, for why cooperation is hard is because there isn't enough money to make the cooperation work. By aggregating purchasing power and building a small fund by selling discounted future use credits (for example) it could be possible to actually start paying people. Dil mentions that Webarchitects is expensive - that's because their business model is a) grossly undercapitalised (see above for why), and b) they like to have enough money to eat. So these two approaches are not at odds - in fact they are wholly aligned.

Moving on to growing the market for non GAFAM products and services - most/all people here probably are already on that journey if not already 100% non-GAFAM. There are already multiple providers of non-GAFAM services as we know - many of them already operating in the commons/coop economy. I don't think it makes sense to a) create another or b) aggregate our buying power so that we can opt to put all that money into providers that are not in the commons/coop space.

Rather I'd like to use that aggregated buying power to achieve two things above and beyond the actual provision of a service package:

  1. Bring the existing commons/coop providers closer together for mutual benefit - shared expertise/infrastructure/social branding/etc. and invest in that important development work, enabling them to reach out more effectively both individually and collectively to grow their commons/coop businesses. Such investment could even be made with a view to a return.

  2. Invest in growing the market by building partnerships with allies and developing an effective marketing strategy to bring more end users into range. Again, important work that needs to be paid for, and again is an investment which could potentially generate a return.

As an almost-aside, it's also worth just flagging up that work is well underway (currently within the Cotech network, but could and should become wider) to develop some new cooperative digital infrastructure - cooperatively owned and controlled servers sitting in cooperatively owned and controlled rackspace in a datacentre/digital exchange that is at least partly managed by a cooperative organisation. This facility will be going online soon and is ideally suited to hosting non-GAFAM services.

Very happy to participate in further talks on this project.

D

dilgreen Sun 4 Jul 2021 10:58AM

Thanks @Danyl Strype , @Graham .

So, a clear distinction point between two approaches seems to have emerged - with much else in fairly wide consensus between the last few commenters.

I'll try and make these two clear. If ppl (esp the active commenters) agree them (or, better, help refine them until they seem adequate and distinct), then this might form the basis for another poll @Oli SB ?

  • Get started with aggregating members to build a buyers mutual (non GAFAM, oss). Go for scale and see what members want to do.

or

  • Build a project which takes money/commitments up-front to drive development of some service provider / developer alliance/co-op by raising investment funds (non profit distributing/mutual, non GAFAM, oss).

with perhaps a two-stage amalgam option?

  • Build the buyers mutual on the basis of a joint commitment to launch the 'alliance building' project at some trigger point .

D

dilgreen Sun 4 Jul 2021 11:12AM

Just to say that thegood.cloud, from my interactions with the ppl that work there, seem to have good working conditions and be commercially viable without charging high prices - staff seem relaxed, personal, interested, free to make decisions, communications are personal and chatty. It has a very good vibe. Based in Holland. I am not trying to sell them, though.

If we have market heft, we can look for the best option according to our chosen criteria.

Just let's not let ideology make it non-viable.
Nothing against WebArchitects but if the business model does not produce real-world pricing, then no amount of being the right sort of people with the right ideology will make it work.

The proposition under discussion here quite probably has many commonalities with those the WebArchitects founders had. It will not be worth doing lots of work to end up where WA are (unless they are somewhere good that is not evident to me / relevant to this debate - which is entirely possible, in which case, well done them) - but would be great to build something that can synergise with them get to a better place.

D

dilgreen Sun 4 Jul 2021 11:23AM

Following @Danyl Strype 's links, I discovered that WA operate a gitlab instance at git.coop. - which is an excellent thing. This is free to VA coop members, presumably forever, for a suggested one-off organisational membership purchase of £100 (individuals £10). Nice offer - I think we should move MCS stuff there (we're already on gitlab, so low cost to move). But it's not much of a business model from WA's pov - wouldn't members happily pay a small subscription for that service? Wouldn't members be more confident in the persistence of that service if it was funded on that basis (see chat in the OAE channel linked around adding in a new 'dependency' to already precarious work).

TE

Tommi Elo Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:41PM

 
10 - Never sell your data to anyone else
 
11 - Never expose you to advertising
 
12 - Be powered by renewable energy
 
13 - Be powered by open source software
 
14 - Be as, or more secure than the “free” options
 
15 - Allow you to cancel, and export your data, at any time
 
16 - Be governed as a co-operative
 
17 - Be available on all devices
 
18 - Be easy to set up on your phone and computer
 
19 - Have great product support
 
20 - Have an uptime guarantee
 
21 - Be expandable - so you can upgrade your storage
 
22 - Use any profit to help grow the commons
 
23 - Provide Single Sign On (SSO) access to file storage and other collaborative tools

Better privacy than the so called "free" options which sell all of your life details

YK

Yasuaki Kudo Sun 27 Jun 2021 1:41PM

 
10 - Search Feature
 
11 - Large scale reliable operation with own data center and Internet backbone
 
12 - Be governed as a co-operative
 
13 - Be powered by open source software
 
14 - Never sell your data to anyone else
 
15 - Never expose you to advertising
 
16 - Be powered by renewable energy
 
17 - Use any profit to help grow the commons
 
18 - Allow you to cancel, and export your data, at any time
 
19 - Be available on all devices
 
20 - Be easy to set up on your phone and computer
 
21 - Have great product support
 
22 - Have an uptime guarantee
 
23 - Provide Single Sign On (SSO) access to file storage and other collaborative tools

If there is a coop Big Tech with similar scale and global reach, with free software and extreme transparency, I would not care if I have to pay for it😄

CCC

Chris Croome (Webarchitects Co-operative) Sun 4 Jul 2021 12:22PM

We are the primary users of git.coop (almost all the code we use to provision servers is public) and the thinking behind the launching of the service can be found in this Loomio thread and I also wrote about it in this meet.coop thread last year.

It is made available to members of our multi-stakeholder co-operative as a step towards us fulfilling the principles, autonomy and independence, education, training and information, co-operation among co-operatives and concern for community.

There are advantages to not having to measure and charge based on time, users, repos, disk usage, pipelines run or any other metric -- it means that it doesn't place an additional burden on us regarding invoicing, we don't need to spend time deleting users and repos for non-payment -- the service is basically self-service, with the bonus that because it is not open to the public we don't need to worry about spammers and crypto miners abusing the service (open sites such as GitLab and GitHub have had to deploy resources to combat abuses of this nature).

D

dilgreen Sun 4 Jul 2021 12:39PM

Thanks Chris. Useful info.

DS

Danyl Strype Mon 5 Jul 2021 5:56AM

I absolutely agree that a "buyers mutual", as @dilgreen puts it, is the place to start. If enough people are willing to put their money where our aspirations are, then we have a renewable funding resource and can decide where to to spend it. If existing cooperatives (eg meet.coop, CommonsCloud) offer everything we agree we need, there's not much point reinventing the wheel. But if there are services missing, we could potentially help bootstrap new co-ops to provide them, along the lines of my suggested approach.

MG

Monica Garriga Tue 6 Jul 2021 8:00AM

Hello all,
Thanks
@Oli SB for the initiative, it is very relevant.
At femProcomuns, the cooperative in Barcelona, developing CommonsCloud in intercooperation with other cooperatives and organisations, we are following this conversation, though not as closely as we would like, cause we have a few commitments at the moment…
We just wanted to let you know that femProcomuns' team now working behind CommonsCloud, David Gómez, David Jacovkis and my self would be very interested in participating in an exchange to see how different initiatives could coordinate among each-other and maybe even federate.

J

JDN Tue 6 Jul 2021 12:08PM

Everything is HARD to do, if you do not know how to do it.

And yes we have almost forgotten how to cooperate. We need to re-learn how to do it. We need to learn how to solve conflicts which are good for cooperation! Not bad! We just need to know how to handle them for the better of the group. (And yes sometimes you need to expel somebody, for they just can not cooperate…)

Here’s the strange thing. We are after all social species and we needed to cooperate to survive! Or even better - our natural ability to cooperate was essential for our tremendous evolutional success. And yet - we do not know how to cooperate?

The problem we have IMO is that in the so called “education process” we have been systematically brainwashed to un-learn our natural ability to cooperate and trained to embrace hierarchies. Just look at small children how they organise themselves while playing. And then we are send to kindergarten, where we have “the boss” that organises our play. We come to school to sit behind the desk for a ridiculous amount of time for a kid at six or seven years of age. And we are supposed to listen and repeat…Ans obey. Yes Sir. Follow orders. And - do not forget - be right all the time we are asked something. If we are wrong we do not get good grades which influences our future in getting at better schools… We need to have right answers when applying for a job… If wrong - off goes the job. We need to be right all the time!

Maybe this is the craziest legacy of education system - the great inability to solve conflicts. For we feel threatened when somebody thinks different. And we defend our “right view” with all the might. We need to be right. We have to - for we have round 20 years of experience of being right (if we were moderately successful -> 2years in kindergarten+8 primary+4secondary+4 or 6 or 8 years university). “And we fight for our right…”

Instead of seeing the conflict as interesting opportunity to explore why we see things differently to investigate what are each other’s assumptions. What are the lines of thinking, reasoning etc.. What are the hidden assumptions we are not even aware of… To come to such a different conclusions.

Yet we we argue and forcefully impose our “right views” on the opponent. Blinding ourselves of possible other views. And solutions that might lurk just in between.

And even though we are “thinking cooperation” we are still implying hierarchical approaches. We think about organisational structure, procedures, laws of conduct etc… And we try to hierarchically impose that on cooperation. It will not work.

“There is a reason hierarchical organizations dominate: They work. And they work well.”

Well I agree they do work extremely well. For 1 percent. Most of the time.

But just look at the state of the planet and the state of society. —> Capitalism is hierarchical by definition. You simply can not have capitalism that is not hierarchical. And hierarchical structures work well in the system that is hierarchical. But "it is no proof of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick system!" To paraphrase Jiddu.

If you define hierarchical modes as the ones where you have clear structures, chain of command, decision makers and followers, rules and procedures to follow, etc, etc … These hierarchical modes do work well under certain contexts and within certain limits -> where you know very well what is going on, what will happen if you press that button, pull that lever, etc. The moment you introduce ambiguity, chance… The hierarchical model collapses.

The reason that “hierarchical models work well” in our society is simply because of people involved in these structures. People that are responsible, take risks and take care of discrepancies by NOT following the rules. In other words they collaborate! They adapt to circumstances.

And if you are still not convinced. Think of what would happen to the system if suddenly everyone would start following the rules by the letter. Schiopero bianco comes in mind -> “DuckDuckGo it” if you do not understand the term. It seems to be Italian invention. :)

So we do know how to cooperate for we do it all the time. We are just confused a little bit. :)

There is however a thing that we could really “capture the insights and lessons from classical hierarchical orgs - and apply them to cooperative Orgs” . Unfortunately they are not really recorded/studied very well (ok at least I have not stumbled upon any work in this direction yet). And it is all the things we do - because we are responsible, emphatic human beings - to maintain the supremacy of hierarchy - against the rules of the same hierarchy.

The rest you just can not really apply. For the assumptions of the hierarchy and cooperation in CAS (complex adaptive system) are as different as they can be.

Hierarchy is concerned with maintenance of established structure of objects and processes between them. Hierarchically governed system are all about Status quo. Status quo of maintaining the top level people on the top level. While cooperation is all about development, evolution, relationships, feedback loops etc maintaining homeostasis. As in any proper CAS. What gives CAS properties are relationships and emergent results of these relationships. Not that much objects that current civilisation is so concerned with.

CAS is not something that is governed. It is something that is influenced. When you design CAS you do not design structure, you design relationships, responsibilities, feedback loops, reciprocity, fairness and freedom you grant to people to maintain these things in any structure they like and that spontaneously emerge out of it.

Being a mutual or co-op. You have to collaborate in either case.

Sorry for this looong rant. :)

WO

wouter@freeknowledge.eu Tue 6 Jul 2021 12:29PM

I'm following this thread with much interest, of course ;-P Since 2017 or so, and with more intensity in 2018 when several of us met in London during Open.Coop. Thanks to @Oli SB for igniting this :-) My take, citing key elements that have been said:

The first stage is to assemble a large customer group, agreeing to joint subscriptions to services which at least are non GAFAM and oss-based. @dilgreen

Bang on. Without creating the means to fund paying the people working on the change we want, we continue to rely on ad-hoc, volunteer-driven efforts. @Danyl Strype

Here lies a key challenge: from a users' PoV prices should be low and around what GAFAM is offering with all their advertising revenue and scale to have their gratis or freemium service. Webarchitects choose to count higher prices, while CommonsCloud and thegood.cloud choose to have somewhat lower prices. In any case, at current scales, none is earning a very decent income I'm afraid.

At meet.coop we also though we couldn't charge more than 10€/month for the starting membership fee (typically for individuals). There is a certain scale to reach fair wages, or "break-even" if we weren't accepting "sweat equity" to bootstrap the collective service.

In that sense I fully support @dilgreen when he states:

Get started with aggregating members to build a buyers mutual (non GAFAM, oss). Go for scale and see what members want to do.

To be sincere, IMHO it is key to have such a mutual/cooperative perspective from the start. It is not the same to start as a Ltd company and then once there's scale try to transform it into something socially more meaningful. Such structures mark the path ahead. If we want them to be collective venturess, then we should build them like that from day 1.

Several initiatives mentioned here have a multistakeholde perspective, combining user members and operational/producer members. That's a more complex starting point, but allows (forces?) us to explore how each class of members wants and can participate as it suits them best.

Build the buyers mutual on the basis of a joint commitment to launch the 'alliance building' project at some trigger point .

When we started meet.coop last year we had two main objectives: 1) to set up a mutualised BBB service; 2) build an alliance of cooperative cloud providers to strengthen each other and prepare for shared projects. Later we added a 3) encourage mutual support between (user) members, which is inspiring a new space called "commons.hour" to collectively construct the multistakeholder governance.

Continuing with the funding part of the initial phase (until reaching scale), I find interesting these twe contributions:

  • Crowdfund the startup phase, the initial development, like @Danyl Strype and others suggested

  • Pre-sell future services. By aggregating purchasing power and building a small fund by selling discounted future use credits (for example) it could be possible to actually start paying people. as @Graham suggests

It'd be good to explore how / when we adopt these stratgies best. And continue building the alliance. One potentially interesting collaboration could be in what @Graham mentioned:

to develop some new cooperative digital infrastructure - cooperatively owned and controlled servers sitting in cooperatively owned and controlled rackspace in a datacentre/digital exchange that is at least partly managed by a cooperative organisation. (Graham, tell us more about it :-))

+1 for @JDN "So we do know how to cooperate for we do it all the time."

in solidarity,

Wouter

G

Graham Wed 7 Jul 2021 1:18PM

In other news I read over on the Cotech discourse site at https://community.coops.tech that Autonomic cooperative has secured funding to pursue further development of their 'Coop Cloud' project: More on their site at https://coopcloud.tech/blog/our-new-blog-and-some-project-announcements/

To my mind this, along with other innovative tech developments that have been quietly getting sorted - I'm thinking Murmurations as a fine example - provide a valuable rallying point to help coalesce the gas cloud of cooperative/commons initiatives into a new star.

Platform 6 cooperative is already providing fiscal hosting for meet.coop and social.coop and would be pleased to widen that scope. Digital Life Collective can likewise bring some useful resources into the mix.

D

dilgreen Wed 7 Jul 2021 2:15PM

That looks very interesting. I like matrix.

M

mike_hales Wed 7 Jul 2021 5:02PM

@Graham Yes, this stuff is historic! Not neo feudalism though? Folks do speak of ‘reclaiming’ the (feudal? primitive?) commons. But under the present state of development of the species’ absurd powers to wreck the ecosphere, and in the days of recently-arisen Golemic power (aka edge computing, ubiquitous social (huh!) media, data analytics and the monetised web), surely there’s no game in town except making commons. All over again, from scratch.

The move to make a commons of free software tools, under multistakeholder globally distributed governance - and fair wages - is (b)leading edge? Way beyond anything the historical coop movement was equipped for? But nevertheless, in the spirit of Rochdale’s pioneers and ‘utopian’ socialists, who got edged out in the struggle over the ‘coop’ brand at the end of the 19th century?

SG

Simon Grant Wed 7 Jul 2021 5:46PM

Fascinating. Varoufakis' take on things is always of interest, though of course I want to keep recalling that his is only one of the possible narratives for this era without any single unified narrative. What would be of particular interest to me is to write more narratives of possible emerging futures that take into account his, without being limited by it. NOT “Varoufakis is wrong” but “Varoufakis has an interesting part, not all, of the truth”. I'm trying not just to be multi-perspectival, but to find points of dialogue between those perspectives.

G

Graham Thu 8 Jul 2021 9:31AM

Agreed. Clearly Yanis is coming at things from a fairly well defined macro-economic perspective, and I don't pretend to understand all of that. And I'm very open to other perspectives. My own take is is that tech is already very pervasive in most lives in more developed economies, and that is accelerating faster than we might think. The age of surveillance capitalism is very real.

Despite the assertion earlier in this thread that ditching GAFAM does not represent system change, it feels to me that this is a really important action to take regardless. It creates a platform, a bridge, on which and from which we can take further important steps, many of which won't even become clear until we've done the first things first.

M

mike_hales Thu 8 Jul 2021 10:26AM

tech is already very pervasive in most lives in more developed economies

yep. However, the phone is much more pervasive than that. Now dominant, as the device of choice, globally, North and South. Seems to me, we need to pay a whole lot more attention, in our provisioning of digital infrastructures, to the phone (and bandwidth poverty, and device-access poverty), as distinct from the laptop/desktop, and the FLOSS orthodoxy of self-hosting, on (and serving-to) full-featured, resource-rich computers with full-featured interfaces? This triggers many discrete issues . . Audio- and text- and repos of static docs, alongside video channels. Mesh networks alongside centralist broadband. etc etc.

G

Graham Fri 9 Jul 2021 4:48AM

I just got an email from Mozilla about their "privacy not included" programme (https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/). The message states:
*Privacy Not Included started as a small, part-time project here at Mozilla back in 2017. Over the past four years, we've seen consumer interest in protecting their privacy grow as we've helped consumers shop smart for connected products. It's been quite a ride, and today *Privacy Not Included is a full time project with an exciting update — we've hired our first full-time researcher!

So we're not alone in thinking this is a growing market opportunity.

D

dilgreen Fri 9 Jul 2021 7:55AM

Regarding 'system change'. In our recent presentation of the Credit commons Protocol, I did a slide on approaches to system change which, if I say so myself, I think is useful and which is not commonplace. Here's a link to that particular section of the recording - it's quite short.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1koUpspA1jw&list=PLV5qm5sGKOsQuDKa0_KZjzeDBw1trCBHQ&index=1&t=331s

D

dilgreen Fri 9 Jul 2021 8:03AM

In that vein, for real system change ((much deeper that GAFAM), i think we need a range of open protocols at the IP layer of the stack. These need not be complicated to build - versions of some of them exist. but taken together, they provide a platform for people to build from which would diminish the opportunities for enclosure.

In brief, they are:

  • Messaging (lots of existing candidates)

  • Identifiers (various candidates, mostly going in the wring direction imho)

  • Groups ( 'first-class citizen' status for the most important and fundamental human institution)

  • Exchange (economic sovereignty in means-of-exchange accounting : no tokens needed)

M

mike_hales Fri 9 Jul 2021 8:21AM

a slide on approaches to system change

@dilgreen It'd be good to see this as a stand-alone slide? And to have the bare bones of your narrative as written text. Audio and video are so opaque. Quicker to make, yes. But written text and static image are helpful partly bcos they're quicker to use - our built-in visual-gestalt machinery can go to work on these media. I like the story and it'd be good to be able to cut&paste it.

M

mike_hales Fri 9 Jul 2021 8:27AM

Likewise, this bullet list above. Looks like a helpful set of categories, and I'm halfway to accepting that they might possibly define an architecture. So might you write a slide on each? What are the 'wrong directions"? Why Groups and what's the difference of status re Individuals (and what about incorporated entities?)? What does 'economic sovereignty' mean - that "s" word is so slippery. We do need to be quite tight with our (re)ontologising? And spell out our value(ing). And just how might such an architecture diminish the opportinities for enclosure. The 64,000-credit question!

WO

wouter@freeknowledge.eu Fri 9 Jul 2021 9:24AM

this week two articles were published about meet.coop that you may appreciate and may want to spread:

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 9 Jul 2021 12:26PM

We will also need Production: grow and create goods and services to provision people and their environments with their means of life. Exchange is not enough and maybe not even needed. Provisioning is critical and often neglected in mutual credit systems, much as I love them otherwise.

Solawis are an interesting development in Europe. They are evolving from food to whole community economies: https://write.as/economic-networks/a-fractal-economy

WO

wouter@freeknowledge.eu Fri 9 Jul 2021 12:36PM

interesting, thanks @Bob Haugen The solawi seems like a form of Community Supported Agriculture, isn't it? It'd be great indeed if in the process of substituting capitalist inputs such initiative can network with others and become less and less dependent on the old system. I can see the fractal thinking.

D

dilgreen Fri 9 Jul 2021 1:09PM

I am having trouble seeing this as a protocol sitting at the layer immediately above IP - but i'm certain that is about my ignorance. The four I list seem like primitives with which one could build provisioning, but again probably my ignorance.

D

dilgreen Fri 9 Jul 2021 1:09PM

A note on exchange. I see exchange as only really useful for co-ordination across networks of out-groups. ie in circumstances where dunbar-scale interactions are just infeasible due to low bandwidth. Such co-ordination is, imho, the only basis on which we are currently capable of global co-ordination, which (again imho) is required in order to have the conversations we are having here (as an in group!) because of the systems with the most complex supply chains in the history of humanity = personal computers.
bob I know we have shared thoughts on this, but for completeness here is a link : https://crookedtimber.org/2012/05/30/in-soviet-union-optimization-problem-solves-you/

D

dilgreen Fri 9 Jul 2021 1:12PM

tweeted!

D

dilgreen Fri 9 Jul 2021 1:13PM

Yes, all very terse - sorry. I have a doc, but, as is so often the case with me these days, I arrived at this insight in the course of writing something else, did a scrappy document and have not justified the time to go back and polish it. This response helps!

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 9 Jul 2021 1:58PM

D

dilgreen Fri 9 Jul 2021 2:01PM

wow 1999! Good to be connecting with deep work before all sorts of stuff became 'obvious'

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 9 Jul 2021 2:06PM

Love that Cosma Shalizi article! And also the Red Plenty book! But neither Cosma nor the people who argued in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_calculation_debate understand how capitalist supply chains work and are coordinated now. See https://www.versobooks.com/books/2822-the-people-s-republic-of-walmart

I won't say more about that now but will switch to the topic of what's happening now in coordinated regional economic networks.

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 9 Jul 2021 2:14PM

A couple of examples of regional economic networks being organized at least somewhat bottom-up:
https://www.meadowlarkorganics.com/ grows grain and recently started a flour milling operation which provides flour for a few local bakeries which sell to local food cooperatives and restaurants.

http://www.fifthseasoncoop.com/ is a multi-stakeholder cooperative composed of farmers and institutions (schools and hospitals) and which also does some food processing, turning vegetable "seconds" into ready-to-cook frozen vegetable packages.

I helped to organize the second one, and we are customers of the first one.

JD

Jennifer Damashek Fri 9 Jul 2021 2:21PM

Thank you for sharing those links, Bob. Here in Virginia we have Sylvanaqua Farm.

https://www.sylvanaqua.com/

https://sylvanaquastore.square.site/mutual-aid

I find these projects so exciting because they address our most basic needs in a holistic framework of regenerating the natural world as well as the way we relate to each other, organize and feed each other.

Jennifer

Sent from ProtonMail for iOS

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 9 Jul 2021 2:39PM

Jennifer, thank you very much for tipping me to https://www.sylvanaqua.com/ !!! Beautiful!

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 9 Jul 2021 4:23PM

Wow, we have wandered thru a lot of different topics in this thread! Might be good to separate out the ones that hijacked the original topic. (I am one of the guilty hijackers...8-\

M

mike_hales Wed 14 Jul 2021 12:50PM

Invitation to a gathering, exploring issues encountered by coops provisoning FLOSS tools. Topic: Infrastructuring & federating around the FLOSS toolstack. Includes a small slide deck outlining agenda items, and a date poll. Convened under meet.coop's `commons.hour'. A response to current discussions - in this thread, in Coop Cloud matrix, with MayFirst Movement technology, in developing a handbook for meet.coop, . Etc

Please respond in the date poll, so we have an idea how big the gathering could be? And of course, chip in, in the Discourse forum thread linked above. Cheers.

Item removed

M

mike_hales Wed 28 Jul 2021 8:25AM

Date poll is closed but if you can join please add your name in the poll under that date. Cheers. See forum thread: https://forum.meet.coop/t/infrastructuring-federating-around-the-floss-toolstack/682/7

OS

Oli SB Wed 8 Sep 2021 11:20AM

Hi All,
I am pleased to announce we have now launched: https://openweb.systems/ providing secure, open source email and nextcloud accounts, powered by renewable energy. This is a first stepping stone towards providing a more comprehensive service incorporating BBB for video calls and other services too, via SSO.

D

dilgreen Wed 8 Sep 2021 11:52AM

Well done!

I just tried to sign up and got 'Internal Server error' at the payment gateway (specifically, having filled in all my card details etc and pressed 'Sign up now'.

Trying again results in 'An account is already registered with your email address. Please Log in.'

Logging in requires a password, which i don't have. (was never asked to enter).

No welcome email to help me out.

OS

Oli SB Wed 8 Sep 2021 12:23PM

Oh Golly - that's not good! Thanks for the feedback - let me look into this ASAP and come back to you.

D

dilgreen Wed 8 Sep 2021 12:23PM

Have to say it feels just a little weird that you kick-started a really rich conversation with your poll, did not participate much in the conversation, then went away and did something that is presented as a fait-accompli, which did not go down either of the routes which were developed through the conversation (no reason it should, but with no feedback its hard to understand what you are doing). Leaves me feeling as if I have been a member of a focus group for some marketing outfit.

OpenWeb proclaims itself as a co-op - without anything else on the website saying anything about co-ops (nothing in the terms except the name of a business : Collective Tools ek. för., Kjellmansgatan 10, 414 63 Göteborg_)
Signup does not tell me if I'm joining a co-op or if I'm a customer of a workers co-op.

I rarely sign-up for anything like this these days without finding out a fair bit about the business model. I can't do this from the website.

I mean, I'll sign up, give you the benefit of the doubt, knowing and trusting your motivations - and look forward to developments, too.

But it feels odd right now.

SG

Simon Grant Wed 8 Sep 2021 12:42PM

+1 to all that Dil said above

OS

Oli SB Wed 8 Sep 2021 2:55PM

Hiya Dil

Yeah - I was surprised and impressed by the depth of the discussion which developed from the poll.

There are some important observations, links and ideas above... I had no idea it would stimulate such a rich response! Maybe we should split out some new threads to continue some of the discussions?

I liked your idea "to assemble a large customer group..." and the other ideas around "federation of servers / co-op infrastructure" but TBH, simply didn't have the bandwidth to contribute ... or push these forward. As I've mentioned before, ideas are 2 a penny - but finding time to make them happen is hard especially when it requires coordinating lots of people with varying interests and levels of commitment.

Meet.coop is an amazing experiment in this area - and one I continue to work on ... (I'm one of the 3 people that manage customer support for Meet.coop) but it's also a great example of what happens when there are not enough funds to pay fair wages... and how co-ops which are not structured in a way that makes anyone responsible and accountable for specific tasks, tend to lag and get bogged down with inefficiencies as things slip between the cracks...

The idea of federated co-op infrastructure on which we can run all our co-op / commons building projects fills me with awe. But the idea of trying to assemble a group of underpaid co-op workers and Sys Admins to manage the tech, gaining agreement on a common tech stack, and developing the processes to enable anyone to chip in as a tech support worker - and for customers to get a decent level of support in their language of choice fills me with dread!

So, rightly or wrongly, I took the input to the survey above (which was 100% customer research ;) ) and used it to design a service which I hope ticks the required boxes for more than a few people here... working on the theory that the more co-op offers there are out there, and the better we can market these, the more options people have for switching away from GAFAM... and that can't be a bad thing.

But, more specifically, I'm also working with @Leo Sammallahti on a new idea for a marketing co-op, which seeks to aggregate Customer data from co-ops and pay members for receiving promotions from other co-ops. I see this as one possible route to solving the "capital conundrum" (co-op can't use VC funds, so constantly struggle to achieve market share and hence scale) and stimulating the growth of the co-op sector as a whole.

Open Web Systems is a simple collaboration between The Open Co-op and Collective Tools. I like this because we have complimentary skills and didn't need to re-invent anything... and we didn't need a large team to make it happen.

For now, OWS is a simple worker co-op but will hopefully evolve into a fully fledged multi-stakeholder co-op... but you're right, this needs clarifying on the website. We also need to explain how all profits will be ploughed back into related commons and co-op building projects, but I wanted to go live asap, (possibly too soon given your payment didn't work!! Rest assured, this is being fixed as I type!!) so that page is still forthcoming...

Thanks again for being our first subscriber! :)
Oli

OS

Oli SB Wed 8 Sep 2021 3:09PM

I'm happy to report that the 'Internal Server error' reported by Dil has been fixed now and you should be able to sign up without any issues - but if anyone spots more bugs please let us know!

SG

Simon Grant Thu 9 Sep 2021 4:24AM

It's more nearly there! I still can't complete because it's telling me that my email address already has an account, but when I try to log in and reset my password, it seems to have forgotten about me. "Invalid username or email." Caught in limbo!

G

Graham Thu 9 Sep 2021 4:07PM

Good to see another provider entering the mix. I've got more Nextcloud and email accounts than I know what to do with, so I shan't be signing up, but interested to keep in touch.

As a promoter of the federation concept, to be clear I'm not focussed on nailing down standards on tech stacks and process - that sort of work only makes sense where it can add real value, and I think we are a long way away from that. What I do think can add value is some shared branding - a simple social brand mark that makes a simple statement about a few key points: cooperative ownership, privacy respecting, open source (for example). A basic solidarity platform that can be gradually worked on. I think it could be implemented quickly and cheaply, and if promoted by all parties, could deliver real business benefits to all involved.

OS

Oli SB Fri 10 Sep 2021 9:56AM

DOH! This was a bug which has now been resolved. I've sent you a voucher code for 1 month free - and can offer the same to anyone else who helps spot any other bugs or errors...
Thanks for testing - we have had some people subscribe without issue so I'm pretty confident this is fixed now. :)

MW

matt wilson Sun 12 Sep 2021 3:22PM

I seemed to set up my account ok but now it’s telling me my username
doesn’t exist. I emailed the address linked on the login page and have

just had that message returned as undeliverable.

All it takes
for evil to flourish
is for good people
to fund it.

OS

Oli SB Sun 12 Sep 2021 6:35PM

Sorry to hear this Matt - we are looking into it and will reply asap - I'll email you directly.
Oli

MW

matt wilson Mon 13 Sep 2021 7:54AM

Thanks Oli. As this is a public thread I should say to any one reading
that it’s looking like this was user error (my fault) and not a fault of

the system!

All it takes
for evil to flourish
is for good people
to fund it.

OS

Oli SB Tue 14 Sep 2021 4:23PM

Thanks Matt,
We changed some wording in the emails which get sent out when you sign up - to make it more obvious. So thanks for the feedback ;)

RJ

Rich Jensen Mon 11 Oct 2021 1:50PM

As a 'google.docs' replacer, I've been having a good initial experience with the crytpad.fr suite of web-based 'office' collaboration tools. One can produce and share encrypted documents and other services with one's 'contacts'. The free account has been satisfactory so far.

Perhaps a collaboration of collaborators?

SG

Simon Grant Tue 12 Oct 2021 8:50PM

Have people seen the new /e/ cloud offering? good, eh? https://e.foundation/ecloud/

WO

wouter@freeknowledge.eu Wed 13 Oct 2021 8:22AM

Hi @Simon Grant : yes, it comes with their degooglified Android mobile phone system. From a personal experienced: for years we firmly support the Fairphone phone for its repairability and conscient supply chain. But I wasn't happy with the Google Play dependency that came with it. So some years ago I installed LineageOS on it, but then some time later when I was having certain hardware issues, the FP team didn't want to support me. Unless I reinstalled their OS with Google stuff.

When the FairPhone 3 came out, soon afterwards the e.foundation started offering it with their version of LineageOS, with added support for compatibility for apps with certain Google Play dependencies. Long story short, my wife and I are enjoying a google-free Android on arguably the best phone. And with almost any app that my friends have as well. Even wikiloc works most of the time (apparently heavily dependent on Play) , Whatsapp works (with the watomatic auto-responder telling people that I'm really leaving that network now, talk to me @ element.io ;-)) my bank app works etc.

And you get an account at their NextCloud service included.

I haven't had any serious support requests yet, but my FP3 is covered by guarantee through e.foundation (their french company), and I'm not required to change my OS. So far pretty decent. How about you?

BH

Bob Haugen Wed 13 Oct 2021 12:25PM

@wouter@freeknowledge.eu thanks for all the details. Can you use the phone for both wifi and cell network phone calls and text messages? We use https://republicwireless.com/ (as of now, looking at some alternatives) which defaults to wifi if available. (We have no cell coverage where we live.)

But I need a new phone and won't get one without a replaceable battery (main problem with current phone, otherwise I could just keep using it, damn their wasteful hides). So FairPhone attracts me.

WO

wouter@freeknowledge.eu Thu 14 Oct 2021 8:39AM

Hi @Bob Haugen we also have somewhat limited mobile coverage at home. Sometimes I use the call capabilities of signal, telegram or whatsapp, depending on with whom. Or I walk to a better coverage spot to call over the mobile network. But that may not help you. There's also the option to call over the SIP protocol - session initiation protocol, you'll probably be aware of that -. On Android there are great apps to use that protocol, like SIPdroid, and you can make calls over wifi or anything that provides a reasonable internet connection. For years (since 2006 I believe) we have been using that both at home and at the Free Knowledge Institute. At home we add credits to an account at localphone.com to call out to the regular PSTN phone lines, and pay a small monthly fee to rent an incoming number. It can terminate at our desk phone terminal and/or at a SIP client like SIPdroid. Add to that some cheap Asterisk service (PBXes.org for ex) and you can share this with your household. But I'm drifting off! Fairphone also allows to "extend calls with wifi", and that's probably the short answer you were looking for ;-) choosing a Calling preference "Call over WiFi - if wifi is unavailable, use mobile network".

BH

Bob Haugen Thu 14 Oct 2021 9:55AM

Thanks a lot. For both the long and short answers.

But it looks like Fairphone 3 is not available in the US. And if I select US for phones in eSolutions, this is the only one available: https://esolutions.shop/shop/e-os-teracube-2e/

WO

wouter@freeknowledge.eu Fri 15 Oct 2021 8:24AM

thanks @Hugh Barnard for sharing. Does this confirm that LineageOS / e/OS don't snoop on user data unless you have google apps installed? That would allow me to sleep better ;-)

CCC

Chris Croome (Webarchitects Co-operative) Fri 15 Oct 2021 8:26AM

The graphs are wrong with regard to LineageOS because, as the report says:

Apart from Google’s GApps, no third-party system apps on the LineageOS handset were observed to perform data collection.

Of course GApps will send data to Google, if you don't want that don't install GApps, they are not shipped with LineageOS, you have to manually install them... 🙄

CCC

Chris Croome (Webarchitects Co-operative) Fri 15 Oct 2021 8:31AM

I think LineageOS defaults to using Google DNS servers, but you can change that to others, for example under "Private DNS" enter one.one.one.one to use the Cloudflare public DNS (I think you can only use a domain name here, not an IP address).

HB

Hugh Barnard Fri 15 Oct 2021 8:44AM

Thanks for the extra commentary, v. useful. I'm hoping, as many others, for affordable, non Android, non iOS...

CCC

Chris Croome (Webarchitects Co-operative) Fri 15 Oct 2021 8:56AM

That already exists, the Pine64 phone is the affordable option for a non-Android Linux phone (note that is more for developers and hobbyists than consumers) and if you want one with more power there is the Purism Librem 5 phone.

HB

Hugh Barnard Fri 15 Oct 2021 10:41AM

Yes, aware of it, but it's 'beta'. I've reverted to a feature phone actually, don't need all that other stuff in a phone.

M

mike_hales Fri 15 Oct 2021 5:30PM

It does indeed look good. Not quite so good as it looks though, in practice. Twice in recent months I've tried to buy the Fairphone/e-OS package. The French eFoundation site has been out of stock in Fairphones. And their supposed business ally in the UK, The Phone Coop, has Fairphones but is unable to supply one with anything but the Google Android OS. So my only option seems to be to install the e-OS on a Fairphone myself - a sysadmin task that I don't relish AT ALL. I'm still dithering. Anyway, the commercial reality hasn't yet escaped the realm of geekiness, somehow?

M

mike_hales Fri 15 Oct 2021 5:34PM

I 've heard that e-OS doesn't work in the US as well as some other non-Google phone OS's may do. There was a thread in social.coop a couple of months back - Nathan Schneider contributed this insight, I think.

M

mike_hales Fri 15 Oct 2021 5:39PM

more for developers and hobbyists than consumers

Yes. And my experience in the UK with the Phone Coop (post above) seems to be pushing me into a hobbyist/dev role with respect to e-OS, which I'm VERY reluctant to adopt. Life's too short.

SG

Simon Grant Fri 15 Oct 2021 5:43PM

many thanks for all the info and views here. Would anyone like to join with me in a peer-group effort to install eOS to replace Android? I currently have a Fairphone 3 with Android. I'm inclined to agree with @mike_hales about reluctance to do this alone, but I would be much more confident about doing it collectively.

M

mike_hales Fri 15 Oct 2021 6:08PM

I haven't yet taken the plunge on a Fairphone3. But if Simon's proposal starts to gather support, I might just take that step. Simon's collective approach might make the difference. I've held off using a smartphone until now (and I absolutely don't wish to be accessible to the internet 24/7, surveillance-free or otherwise) but so many things in living today increasingly require one . .

HB

Hugh Barnard Sat 16 Oct 2021 5:37AM

Yep, that's the problem, being dragged by insistent others into smartphone world, normally by non-technical people who like 'free' (and easy) stuff, one central example being whatsapp. My running club uses that as a communications medium, for example. So it's one thing to develop or choose nice open things and another to start to persuade ordinary people to use them.

CCC

Chris Croome (Webarchitects Co-operative) Sat 16 Oct 2021 10:41AM

If anyone is interested in running LineageOS without GApps (see the supported devices) and using DAVx⁵ to sync contact and calendars with Nextcloud server(s) and using the Nextcloud client to automatically upload photos and provide access to files then I could help with this as it is what I have been doing for years. I believe this is basically what eOS provides.

M

mike_hales Sat 16 Oct 2021 12:13PM

This is a great offer Chris thanks. I guess I ought to do my homework, regarding just what eOS/eFoundation offers. One thing is, their own Cloud service is part of the deal - dunno how this compares with the NextCloud bundle. But having a NextCloud (or two!) already is a relevant factor.

Another thing is, they maintain a catalogue of Android apps, indexed according to their depth of en-Google-ment.

I don’t know whether eOS is just further-tweaked LineageOS, or what. At that level, it all gets a bit geeky and hard to figure in the documentation of eOS. Anyone know this?

CCC

Chris Croome (Webarchitects Co-operative) Sat 16 Oct 2021 12:33PM

As far as I'm aware eOS is a "further-tweaked" LineageOS -- some apps are pre-installed.

M

mike_hales Sat 16 Oct 2021 12:53PM

Some current reflection on newly released Pinephone in mastodon
https://fosstodon.org/@normandc/107108445629181237

WO

wouter@freeknowledge.eu Mon 18 Oct 2021 10:46AM

Hi Chris! about /e/OS: there's this middleware on android that allows proprietary apps to authenticate and workwith location data with the GAFAM services. The lack of that made it impossible to run many proprietary apps on LineageOS, ranging from one's banking app (at least in my case) to wikiloc and so on. Over the years I have come to accept that some of those apps I find convenient to have (like when some years ago I gave up Whatsapp and missed out on many parties of my friends who are not so much into free-as-in-freedom..., so now I'm running whatsapp for them, still...). Long story short: /e/OS develops microG wich is a free software substitution of that. That was one piece of magic that made me switch. Possibly more recent version of LineageOS incorporate this stuff (!)

Then there's the other thing: of having vendor support. A certain amount of FairPhones do have issues that would normally be covered under guarantee. But not if you install another OS. That happened to me. And I can understand their policy in the sense that they cannot support custom ROMs installed by users. Fair enough. What I cannot understand so well is that they have no Google-free option that is supported. Maybe we should do a little more research and/or campaign so that they really adopt /e/OS as a supported option?

That all said, it's certainly emancipatory to install and run your own custom ROM, and having a peer group including Chris' support to share experiences is great.

CCC

Chris Croome (Webarchitects Co-operative) Mon 18 Oct 2021 11:03AM

Possibly more recent version of LineageOS incorporate this stuff (!)

No, it still needs to be manually installed. It is true that many apps won't work without Google Play services, however some apps that claim they are needed work fine without them and some don't need them at all (for example WhatsApp and Signal).

KW

Kyle Wesley Wed 20 Oct 2021 11:25AM

Hey, very interesting discussion so far! I haven't read all of the comments, as there's a lot to follow. I thought I'd share my perspective tho as I've been down this (digital (mutual-)sovereignty) rabbit hole many times and realised there's really no alternative that goes deep enough into the roots of our digital ecosystems and social ecologies to unearth the current hegemonic paradigm.

I'm building an open-source OS called KaleidOS. It's based on NixOS (reproducible & declarative system configs) and will include Julia (advanced, machine-augmented, sense-making capabilities) to analyse & visualise data piped across from Holochain (p2p coordinated agency protocols).

This is quite a simplified description but provides an overview of the general direction I'm developing towards. Currently I'm building the prototype into something I can use daily. A quick example to highlight the depth of complexity possible in this approach:

Using the nix-like 'packaging system' for data graphs, it's possible to encapsulate a "contextualised worldview" and share it with other people. This means you'd be able to provide a window into the way you see reality. With a relatively simple sense-making tool, a mind-map, we'd be able to share metadata about the underlying connections we've made - sharing this enables other people to either view your perspective individually, overlay your perspective onto theirs to see similarities and differences, or merge perspectives into something morelike a holographic representation. Let's say the person sharing is considered a validated "expert" in their field, well we'd be able to bring their understanding (articles, datasets, notes, etc) into our perspective to make better sense of our world. From here, we can act more effectively.

I'll shift away from Linux completely once Redox (kernel written in Rust) is mature enough. It's also likely I'll add Bevy (Rust-based data-driven game engine) to display a 3D living map of Earth in which flows (deep wealth, multicapital metacurrencies) can be visualised and played with. Very little of this is new, altho there's a lot more I haven't described here. There's a lot of other emerging projects I see hope in (Mumurations is interesting), and am very open to expanding the tech stack once the groundwork is done.

This work is intimately tied to another project called Venture Beyond: a co-op adventure game of thrivability. Essentially, it's a story more than anything; one of imagination, adventure, and belonging. In which we're exploring the meaning of human experience through conversations, liminal spaces, and deep expeditions into nature, as the source of an unfolding expressive capacity towards thriving deep wealth ecologies. This origin point allows us to strip back the social conditioning of our modern world, individually and collectively, to focus our attention on what's most important. Only by understanding our "why" can we build technologies that envision, embody, and express coherence from the internal socio-ethical realms through every layer of community out to the emergent properties of deep wealth catallaxies.

If any of this resonates, I'm happy to discuss further! Let me know your thoughts. And thanks for reading :)

KW

Kyle Wesley Wed 20 Oct 2021 1:04PM

This didn't come up when I searched the page:

EDIT: I added some more info

F-Droid is an installable catalogue of FOSS (Free and Open Source Software) applications for the Android platform. The client makes it easy to browse, install, and keep track of updates on your device. F-Droid is available on LineageOS.

An important idea in Matrix is Interoperability. This means that Matrix is open to exchanging data and messages with other platforms using an Open Standard. We refer to the connection to other platforms as bridging. - this could allow people to use proprietary software without actually installing it on their devices (might require another device to register all those accounts).

If you're collaborating with files, sharing connectivity can be managed through https://syncthing.net/

I have a Samsung Galaxy 4s for anything requiring official apps and am about to install LineageOS w/ F-Droid on a OnePlus 5. I can share my experience with the above setup if anyone is interested.

YK

Yasuaki Kudo Wed 20 Oct 2021 9:41PM

Hello!

This is a little bit similar to Kyle's idea - I have been working with my friends recently to plant the seeds for what I call something like 'Solidarity Economy IT Network'.

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2021-10/msg00003.html

There are spectrums of IT stack from the most capital intensive (chip making comes to my mind, costing 10s of billions of dollars, to the least (just someone's custom library) - the idea is that we can and should carve out a niche in the least capital intensive areas.

The perceived 'Necessary Capital' for an enterprise seems dubious anyway - after all, the kind of typical 'Software Startup' that gets the entry level evaluation of 1 billion dollars consists of just what, a few hundred employees?

If we create a welcome environment for everyone to participate and co-develop, I hope we can outnumber such startups and create a solid product without asking for Capital from 'Investors'. 😄

M

mike_hales Sun 14 Nov 2021 2:31PM

Is there anyone here who runs MacOS on their laptop, and wants to install eOS (Lineage OS) on a Fairphone? I discover that eOS has automated installation routines that run on Linux and Windows laptops, but not on MacOS - so this will have to be done manually.

@Chris Croome (Webarchitects Co-operative) offered to guide/support this kind of manual set-up process. So: can we form a small club, to benefit from this generous offer by Chris? And maybe, document it too, for future use without calling on Chris? I don't yet own a Fairphone 3+, but will buy one once I know whether I'm going it alone, or in a partnership/club.

The Phone Coop in the UK is missing a trick, by being currently unable to sell Fairphones with eOS installed (even though they're in some kind of business alliance with e-Foundation). So we might be able to push them a little further, into Mac support as well as support for Linux/Windows?

M

mike_hales Sun 14 Nov 2021 2:42PM

Highlighting this response for @wouter@freeknowledge.eu and @Simon Grant who were interested in Fairohone, ealier in this thread.D'you know of others who might want to install eOS from MacOS?

BH

Bob Haugen Sun 14 Nov 2021 2:56PM

I am really happy to see people working on economic systems. As many of you know, @lynnfoster (who doesn't seem to be mentionable here due to some Loomio weakness) has been working on a vocabulary for solidarity economic software modules, apps, communities, and systems, so they can all communicate with each other in mutually-understandable economic terms. I help a bit and cheerlead in social media like this. The vocabulary lives at https://valueflo.ws/ . Implementations are in progress in several software ecosystems and projects, for example, Holochain, ActivityPub, FabCity, and a high school fablab network in Milwaukee Wisconsin.

We like to collaborate. Ping me here if you want to talk.

SG

Simon Grant Sun 14 Nov 2021 3:32PM

Personally, I don't know others. For me it would be eOS from Android. All not top of my current priority list, but still interested if interest develops in other people.

M

mike_hales Sun 14 Nov 2021 8:11PM

eOS from Android is catered for with an existing automated installation routine.

OS

Oli SB Tue 16 Nov 2021 12:03PM

I published a post about Gmail surveillance and Open Web Systems ;) https://open.coop/2021/11/16/if-you-value-your-privacy-you-should-stop-using-gmail/

M

mike_hales Tue 16 Nov 2021 2:02PM

Good pitch :)

I just checked up on Notes in Nextcloud, to see whether this app can be used like Hedgedoc. Answer:, only partly. Yes, notes can be markdown :) No, notes can't be publicly shared. Is that correct?

So: for public sharing of Markdown docs (eg bullet lists of helpful links) a user would need to create files in the NextCloud Files app?

OS

Oli SB Tue 16 Nov 2021 3:10PM

Hi @mike_hales You can share notes publicly, not directly from the Notes app... but once you've made a note you can go to Files and share it from there - like this

it's a slightly clunky process but there is an issue to make sharing single notes easier https://github.com/nextcloud/notes/issues/38 and work in progress to switch the Notes editor to use markdown https://github.com/nextcloud/notes/issues/331 ...

You're just a little ahead of the curve ;)

M

mike_hales Fri 3 Dec 2021 7:34PM

Update on de-Googled Fairphone 3+ - this has been out of stock but is now in stock at e-solutions: https://esolutions.shop/shop/murena-fairphone-3-plus/

So, phew, I won't now be looking for support in installing LineageOS from MacOS - thanks @Chris Croome (Webarchitects Co-operative) for offering.

D

dilgreen Wed 2 Feb 2022 9:40AM

A growing and dynamic group that I am involved with (the Circular Trade Analytics group [CTA] - finance and economics for the producer credit economy) is 'growing up' - needing more than a Telegram channel alongside our fortnightly meetings/events.

A typical debate around whether to go to slack/Discord/Mattermost/Whatever ensued - won't bore you with that.

It surfaced an interesting split, though, between those who find the 'anonymous god' of the corporate/centralised 'Service Level Agreement' more reassuring than the 'own our own conversations' approach that is obviously promoted here.

The crux of the matter is governance: with Mattermost, the admin can see everything, delete any message - a local god, bound only by local governance (whatever that might be).

This turns the argument about centralised corporate vs self-owned into a conversation which feels urgent and immediate, rather than a matter of principle/pragmatism.

Because if we are to own our own data, and if the conversations are non-trivial - in other words, might really have an impact on people's material existence, which is the point of the CTA work - then there are two issues:

  1. who controls that data - and how can they be simultaneously 'interested' and 'disinterested'?

  2. how do we manage when there is an internal dispute?

Elinor Ostrom's answer is the only robust one, imho - the existence of 'trusted third party' services - both for custodianship, and for arbitration. Both of these services have to have a 'business model' - they have to be paid for, at some level, and people delivering those services have to have good lives doing so. This is not a matter of unpaid trustees.

Here, Openweb systems are the defacto god of my nextcloud data - I assume that there are good backup, failover mechanisms in place - and I assume, too, that no-one is trying to crack the encryption on my data (lol). I can afford to have a relatively low level of confidence in this - commensurate with the scale and newness of the service - primarily because a/ it's only my data - I'm not accountable to anyone else, and b/ since it's just me, I'm not likely to disagree with myself about what data is acceptable or not.

That won't do, though, for more 'serious' ventures. And serious is the name of the game.

To make it concrete; what CTA should really have is:

  • a hosted Mattermost at openWeb, with an SLA that offers the following:

    • all the normal sysop stuff: updates, security, uptime, backups, failover etc - all as normal

    • user management / admin that is simultaneously high quality (interested), and custodial - responsible, but without influence over group decisions. Custodians perform their function in accordance with instructions from the data owner - without question, unless such instructions take them outside the bounds of governance rules, when they must exercise a simple veto - (Sorry, Dave, I can't do that). So that CTA members can feel just as well held as they might by a gafam outfit in day-to-day terms (1:1 messages private, no chance of others in the group rewriting history in the event of a dispute etc), while also having the confidence that 'our data is our data'.

    • access to arbitration services in the event of internal issues that result in the custodian being asked to do things which they refuse to do - act outside the governance agreement.

This is not a demand, or even a suggestion, that openWeb set up these services (although hosted mattermost would be interesting, since we're about to start paying someone for this...), rather a setting out of some conditions which I see as necessary for the 'ditching gafam' agenda to move forward convincingly.

The growing nexus of the Credit Commons Society, Mutual Credit Services and the Circular Trade Analytics group - in particular the first tow, will be developing ideas and practice around the custodial and arbitration service ideas, in relation to MCS' business model of acting as 'service member' in Credit Commons-based mutual exchange networks.

Really interested to hear from anyone here on any of this.

M

mike_hales Wed 2 Feb 2022 11:12AM

👍 At the tedious level though . . "needing more than a Telegram channel" . Did Matrix/Element figure in the assessment? And why has Mattermost come out top? I'm finding Matrix working very well for collaboration in meet. coop, and wasn't at all impressed by my time in Mattermost in Diglife.

M

mike_hales Wed 2 Feb 2022 11:31AM

Q: 'trusted third party' services - both for custodianship, and for arbitration. Both of these services have to have a 'business model' - they have to be paid for, at some level, and people delivering those services have to have good lives doing so.

A: An infrastructure commons-coop? meet. coop is grappling with this - though, meet. coop provisions a stack of platform/media/venue spaces, not operating at the level of a recorded-data commons, which is knottier perhaps. meet. coop doesn't hold hardly any private member/user data, its media space is mainly public exchange (a public Forum). The challenge of 'trusted third party service' is being engaged in meet. coop as stewarding in a stack of commons, via a multistakeholder coop organisational form.

A lot hinges on the scale - the number of participants in the commons? Moderation by 'elders' in the community is one thing when members are visible to one another in a day to day way? And another, when participants are not basically functioning as commoners, and simply have a transactional consumer/user relationship with a media platform. The latter relationship dominates, as the population of participants gets big?

[Shrugs shoulders] meet. coop might evolve a response to that challenge as it grows, and the relationship between worker/admin Members and user Members gets more fully articulated and politicised. Designing for very many participants from the start calls for 'theory' - and I'm not sure there's a lot of that about, as distinct from strongly held opinion? My money still would be on 'commons-of-commons' as the way to try to go. And evolving in practice, thro a tolerant, trusting, attentive relationship between membership sub-communities. Lotsa work, that!

CCC

Webarchitects could probably provide a Mattermost server on the terms you have suggested, get in touch via support@webarchitects.coop if you are interested.

BH

Bob Haugen Wed 2 Feb 2022 1:54PM

Just one more data point, not meant to be definitive: I would personally much rather use Mattermost than Matrix/Element, but different strokes for different folks...

Also, these long threads become nigh impossible in Loomio. Notification links never get to the right comment, and ctrl-F does not seem to work...do I had to scroll to find Mike's comment. Talk about tedious!

OS

Oli SB Wed 2 Feb 2022 3:48PM

Open Web Systems can offer Mattermost - I'll get in touch with you directly @dilgreen

OS

Oli SB Wed 2 Feb 2022 3:49PM

you're not wrong Bob, Loomio is not very easy to navigate! Maybe we'll switch to Mattermost ourselves at some point - although I'm loathed to open up the 'which forum' chat (again!)

M

mike_hales Wed 2 Feb 2022 11:12PM

Dunno if this has been raised b4 here (apologies if yes) . . but I see these federated initiatives being referred to in social.coop Mastodon: and in principle the initiatives may be of interest here?

  • Chatons, an initiative by Framasoft https://www.chatons.org/en/node/1 "This collective aims to bring together structures offering free, ethical and decentralised online services in order to allow users to quickly find alternatives"

  • Librehost https://libreho.st/ "a network of cooperation and solidarity that uses free software to encourage decentralisation through federation and distributed platforms."

In that thread there also are references to federated alternatives to Web3 and collectivised Big Data resources - less relevant here?

WO

wouter@freeknowledge.eu Thu 3 Feb 2022 9:44AM

Chatons is french a cooperative cloud/hosting service with tons of free software apps; a more localised variant of framasoft so to say. I met some of their team in Montpellier a couple of years ago when we went there for the CommonsCamps with Remix and femProcomuns.

LibreHost: IIRC Chris / Webarchitects is one of the co-founder and we said with meetcoop that we should also link & be part of that network. Basically a matter of adding a manifest file and requesting to be part of the directory.

D

dilgreen Thu 3 Feb 2022 3:25PM

Not my decision, group choice. I don't have the luxury of using what i like, much - have to use everything, since am operating in so many contexts. Ppl matter more than tech, even if they are using tech that distorts the landscape.

D

dilgreen Thu 3 Feb 2022 3:30PM

You are right about scale. Guardianship/custodian requirements should not be heavy in human time terms - much automation should be possible. Lexon.tech might be useful in this regard. But still, to be a viable way to earn a living, providers might need many customer orgs.

D

dilgreen Thu 3 Feb 2022 3:33PM

Thanks @Chris Croome (Webarchitects Co-operative). Oli at openweb is looking into providing both sysop and user admin (trusted third party) service. We'll see what he comes up with for now :)

BH

Bob Haugen Thu 3 Feb 2022 4:10PM

@dilgreen have you used Lexon for anything? If so, what? How did it go?

D

dilgreen Thu 3 Feb 2022 4:25PM

No, not personally. David Bovill is working with them (can't recall if you know him). Rates them. Do you know about the Wyoming stuff with Lexon?

Sent from ProtonMail mobile

BH

Bob Haugen Thu 3 Feb 2022 4:37PM

I've seen David's name in several contexts, but don't really know him. I don't know about the Wyoming stuff. Is this what you meant? https://meetlexon.com/blog/wyoming-set-to-write-digital-law

(I'm not very interested in DAOs but do have friends working on non-blockchain "smart contracts", which does interest me a little.)

D

dilgreen Thu 3 Feb 2022 4:40PM

That's the Wyoming thing, yes. Lexon is not DAO specific.
David Bovill has been doing interesting and insightful stuff for years.
Dil

Sent from ProtonMail mobile

D

dilgreen Fri 4 Feb 2022 10:28AM

@Bob Haugen David would be happy to talk about Lexon, if you want - or to your friends. He's on Telegram +44 7490 196 595 @fortyfoxes and email : david.bovill@gmail.com

I mentioned your name and interest (and the value flows / REA context)

Dil

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 4 Feb 2022 12:49PM

Thanks. I'll take another look at Lexon and see if I am interested enuf to send him an email. If I do, I will CC you.

R

RobertD Sun 20 Mar 2022 11:05PM

@Oli SB If you want to host your own apps and leverage content stored on Open Web Systems, can you do it via NextCloud? We’re working on an mutual aid/knowledge sharing app and would love to make it compatible with and supportive of Open Web Systems. We’re also looking at trying to perhaps apply some of Inrupt’s personal secure knowledge space concepts. They’ve told me they are interested in exploring external hosting but their Solid Server and Pod Spaces are only in Alpha form at this time. Would love to know your thoughts about both!

OS

Oli SB Tue 22 Mar 2022 1:37PM

Hi @RobertD 👋 - good question! I'm afraid the OWS setup is a managed hosted offer, so we aren't able to allow others to host their own apps at the moment, you would probably need to host your own for that.... but if there's a demand for hosting other apps it's certainly something we could look into. Your "mutual aid/knowledge sharing app" sounds intriguing though - can you tell us more about that... how it will work / what it will do?

R

RobertD Tue 22 Mar 2022 9:42PM

Thanks, @Oli SB - that’s what I had assumed for OWS itself. But I also thought that the content managed by OWS could be linked to via URL, and perhaps access programmatically via a secure API mechanism. I was just thinking we might be able to host our app in NextCloud, and then be able to have members link to their content in OWS. We hope to be able to demo the initial MVP of the app in a week or two, and would love to share the approach and get your thoughts.

OS

Oli SB Wed 23 Mar 2022 8:51AM

Ah, yeah - you could do that. Since you can share a file in your Nextcloud with anyone else, according to the permissions you set, you should be able to share it with a bot, API, or any other app... keep us posted on the MPV :)

OS

Oli SB Thu 16 Jun 2022 3:14PM

Today we launched Open Web Systems - Group Tools https://openweb.systems/group-tools/ for ethically-minded businesses and small groups that want to escape GAFAM and use only 100% renewable energy for their full online collaborative suite, including: email, office tools and chat.

If you know anyone that might be interested please share...

;)

YK

Yasuaki Kudo Fri 17 Jun 2022 10:40PM

Hello Oli!

I have been talking to quite a few friends regarding the cooperative IT infrastructure. Let's chat soon! If you use signal or telegram or whatever, I am +81 90 6523 2640

I started this git repository https://github.com/yugawara/digitalcommons/blob/main/README.md

and my idea is to put together all the links to what we are interested in and also put interviews and analysis as well. Coop IT journalism almost?

I finally started a digital worker cooperative (tng.coop) with partners and need the information regarding coop IT infrastructure for our own analysis as well!