Admin contributions for projects that break even or run at a loss
Sometimes Jeder members run projects/traning that either just cover expenses or that run at a loss. For projects, admin fees are calculated on profits after expenses are taken out. This means that for break even and loss projects no admin contribution is paid. Should a minimum project admin contribution fee be set? If so, how much should this be? Moving towards a proposal after dicussion.
[deactivated account] Mon 25 Mar 2019 5:16PM
Hi Jason-can you give us an example of this kind of project-I cannot see one that you have invoiced for?
[deactivated account] Mon 25 Mar 2019 5:23PM
I think that this has been inconsistent in the past and there are a few different scenarios.
1: I submit an application for funding and works out the costs and then add 15% onto the submission-this is very clear. 15% on total income.
2: I have a contract for work that provides for a daily rate for facilitation and also asks that any accommodation /meals expenses be included in the invoicing for reimbursement. In this case the admin fee is on the facilitation fees only. If I were charged 15% on the expenses, I would be 15% out of pocket.
3: A fee for service, budgetted project. Eg an AoH offering. What if we receive 10K in fees and the expenses are 9K? is admin on 10K or1K?
Separate to this, we can also claim any allowable expense from our class for general expeneses that may or may not be related to any specific project. For example, I claim phone, internet, travel, training fees etc. These are drawn from my class balance after admin contributions have been made.
Dee Brooks Sat 30 Mar 2019 10:40PM
My understanding has always been that I pay 15% to the backend on whatever amount I bring in to the org - 15% of the total invoice - that was consistent for years... the only change I ever heard about was the way you were doing yours, @kerry63 as per your example #2 above - I didn't realise we had all changed or agreed to this? Like @jasonemmins says it would be good to get clear about this...
Jason Emmins Mon 25 Mar 2019 10:41AM
I would see that people add a 15% admin fee to any funding proposal or project and this would cover the admin fee component without affecting any profit/loss.
[deactivated account] Mon 25 Mar 2019 5:14PM
I agree with this, and it is easy to factor this fee in when you are submitting a proposal or a grant. How does this work if it is not a grant/submission? Eg an AoH training (or any other fee for service project?)
Michaela Kennedy Tue 26 Mar 2019 9:10AM
I think it should be 15% of all income across the board. All invoicing, paying invoices for expenses or reimbursements impact the work of admin. We could run all our classes at 'no-profit' if we chose to. Where would admin be then. Every time there is new work be they through grants, contracts, invoicing, NDIS there is admin work involved. It would be nice to see admin make a bit of a profit or pay more for what many people do as unpaid work or something else that fits with our pillars and purpose. At least if there was a surplus we could have a discussion about that.
[deactivated account] Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:32AM
For some scenarios this is easy, for others it is more complex.eg How would this work for example in the recent Ballina AoH? It just broke even (some people opted even not to have their expenses reimbursed), no one was paid, no admin was charged-if it had been, who bears this loss? Many of the particpants were jeder members on subsidised fees.
Another scenario is when your contract determines the fees and reimbursement, so you cannot add 15%.
[deactivated account] Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:34AM
And running a class at break even is completely different to running a project at break even.
[deactivated account] Sat 30 Mar 2019 6:22PM
Hi Yvonne-because a class/bucket and a project are not the same thing. A project is a piece of work and a class is like a 'holding space' for your money. You draw down on it after contributions for admin come out.
Michelle Dunscombe Sun 31 Mar 2019 12:26AM
@kerry63 I agree there needs to be some clarity around the admin fee and believe that scenario 2 has already been discussed and agreed and a sales item exists for invoicing for reimbursement of costs from a client that doesn't occur the 15% admin fee. I agree we need to have a proposal regarding the admin fee for specific projects that considers as it is not always possible to add a 15% admin fee when applying for funding and for past events the admin fee may or may not have been factored in as per the Ballina example.
[deactivated account] Thu 4 Apr 2019 7:06AM
Hi Michelle, yes you are correct-we do not currently charge 15% on reimbursements in an invoice. I also can see that the membership doc say 15% on income.maybe we need to clarify this as a start. For me.personally, sometimes half an invoice is simply reimbursing me for my out of pocket expenses. If I had to give a 15% contribution as well it is then costing me 115%
Jason Emmins Wed 3 Apr 2019 11:00PM
I still think a 15% admin contribution for any income is the way forward (and still believed that this is what our membership documents have said). In the case of AoH Ballina for example, we could have factored this into the budget so it was clear from the start. If a project runs at a deficit, then this would be the responsibility of the individual class to cover (they run at a deficit for that project and would need funds in their class to cover this) or the project team discuss how to "split" the deficit. This is a risk that individuals (and a project team) need to consider when developing projects or pieces of work. In terms of organisational risk, it would only be evident if the individual or project team members did not have enough in their individual classes to cover the deficit and then we would request the deficit back via an agreement (loan/overpayment agreement).
Michaela Kennedy Sat 6 Apr 2019 11:35PM
I'm concerned the conversations over the 15% admin fee is charged to some work and not to others. I think we need to go back to looking at the work that is involved. When people add travel and accommodation to an invoice, who books that travel and accommodation, who does the payment of these costs, who does the work of the re-imbursment. If these actions impact work hours for the admin team, then I believe an admin fee needs to be charged. We have to make the work of the admin team sustainable and profitable. Looking forward to further discussion. Can we add this topic to an admin zoom call?
[deactivated account] Sun 7 Apr 2019 7:40PM
I think this covno is bigger than the people included in the admin calls. It is currently a discussion in the Dollars Jedi which more people can access. Should we call a separate discussion and invite in the people who are directly affected by this? I am keen to have @michelledunscombe included for example.
[deactivated account] Sun 7 Apr 2019 7:46PM
And to answer some of your questions @michaelakennedy, the individual makes any bookings for accomm/travel, payments are done by the individual and reimbursement is claimed via the reimbursement form that any member can use reagardless of whether or not they are invoicing for a piece of work. In terms of impact on admin hours-it is very minimal.
Dee Brooks Mon 8 Apr 2019 2:25AM
Maybe this is something for a face to face proposal at the next Gathering?
Jason Emmins Wed 10 Apr 2019 5:28AM
Face to face proposal at the gathering would be awesome- maybe a round or two of clarifying questions is needed. Seems very inconsistent how the 15% is applied.
To answer some of the questions from @kerry63, there was some work I did a few years ago with Interchange Shoalhaven and it included accommodation/travel costs- i just put an additional 15% on top of the whole amount (I charged $150/night accommodation charge). Hope this makes sense. You could also have a look at some invoices that were generated for Illawarra Aboriginal Corporation as this was the same.
[deactivated account] Thu 11 Apr 2019 1:56AM
Cool-I wont be at the gathering, and am hoping to have a convo with Michelle and Sara around how this has been worked out to date. We could get something down on paper that might assist with any clarifying questions.
Michelle Dunscombe Thu 25 Apr 2019 12:42PM
I'm happy to zoom in to join a conversation at the gathering.
Jason Emmins · Mon 25 Mar 2019 10:40AM
My understanding is that the 15% administration fee is based on income and not profit- I believe this is clearly documented in all our membership documents (i.e. 15% administration from all income). If there are cases where the admin fee has been calculated on profits rather than income, this is not consistent and I would like to it reviewed as I have personally paid admin fee's for projects based on income and not profits.