Synergy between Sociocracy and the VSM

Hi @simoncarter I'm glad you shared too. I recognise the language of the self-employed who've long driven-through business decisions 'on their own' and, like you, I've been seduced by the gorgeous promises of the co-op movement (!?). Our lone ways are gone and new terms, such as sociocracy and a reformed VSM, seem to invade our DNA that wants to fast-track ahead. I do think your's and my tasks Simon are to find our 'place' in a movement that's keen to make moves too (finds it hard). How we do that without us trying to shoehorn in our old patterns...well, I'm working on it too. I have good mentors at Co-operatives UK who remind me I need them. The movement's task, if it wants to move at all, has to learn where it switches people off which is why @philcoulth @marksimmonds responses to you here, Simon, will always be genuine enquiries. I hope you can hear the co-operative heart which, when bold enough to trial concepts, will still maintain that all responses matter as much as theirs' (and even offer businesses a free systems-look from a different perspective too!) Hope someone takes Phil up. Also @philcoulth if you think your discussion may have 'easier' legs as a panel webinar discussion then email me on irena.pistun@uk.coop. Phew..if what you've all started is a new thread on how co-op workers and former lone-rangers coalesse I'm all for that (can't spell it). Or why Amazon won't take on Suma ...great chats to have. I too hope @bobcan stays in btw! :-)

Lots of good practical stuff here @simoncarter
https://www.loomio.org/g/S2GO31ij/platform-6-community
including
https://hackmd.io/s/Skh_dXNbE#

(nearly gone!)

VSM and Sociocracy is directly relevant to several of the worker co-operatives I'm working with at the moment and speaks particularly to the potential for distributed governance of platform co-operatives. I'm currently assembling my thoughts on the current implementation of Sociocracy in UK co-ops (with the help of some of the discussion above) to feed into the UK Co-operative Governance Expert Reference Panel, who are drawn from the whole co-op movement and where I'm the only person who knows anything about the growth of these models amongst co-operatives. I'll likely share this in the Platform 6 Loomio group - watch this space. I'm particularly interested in how/if "traditional" Sociocratic models can map onto the underlying legal forms of UK co-ops and particularly where the General Meeting sits in the system. I'd encourage anyone in this thread who finds this conversation irrelevant to them to mute the thread using the drop down menu at the top right of the thread.

Hi @simoncarter , I have been thinking about what you wrote:
"As a student, maybe an interesting topic for research might be 'do coops ever fail because they agonise about stuff that puts them at a considerable disadvantage to for-profit enterprises with a tyrant in charge?. "

On reflection, what is it that makes worker coops so different from main stream organisations? Would you agree it is that desire for freedom? That need for ownership, so what's yours, after all your effort, cant be stripped from you following some differences of opinion with the boss? How many of us are living on a shoe string because of our determination to be able to say “NO”! and live to fight another day? Are main stream organizations in reality, no more than as in Watership Down a "warren of snares” and if so, where do we find “Cowslip"?

I have come to a point in rereading "The Heart of Enterprise " where I interpret the description offered by Stafford Beer (of that "mysterious" system 5 figure, a door with no label), as a CEO type figure. In support for my reasoning, from "The Heart of Enterprise " Stafford Beer points out the capability of humans in recognising patterns and continuous changes in patterns, as well as that sense of calm, whilst being alert to alarm signals, brought about by instability. The hurdle, I see no way to overcome, is that incipient instability within the metasystem. Instability where continuous monitoring is beyond any committee's capability. Simon’s view of the “tyrant in charge” could mean a conventional business model but even in the most Machiavellian of men they are wise and so guided enough to temper short term tyranny with a gentle hand to retain their power. So I cannot assume “Cowslip” hides exclusively within their ranks. I hope others will provide insights to show where my thinking is wrong.

On the bright side, the CEO does not have to be appointed by the Board of Directors and accountable only to shareholders. It could mean that the CEO is elected by members and comes up for re-election. Such a principled CEO type figure could be found for example in a coop with intrinsic values and principles.

But what of this 6th Cooperative Principal, isn’t that all about cohesion? Surely that is part of that mysterious CEO's role? It is here that I find myself stumbling with that word “APEX” organisation. Is this a soft way of saying “Hierarchy” and hasn’t the sciences of organisation at least moved us along to different approaches? In the struggle for the Coop movement, to find greater cohesion, shouldn’t there be many coop funded papers available looking at the systems models back in their hayday at least? Can any one point me to a paper that rejects the VSM on the ground that it lacks the capability to deliver cohesion please? If not, why not? Surely under the 6th coop principle the movement would not leave references to the VSM or its development unsupported? Under the 6th principle, is it enough to advocate for complexity alone, which the Laws of variety adequately deals with within the VSM?

The measure of all managers ( which I suggest to all freedom protecting warriors, or worker coop members, we must become ), is in understanding our organizational models, the need for cohesion and those human qualities discussed above. Most importantly Stafford Beer said the manager "must know himself”.

So in looking for synergy between the VSM and Sociocracy, can someone tell me please how, the continuous detection of alerting signals for incipient instability, is managed within the "General " or "Mission" circle?

I apologise for the length of this post @simoncarter I hope other will contribute with insightful comment.

I think you ask the wrong question Philip. I would argue that it's not what makes worker coops different that matters so much as what makes them the same. Why is that never discussed?.

In responding to @simoncarter point and whilst hoping for further input from others, I am seeking guidance by reading more carefully the coop principles and governance. Principle 5 is interesting where it states : "Co-operatives provide education and training for their members, elected representatives, managers and employees” . Now surely Solid Fund is a coop and as a member is it unreasonable to expect help in formulating ideas which may help others as well as myself? I raised at least 10 questions in my last post, which Simon has responded with another.
It is common practice for elites to shun engagement, especially where they hold power. Surely according to Principle 2 we should be challenging elitist practices where ever they occur, especially where power is held by senior management?
I am not looking for hand outs from SolidFund or arguments for arguments sake. There are flaws in reasoning which need to be challenged. I might not be the brightest button in the world and some of my reasoning may well be flawed, but I at least have the courage to flag it up and simple ask, "why is this so". The questions deserve an answer from true cooperators.

Is there a facility on Loomio for private conversations?. If so I can't see it. Give me a direct call if you wish Philip or email me 01684 296555 simon@just.coop

I do think I have something to say as I spent thirty years self-employed before discovering the coop model. It's great on many levels, but I have reached one over-arching elephant in the room conclusion. Coops are capitalist enterprises run by people very often trying to escape capitalism. The net result is huge amounts of cognitive dissonance. The Six Principles seem more like a wish list than something that is widely implemented. That's because there is no capitalist return on investment. Sadly, help is far more forthcoming from those who smell a potential pound of flesh.

Thanks for opening up a little more @simoncarter I cannot disagree with your comments and thanks for your contact details. I am going to continue with the thread as long as the groups patience allows and try not to be seen as going into any one silo. I said from the start my main interest was CC and how we some how come together to best organise. I am happy to report that Coop Alliance Principles 1 to 3 do not throw up any road blocks from a VSM perspective. The overriding concern from reading so far, which is along the lines you mentioned Simon, was "how am I to compete in a market of thieves wearing a hair vest and mancles"! Stafford Beer warns against constraint, where it impedes variety matches.
Perhaps the coop movement can help worker coop start ups more by lending their collective wisdom to show how the hurdles we have set our selves, ( well intention as the principles are) help compete in the reality of trading. That does not mean I believe the principles to be wrong but they should be insightful in how best to apply them and where.
One insight from working with Permaculture people working cooperatively, is how that sense of community and sharing using their ( more simple and practical principles) ethos, leads to openness and support, expressed in so many wonderful ways. Such as meals, friendship, knowledge and experience of horticulture all shared. Yet that exchange of caring is bounded by a set of beliefs many outside of that community have yet to discover.
The VSM brings to this search for a better way forward, explicitly the power of variety and recursion, otherwise hidden. These concepts seem to provide major insights into how organisations can change. Change which those stuck in their silo's of autopoiesis must some how engage or explain why they cannot.

Given you comment a bit more thought @simoncarter :
"Coops are capitalist enterprises run by people very often trying to escape capitalism. The net result is huge amounts of cognitive dissonance"
On reading, I could not find anything in the Coop values and principles that supports your argument. Surely what you statement relates to is the nature of certain coops who find the coop alliance values and principles difficult to implement?
As for " escaping Capitalism " for me at least this is about Freedom and choosing a path. No one is ever free but I can choose with what constraints I am content or improve my sense of freedom. This is not brought about by some momentry revelation but by searching on a journey of choice. Discovering there is a psychological cage in the first place and that the levers for freedom are within every ones reach is part of that journey.
Perhaps Principle 7 offers some clue of where coops struggling with the principles might flourish. From the VSM, variety matching of the operational units, to the environment ( in this case the local community ), suggests that the best match would be found where the communities interests are best served and not the operational units alone.. So that sharing, support, giving and not expecting gifts in return could be a good place to start. Right now with CC there is a massive opportunity to engage with community and especially young people, lost as to what to do and which path to take. The synergy between Permaculture, Transition, VSM, Sociocracy and Coop principles might meet those needs?
Hope this helps.

With my current understanding of the VSM ( still much to learn) I have carefully read through the ICA Guidance notes on "Values and Principles" and the "Simply Governance" document below:

https://plunkett.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Simply_Governance.pdf

From all of 232 pages, the only page which caused real anxiety was Governance page 80. So surely 1 out of 232 isn't bad?

I have attached a Word Doc outlining my concerns with the governance and ask for your help in clarifying how to interpret the guidance given.