Wed 30 Dec 2020 8:23PM

Candidates to become the Belgian Delegate for PPEU and PPI

CC Christophe Cop Public Seen by 32

Naar aanleiding van een eerdere miscommunicatie, stel ik voor dat we tot nader order iemand manderen om de Belgische Piraten te vertegenwoordigen op PPI en PPEU.
Vroeger heeft onder meer Koen dit gedaan, en monenteel wou Jelle deze functie opnemen.

De volgende stappen zijn dus:

0) Indien er mensen Geen afvaardiging willen hebben, kunnen we hier eerst over stemmen

1) Mensen die kandidaat zijn: laat het weten
2) Stemming van de kandidaat per meerderheid.

De verkozen persoon dient te raporteren over de bijgewoonde vergaderingen, bvb via Loomio

Daarnaast stel ik voor dat wanneer er een nieuwe kandidaat deze rol zou willen, een herverkiezing organiseert (bvb met bvb een 3 of 6 maanden wachttijd tussen herverkiezingen)


0) Do we want a delegate? If not: say so, so we can vote
1) People who want to be candidate: make yourself known
2) We vote by majority.

If later a new person wants to take this position: organise a new vote.

0) Est-ce qu'on ne veut pas une delegation? si non: on doit voter
1) Est tu Candidat? Laisse nous savoir.
2) on vote par majorite

Si on a des autres candidats plus tard, on peut organiser une nouvelle vote


Jan Van Opstal Wed 30 Dec 2020 9:28PM

Voor mij is Jelle prima.


Lander Meeusen Thu 31 Dec 2020 9:31AM

Ik ben voor een observerende en rapporterende delegatie. (Ter info: kan dat meer dan 1 persoon zijn?)
Voor Jelle als kandidaat.

Zulke 'aanstellingen' zou ik persoonlijk elk jaar vernieuwen, in plaats van te wachten tot iemand de aanstelling 'aanvecht'. Lijkt me minder conflictueus.


Ilja Sun 3 Jan 2021 2:37PM

I think I need more idea of what the exact position of a "delegate" is in the eyes of the PPI and PPEU. To be more concrete:

  • I have a problem with the idea of a representative in the sense that they are "mandated" to speak in name of PPBE. From how I understand it, this is how PPI and PPEU consider the delegates, which I consider a problem.

  • However, I do agree that it's good to have people to do/have international contacts with other pirates. If someone (or multiple people) can join in their own name "as a Belgian pirate" (instead of "as a representative of PPBE"), then I don't have problems with that. As I understand, this is possible by joining as an "observant member".

If we have someone who wants to take up this role of having international contacts, which can include joining PPI and PPEU meetings "as a Belgian pirate", then I don't think I even need a say in who that is exactly.

For me "doing international contacts" is as much a thing as "doing IT stuff" or "publishing articles" and not necessarily limited to one person. It does seem important to me that it is known that there are people who take up this role, and I think it's up to the people who fill in this role to define more exactly what it is they do and don't do, as long as things are transparant and open.

What tools to use to be transparent and open and where to potentialy publish reports and stuff, is more a discussion about tooling. The wiki is kind of our "knowledge database" (even if it's clumsy and not really structured), so I kinda expect at least a wiki page or something and reporting fits better there than loomio. Loomio on the other hand is more to get discussions/feedback/make decissions. But tooling is probably a whole other discussion, so maybe not relevant for the decision at hand.


Lander Meeusen Sun 3 Jan 2021 7:34PM

Maybe @Gregory Engels can shed some light on this? Can the PPBE send a delegate and/or observer to PPI/PPEU meetings? What are the rights of such a delegate / observer in a meeting?


Renaud Van Eeckhout Sun 3 Jan 2021 8:16PM

I'll react properly tomorrow to the whole topic, but just quickly already: if the role of a "ppbe delegate" is to inform ppbe about what ppi/ppeu do, then we don't need a delegate, we just need to watch the ppi/ppeu meetings when they happen (they are streamed live, and there is a public meeting report provided afterwards).


Renaud Van Eeckhout Mon 4 Jan 2021 9:28PM

So, the biggest issue that I see with both PPI and PPEU are that they require delegation. It's a very heavy choice, because it basically allows one person to have power over a whole organization. The structure is not built to encourage debate about motions that are presented at their GAs (some motions are even made DURING the GA, so it's impossible to discuss between Belgian Pirates which votes PPBE should take on these motions). From my experience as a viewer of several of these assemblies, it looks more like a club of people preserving the power they have (I'm not targeting individuals, it's the organization protecting itself actually). Just to accept this way of working is already a big burden to several of us.

Also, I think it was mentioned in a previous debate some months ago, but the sentence "we want to cooperate internationally therefore we should be active in PPI/PPEU" is wrong. I believe most of us agree on the first part of the sentence, but the link between that and the second part is less than obvious. Let's just look at the statutes of PPI :

II. Goals

(1) The goals of the association are:

a) to act according to the major interests and goals of its Members,

b) to raise awareness and widen the spread of the pirate movement, and

c) to support the pirate movement and strengthen its bonds internally and externally,

d) to promote and support Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms.

(2) To accomplish these objectives the association shall, among other things:

a) provide for and extend communication between the Members of the association,

b) assist in the foundation of new pirate parties,

c) organize and coordinate global campaigns and events,

d) act as mediator or arbitrator for any disputes between Members if requested to do so,

e) share information and coordinate research on the core pirate topics,

f) contact NGO's, administrations and international organizations, and

g) act as a contact centre for the pirate movement.

The point 2 is the most interesting, as it described the concrete tasks that PPI was supposed to do when it was created. Now ask yourselves (and share your findings) : which ones of these tasks did PPI actually do?
Also, ask yourselves : if you want international cooperation between Pirates, which I believe is a great idea, which concrete actions/tasks can you think about that require such a big organization (with its delegations, memberships, membership fees - also a topic we need to discuss..., court of arbitration, board, etc) ?

For PPI, there is individual membership available (link here), but it doesn't allow for voting or making motions during GAs, I think (it's unclear for the motions).

Also, PPI doesn't represent all the Pirates of the world. For example, PP-Sweden, PP-Iceland are among the parties that have left PPI years ago. I don't believe they stopped international cooperation though (to be confirmed).

So, if wanted to summarize : If you want to do international pirate cooperation, go for it. Contact other pirates, make common projects, do cool stuff, and if you want more Belgian Pirates, take the habit of sharing the info you have. If you want to do that through PPI, then I see big obstacles that could be removed but that's not worth it.

(I have more mixed feelings about PPEU, as it exists within already existing institutions which might require to pay attention to national parties when taking decisions)


Lander Meeusen Thu 14 Jan 2021 2:39PM

This was brought up again at a meeting with the Antwerp Pirates, yesterday. There's no consensus on a delegation of PPBE to PPI meetings, but if someone (or more people) want to take on the responsibility of observing meetings, following up on reports and activities and reporting back to PPBE through Loomio, e-mail, ... that seems ok. I think Jelle is interested in that responsability of "international pirate stuff-observer". Does anybody have an objection to this?

I personally find it a lot easier that someone relays the interesting stuff to me than having to go through everything myself.

How about PPEU, however? Is it possible for us to have a delegation there? Do we wish that? What are the criteria for us to decide to have a delegation? (For instance, passing on the agenda of the meetings as soon as it's communicated, before the meetings.)


Renaud Van Eeckhout Thu 14 Jan 2021 10:21PM

Just to be clear, you're asking if Jelle can watch the PPI meetings and then report to us what he saw? If yes, then he doesn't need anyone's permission*, meetings are public. No need for any title for that, he can just do it if he wants, it would be nice actually to have someone regularly reporting. I watch from time to time also, and some other pirates also do it out of curiosity.

Same goes for PPEU as far as I can tell, meetings are public so no need to ask a permission if the goal is to watch. About a PPBe delegation at PPEU, PPBe is "observer member" since mid-2019. Art. 8 of the PPEU Statutes explain the obligations & rights this implies, but it's a bit vague and I don't believe that they are much followed (for example I don't remember having seen other Pirate Parties "report every year to the Association on the party / organisation and policy developments"). For their council meetings (their General Assemblies), it seems Observer Members don't have a right to vote (I don't know about a right to make motions, it's unclear to me).

* when I say "no need for permission", it's because Jelle goes in his own name and doesn't act as delegate


Lander Meeusen Sat 16 Jan 2021 2:41PM

That is what I mean. So then Jelle (and anyone who wants to join him) can report back on meetings and activities of PPI and PPEU through the channels they choose. (Personnally, I recommend using Loomio, e-mail and our website.) There's no delegation to speak (or vote) on behalf of the PPBE.