Responses to the religious affiliation seem to have been changing relatively fast over the past few census, with just under 30% saying they had 'no religion' in 2001 rising to just over 40% in 2013. Will this trend continue, or will it plateau? Or, as you say above Guy, will new religions such as Jedi emerge? How important is it to us as a society to monitor these trends?

Currently statistics are recorded for satanists, wicans, Rastafarian etc. Also more "recent religions" like "scientology" and "destiny church" have been recorded. "Jedi" has been answered "legibly" by the NZ population since 1991 (if not before). Unofficial numbers have been released on Jedi, but never officially. I have paid for this data in the past. The NZ based Jedi church www.jedichurch.org has a worldwide following of 9000+ members. The NZ Jedi Society is a registered society, seeking to raise funds for a temple. The purpose of Statistics NZ collecting data is to help different religions with the statistics they need to help determine where new churches should be built, or how to target their education. It is not the role of Statistics NZ to determine the validity of a religion, otherwise we would have arguments between Muslims, Jews and Christians, (And they all believe in the same God.... ), let alone other religions... I believe NZ statistics need to simple count the Jedi answer, and treat that answer with the same respect they do for Satanists, Rastafarians and Wicans...

Here is the purchased Jedi data for 2006... we should not have to pay for that data. http://www.jedichurch.org/uploads/4448/files/NZStats2006.pdf

I'd say its as essential as any other stat collection. Perhaps we would find it's time to remove the tax-free status of religious organisations since their membership was so low and secular affiliations made up the majority, either that or extend it to secular organisations, which would severely shrink the tax base.

Taking stock of the numbers could really shape the political landscape.

In the 2006 census, the following religious data was counted with respect to the people who answered those questions...

Satanism 1,167

Rastafarianism 1,383

Zen Buddhist 78

Wiccan 2,082

Druid 192

Yoga 297

Is Yoga really a religion? I don't know, but it doesn't matter. NZ Statistics should count any answer that is legible. And if 20000+ people answer a very legible answer, then we can assume it is outside a margin of error... and if it happens in the last 5 census, being 1991,1996,2001,2006,2013, then i think we can discount it being a one off anomaly...

Phil, I see a personal bias in your comment "will new religions such as Jedi emerge? How important is it to us as a society to monitor these trends?". 24 years after 1991 census, it is highly important to accept the emergence with the same speed as destiny church, and to monitor the ongoing trend. I know the data is important both to those who seek that data for direct usage for their religion, and also to educational institutions who monitor societal changes. You will be aware that Jedi data has been requested formally by university on a regular basis. With your use of the word "importance", is it the scope of statistics NZ to judge the "importance of religions"? Surely importance is based on demand for the information? Or in what meaning do you use the word importance? Are you aware of anyone who is interested in collating the number of Druids in our society? Are you aware of any thesis published that needed to know how many druids there are in NZ?

You're right @reubenjackson , the importance of statistics tends to flow from the use that is made of them. Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that I was presenting a point of view, I posed those questions to stimulate discussion because this forum exists to reflect the range of views across the community. It's great to see people engaged!

Many people put 'Jedi' as their religion as a joke, rather than because Jediism is a meaningful part of their lives (as religion is for many people). Including 'Jedi' as a separate option would likely increase the number of people selecting it. Because this is largely a social trend rather than a legitimate religious belief (although adherents exist, they are a minority of respondents), the data would be more a reflection of people's sense of humour instead of a representation of actual beliefs and associations.

Hi Phil, in the intro, Statistics NZ have communicated their default position is to make no changes to the religious affiliation question. Please could you give some clarification as to what will happen following this forum? How will the feedback in this forum impact on the Stats NZ default position? e.g. with regards to previously "outside of scope" classifications, and the inquiry regarding giving multiple answers to the question. I heard recently that multiple answers were already possible for religion. How are multiple answers to religious affiliation currently dealt with in previous census?

Stefan, i don't believe anyone is asking it to be one of the top 9 religions listed, just merely counted when written into the "other" box... It is perhaps unhelpful to make judgments regarding the seriousness of other peoples religions, and might only inflame debate in this thread.

I agree with what Reuben said. I consider Christianity and all the monotheistic religions a joke. I don't think my view of their farcicality should impinge upon statistic collection though.

In England, Jedi is counted in general statistics. http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/2011-census/key-statistics-for-local-authorities-in-england-and-wales/sty-what-is-your-religion.html

I am an atheist - has that been an option to tick on previous forms? I just can't recall.

I don't care if religious affiliation stays as an option, but would like to see the 'object to answering' stay...

If you list every Religion it would make the form 30 pages longer than previous years. I think if you have the top 10 answers based on the previous Census and a space between for individual branches of said Religion (eg, tick Christian and write Baptist under) and the 11th option being Other for people to put less known (or made up for comedic reasons) religions.

@philipwelshman 'atheist' has not been a tick option on past census forms but 'other religion' with a text box has been an option. You can find the 2013 census forms here: http://www.stats.govt.nz/Census/2013-census/info-about-the-census/forms-guidenotes.aspx

@philipwelshman - i thought all Welsh men were very religious? :) (just kidding)

@loganwitchall - not sure if you are aiming at Jedi when you say "made up for comedic reasons", but I assure you that Jedi is taken seriously by those who are...
...these are not the arguments you are looking for...

@guymarriage - Not at all! I just know of people that have put things in for comedy reason in the past cesus. I respect all religions. However your last sentence did make me laugh, in the reference sense.

@reubenjackson asked about the role of this forum and the process for considering change to census.
A formal submissions process on census content will open on May 18 and run until June 30 this year. This formal submissions process will be important for anyone wanting to change the way census measures religious affiliation, just as this forum is important to help us understand the range of views across the community.
Broadly, census will need to balance the need to remain relevant against its' ability to track social changes over time.
Information on the census submissions process is available at
http://www.stats.govt.nz/Census/2018-census.aspx#formal default

I see the NZ Herald has published an interactive map showing the relationship between religious belief and neighbourhood affluence as measured by the NZ Deprivation index.
The Herald says Auckland is becoming more religious while Wellington is the least, with 5 out of every 10 people in Wellington saying they had no religion.
View the interactive map at
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11447270

Tena koutou, my name is Richard Egan, work at Otago Uni (though my views are my own), and am interested in spirituality in healthcare/society (see http://spiritualityandwellbeing.co.nz/ for broader discussion paper). Davie suggested some time ago we live in a society that believes without belonging (ie. we believe in something without religious affiliation). I understand the ‘nones’ are the fastest growing group in the last census. What does this mean? Does it mean people have no beliefs or that the census isn’t sensitive enough to pick them up? (probably latter). So I hope we not only retain the religious question, but ask more questions. Exact figures vary, as we don’t have good population based stats on it, but probably only 10-20% of NZers to church, synagogue or mosque regularly. Yet from some points of view everyone has a spiritual framework (call it existential framework if you really dislike the ‘s’ word). So could we ask about attendance? Could we ask about beliefs and values, and a sense of meaning and purpose?

Good morning Richard. I am Robert Didham, a topic expert, and also work with this data extensively. Thank you for your thoughts on attendance etc. The question asks for religious affiliation and intends to capture something different from attendance. Information on attendance at temples, mosques, churches etc and strength of affiliation are better suited to being asked in specialised surveys because they give the opportunity to gather more extensive and nuanced information. For some religions, formalised places of worship are either not a common feature or attendance is only associated with formal life-stage events or there are no local facilities. These factors would have an influence on attendance figures. The nones are those people who have indicated on the form that they have no religious affiliation. It is not quite correct to say that the nones are the fastest growing group and it is not certain, if the post-secularist literature is correct, that this category will continue to grow markedly. The group is growing a little faster than the population as a whole but [at plus 26%] not as fast as many religious affiliations. For example Sikhism more than doubled between 2006 and 2013. Other groups of religions that also grew faster included Hinduism, Islam, and, among some of the Christian-based religions, several of the evangelical and orthodox affiliations.

Thanks Robert for you response. I'm mostly a qualitative researcher, so happy to accept all you say. I guess my fundamental question is, given the growth of the 'I'm spiritual but not religious' groups in society, is there a way at a national/census level, to capture some information about this area?

I'd really like some sort of likert scale on how 'committed' someone is to their affiliated group. Perhaps a 1-5 scale from very nominal to very committed. This scale could have a mix of attendance, personal practice etc. More than affiliation, I think practice/commitment would provide a more useful indication of the 'state of religion' in NZ, and how this relates to socio economic status, unpaid work and volunteering

@jamesking you may be interested in the questions asked in Te Kupenga the survey of Māori wellbeing which was attached to census 2013. Te Kupenga asked Māori:
How important is spirituality in your life?
o 11 very important
o 12 quite important
o 13 somewhat important
o 14 a little important
o 15 not at all important
and
How important is religion in your life?
o 11 very important
o 12 quite important
o 13 somewhat important
o 14 a little important
o 15 not at all important
and
How often do you attend religious worship services?
o 11 at least once a week
o 12 at least once a fortnight
o 13 at least once a month
o 14 several times a year
o 15 at least once a year
o 16 less than once a year
o 17 never

More information on Te Kupenga is available at :
http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/people_and_communities/maori/te-kupenga.aspx

Kia ora koutou, as they say 'what's good for Maori is good for the rest of us'. Lets ask those questions for all populations! Also, I couldn't find the results of these questions on the website suggested - are they easily accessed?

There are some very interesting and valid points in this discussion. It's disappointing however that contributions like those from Mr Coyle are snide and snarky. We all get that you have a problem with monotheism, but pull yourself together, man. You're an adult.

@richardegan you can find results for the Te Kupenga spirituality and religion questions on pages 3-4 of the 1st Release which can be found at
http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/people_and_communities/maori/TeKupenga_HOTP13.aspx

please put a box for jedi in the religious question. It rates higher than many other religions.

I've created a proposal stating 'Information on religious affiliation is needed at a neighbourhood level'

You can find it, and vote, at the top right of this page.
If you vote 'agree' then you are agreeing that religious affiliation needs to be collected at neighbourhood level, if you vote 'disagree' then you are not agreeing that religious affiliation needs to be collected at neighbourhood level.
If religious affiliation was collected in a sample survey rather than in census, we might get more information on people's connection to religion, and the link between religious affiliation and wellbeing more generally such as was done in Te Kupenga mentioned above - however we wouldn't be able to output below regional or at best major TA levels. Collecting religious affiliation in census allows us to output at neighbourhood level.

Proposals are being used to try and sum up the discussion and get a quick snapshot on what people’s views on this issue currently are.
Proposals are a way of not only checking where everyone is at with their thinking but drawing more people into the discussion.
You can find a guide of how to use proposals here
( https://www.loomio.org/help#proposals ).
Proposals are not being used in the 2018 Census engagement discussion as a final decision making tool.
The proposal closes on Friday June 5th at 8pm.
However the discussion stays open until the 10th of June.

Hello contributors and facilitators, a very interesting thread! Just want to suggest one more reason for continuing to collect as much information in this field [as can be reasonably asked in Census without overburdening responders] is that NZ continues to be a peaceful nation where many beliefs [also non-believers and doubters] co-exist without overt violence.
This is a huge intangible asset we should treasure.
NZ may be a model society in this respect.
Even Tourism NZ might benefit from this. Visiting a tolerant society may be a valuable experience for youth groups from countries riven by sectarian violence.
I fully agree with Jonathan Godfrey's post regarding self-description of Belief and sub-set if applicable.
I'd prefer not to prefix it "Religious" because many reject that term.
Finally, Wiccans frequently practice alone: no church or temple, no priests, no attendance or tithe, no central authority. But devout in their spiritual practice.
Like the Society of Friends, [formerly Quakers] who maintain silence, spiritual beliefs are not openly stated, but they are still there. And hugely influential.
Overall, this societal knowledge is too valuable to lose.

Commitment is not the same as attendance. Many people attend a particular group or gathering for social reasons or because they get a ride there or its more accessible. Their affiliation to a particular faith may be different. My grandmother was an elder in the Presbyterian church through family custom, attended a Salvation Army group for the singing, and privately identified as an atheist (on her low days) or as an agnostic (when she felt more positively).

Similarly, I attend three faith groups that have buildings but I affiliate to another group with smaller numbers and no fixed space. If I knew of a local neighbourhood with more connections I may seek out another group. Mockery by others can make it more difficult to seek a new spiritual home.

Hi Scarlett, agree your point: " Local authorities may be more sympathetic to requests for respectful use of public facilities if they understood local value placed on them by particular groups. For example use of a small reserve in Wellington by a pagan group for gatherings."
Agreed, and in the NZ Herald recently, referring to the use of public land by a group of Maori, the Auckland City Council were OK about them using it for a traditional Matariki Dawn ceremony.
No problem at all.
But I'm wondering if, say, a Wiccan group asked if they could use public land at a local park for a Dawn ceremony - would they be granted the same permission?
Maybe pre-Christian Maori traditional belief is more understood and accepted than pre-Christian European traditional belief?
I don't intend to raise contentious issues, only to illustrate how difficult it is in a multi-faith community to put people and their belief[s] into boxes with labels.
Freedom of belief is one of our core values.
I could really believe in that.

Sorry, just one more question. Does the fact that fewer individuals are indicating belief in, or attendance at, an established religious entity NECESSARILY mean that we are becoming a SECULAR society?
If Census offers only mainstream church or religious entities, people who believe in something else entirely won't answer, but that doesn't mean they are non-believers. or without a belief system.
It means that Census is asking questions the wrong way, and getting incomplete answers back.
My informal observation is that while many remain cynical about all the established religions, they do believe in value systems. These have great utility.

Surely there's more to being secular than merely being godless. If being secular means that NZ is less likely to fall into sectarian violence and civil war, maybe being secular is more valuable than adhering to a religion?

@franceshorton you may be interested that in Te Kupenga two thirds (66%) of Maori said spirituality was important in their lives, while just under half (45%) said religion was important.

Thank you Phil. Interesting and valuable. It would be regrettable if future Census readers were unable to track changes such as belief in "spirituality" or "religion" over time and over generations.
I hope Census continues to enquire about - not just "Religious Affiliation" which is a more narrow enquiry, but "Belief or Spiritual practice" which is more inclusive and wider. Thank you.

Interesting debate. I agree the Te Kupenga questions applied to the whole population would be most useful.

I recall analysis from the Church Life Survey a few years back that showed that denomination is far less meaningful than it used to be. People to use descriptors such as 'evangelical', 'reformed', 'petecostal', and even 'catholic' right across denominations, as this marked their identity more than their denomination.

Also, I think having more probing questions into the 'other' category would be useful. Pew research in the USA shows that very few are atheists, with most being agnostic, or believe in 'God' in their own way.

There’s been some great discussion in this thread so far! I just want to encourage anyone who wishes to, please take advantage of our formal submission process before our engagement and consultation closes. All the discussions on loomio will be formally assessed but sending in a formal submission adds weight to your perspective on what census needs to do, or change, to meet information needs in this area.