I don't see any benefit from leaving Google Groups. I'm using it without a Google account, there's no privacy problem with public mailing lists anyway. I suggest we focus on Diaspora's issues instead of creating new problems.

My current understanding is, Google has become point of various types of surveillance hotspot in various areas/services. So my opinion/suggestion is to avoid Google, so that users, contributors can post with free mind. And i think Free mind develops better things and do better discussion. -- Bry8Star (Bright Star).

so, this is going into the direction of an ideological boycott rather than being out of necessity or convenience (or other actual or perceived benefits)...

As said before, if someone feels we should dump the Google mailing lists (for ideological reasons, no functionality is gained) - please make a proposal and we will vote :)

Personally I think we have more important things to do. And I also think the Google lists are the best for us functionally. No ones privacy is at stake since we need public lists.

Just catching up on the discussion because I don't log in regularly to Loomio and only just received an alert about this discussion. I have read previous comments.

A couple of silly questions first: what is this list for? I joined long time ago the mailman list that Yosem set up but later unsubscribed. (I'm not a member of the Google Group). Second silly question: would it not be possible to use Diaspora itself e.g. a specific tag or Loomio? I just feel like we all have enough accounts, logins, etc.

In any case, I tend to think that though it would be preferable not to use Google, it seems to me not the best way to spend energy and resources. I have to admit though that I don't know how easy or difficult is to set up something new.

@Roger a mailman list can be set in less than an hour.

Flaburgan, you probably should count the hours maintaining it - never mind upgrading it for security holes etc.. Running your own software is never "just one hour".

Plus if we had our own we need to make sure the server is some common D* server - hosting the lists on some users personal server is definitely not ok imho

If managing it ourselves is a concern, I suggest we use resources managed by other collectives like Rise Up https://help.riseup.net/en/lists (loom.io is another example, where we are using a service hosted by another collective, where we have a better chance of influencing and even volunteering if required).

@Christophe Governance is an important issue for any community and that includes how we manage our resources. Also for a community like ours privacy is not the only factor. Software Freedom is an important factor and this has been considered in most of the decisions about the tools we use to manage our community (github is another discussion). So if you want me to state the problem we are trying to address, I would say "we are depending on a non-free software to run our mailing list."

Praveen you are forgetting that not everybody who participates in Diaspora* has a problem with using non-free software - that assumption can not be made automatically just because Diaspora* itself is open source.

Let's keep politics and ideology out of this and concentrate on making great software.

Jason, I don't agree. It is the ideology and politics that drives many of us to contribute. So we cannot keep ideology and politics aside. What else is the motivation to give our time and effort? If we are getting paid for our work, we may tell money is a motivation. At least for me the ideology and politics is what motivate me to contribute. And for people who are not driven by ideology, if we can provide the same service with a free software replacement, would they object?

I agree with Jason when he says that we have more important things to do. But I know too that our main goal right now is to reach more developers. A lot of persons who are interested by Diaspora are privacy aware, and I really think we are loosing people using a Google Service. I really hesitated before subscribe to the mailing because of Google.

If we want to reach the people who is afraid of Google, two solutions : we run our own mailing list, or we use other services.

Finally, maybe Diaspora + Loomio + Githug is enough, what do you think ? We are not using a lot the mailing list after all...

Praveen, different people are motivated by different things. For me putting time in to Diaspora* is not ideological (about free software) - I just want to participate in some kick ass cool open source social networking software. You should not automatically assume open source = free software movement.

The trouble with ideologies is that they always harm the normal people when taken to extremes. I personally don't really identify myself with the free software movement because sometimes it's a bit extreme and forgets usability ;)

But hey, this is why we have voting :)

If you like you could use the forum I've set up:
http://fora.org.uk/diaspora

I run the site and am happy to add others as moderators, and add functionality if needed. Its ad-free and running SMF. If people like emails they can use 'notify' function.

Also personally I find the google groups ui annoying to use

Hi Florian, and thanks for your reply. I should have made clear that I was talking about the diaspora-discuss mailing list, and not the diaspora-dev mailing list. I wasn't saying that there should not be any mailing lists used for discussion around Diaspora, and I realise that among software developers, mailing lists are popular, so it's right that a mailing list is used for discussion of development.

I remember the issue of using mailing lists (and Google groups in particular) versus a forum was discussed, and 'We1' said 'we don't want one', while 'We2' said 'we want one'. There was no clear majority at the time, but the founders decided to use Google groups, partly for a legal reason, because they were setting up a foundation, and this required that they control any discussion group which was used, and they couldn't be bothered to set up their own. (Sarah Mei explained this to me on one of her blog posts, but I can't now find it.)

I think for general discussion and help (recent posts to diaspora-discuss have almost all been requests for help from someone about a particular issue), a forum is better. For one thing, it can be divided up into sections for 'welcome', bug reports, help with setting up pods, and so on. This is more efficient than one mailing list in which any time anyone posts any comment about any area of Diaspora, everyone on the mailing list gets notification of this, even if they have no involvement in that area.

Discussion about 'live' development issues can remain on a mailing list if the devs prefer that (which, it seems clear, they do). The diaspora-discuss list can remain too, as long as it's not necessary for community members to subscribe to it in order to keep in touch with what is going on, because a significant number of people have reservations about using Google's services. (And it does strike me as odd that a FOSS project would use Google, which is kind of anti-freedom. But I realise we all have our individual perspectives.)

There are still the mailman mailing lists (diaspora-grassroots and diaspora-privacy) hosted by Stamford University, which could be used as alternatives.

I do think that wherever possible, methods of discussing Diaspora should be hosted on or by Diaspora, rather than using third-party fora. Sometimes of course, this is not possible, as with Loomio, which is specialised software which provides facilities not provided by free 'out-of-the-box' things such as forum or mailing list software.

As to a wish to avoid Google's services being an 'ideological boycott rather than being out of necessity or convenience (or other actual or perceived benefits)', I would say that it is not ideological in my case, it's about the necessity to avoid giving away personal data about me to companies which make their money by using those data for commercial gain, and the convenience of not having my data used by such companies, and the perceived benefits of remaining free from that sort of intrusion into my life. I realise Google already know far more about me than I'm happy with, but saying that I might as well keep using them is a bit like saying 'this person has stolen all my earning up til now, so I might as well give them all my future earnings'. So yes, ideological up to a point, but only as far as it impacts on my pragmatically. I came to Diaspora to get away from such intrusion and selling of my data, and I don't like the fact that I'm expected to allow this intrusion and selling to continue in order to help develop the project.

And using Google does mean a new login, if like me you feel the need to set up a one-time email address in order to subscribe.

OK, lots of points. The main ones are:
- I think it would be good to have a forum, hosted by Diaspora (for instance, on the diaspora-project.org site) either in addition to or as a replacement of the diaspora-discuss mailing list. I do think a forum has benefits which a mailing list doesn't, and as things get busier (now that we've got proper stable versions, hopefully more people will be attracted to join Diaspora and more people will want to set up pods) this would be a helpful thing to have for specific help and general discussion.
- It would be preferential, I think, for a project of the size and nature of Diaspora to host discussion fora itself rather than using third-party fora such as Google groups. Particularly as the project is founded on the principle of privacy and security of user data, it seems a bit upside-down to then use a forum hosted by Google, which is founded on the principle of harvesting and 'monetising' user data.

Sorry that was so long. There's a tl;dr thing at the end.

Goob, Google Groups does NOT need a Google account. I tested it - read some posts down :)

Jason, you're still giving Google information by subscribing to Google groups even if you don't use a Google account. Eg, they now know one of your email addresses (unless you create a one-time address) and can link that address to anything you post to the group.

Goob, well it's not like Google will not index the public list contents anyway ;) And that is good, because it makes sure people using search can find discussion on Diaspora*.

Anyway, personal preference, let's see how the majority decides..

Indeed, but I have no problem with that - I could call myself anything I liked, and they would only be able to index that along with my comments - not any identifiable data such as an email address, IP address from which I posted the comments, and so on, which they can do if I'm using one of their mailing lists.

Wouldn't let me add a comment to my vote. Here's my comment:

I'd prefer us not to use Google, or 3rd-party fora in general, wherever possible.

My vote is for:
1. hosting our own discussions where possible
2. where we can't host our own discussions, using FOSS projects where possible (eg Loomio)

But not if these preferences are going to be at the cost of development. Devlopment of the software, documentation and community must be first priority.

Goob whatever way or list you send emails to the same info can be traced - by me or Google. This decision by people who fail to understand this made out of fear, not knowledge.

As Goob suggests I think it would be a brilliant idea for the Diaspora project site to have a general purpose forum. I set up the forum I've linked to because I thought that a forum was something that was missing from the D community after the demise of diasporaforum.org. Whichever site its part of I think a forum is by far the best format for a lot of the kind of posts that have been going on diaspora-discuss. Joe public understand how to use forums, not so much google groups and other mailing lists.

Does anyone know who was running diasporaforum.org? Maybe it would be an idea to try and get use of the domain.

It was Ryan Kohles, Robin. I've tried contacting him a couple of times, but to no avail.

Jason, sorry, was getting muddled with mailing lists and fora - you're right, another reason why I don't like mailing lists.

(please do not take take my simple opinion/suggestion seriously, as i obviously don't understand many areas with enough depth) ... a mailing list should exist under Diaspora's own domain, or, a 3rd party who can be trusted, who honors & respects users Privacy/Comments/Speech, it should not be hosted somewhere, where unwanted person/entity can jump on a posting for censoring/deleting (or doing unethical queries on) it. Control should remain under mailing-list maintainer / diaspora.

I have seen posting got deleted (and partially edited) because poster showing facts on Google (& other company) doing this/that unethically (with News url links), and also showed such act can be overcome/bypass/circumvent, and what alternatives are there, etc ... but there are too many google type of entity lovers, they will not like definitely and will take unethical steps, or will accept reduced services/benefits.

If an user/group of users, receiving a benefit/service from someone-else/another-group/another-entity/3rd-party, that does not give that/those 3rd-party/parties any right to harm/oppress an user/group of users, neither this/these 3rd-party/parties has any right to massup or play or censor or surveillance etc. All must/should honor all reasonable laws of the land/scope/area, that majority approves of, which in the long run bring benefits for those who follows such law. (That does not mean i'm saying i support laws which were made over unethical lobbying/force, for favoring few/own groups).

A publicly accessible mailing list/forum reflects the minds, depths of it's posters. If you dont like a post/comment, then you must post that you oppose it, or you must post that you disagree with it or post your own opinion and post appropriate & truthful facts. But deleting/editing speech... And please do not go on posting only one side of the story, read more on it from various sources, then discuss.

( Certain amount of ethical surveillance is ok if absolutely necessary, but in extreme amount with massive expenses while fundamental needs are not appropriately served first, definitely not right. Or to do biased profiling & go after specific user's detail/more info or revealing chain of related info, or, to censor/edit/delete facts/discussion/opinion ... are very unproductive, destruction of freedom, and ..., and causes various bad repercussions. we need to be more smart/intelligent/etc about handling such ).

There are various alternative mailing list service provider(s) for open-source developers, many of which does not act/react like Google type of entity.
But i will recommend Dispora's own mailing list, definitely.

If diaspora to cater users who care about Privacy, Freedom of speech, etc then you/we should reflect that on our services/action/talks. Please do not act with double/multi-standard.

a mailing list / mailing discussion forum/media should not avoid at all, non-google mail holders.

please make sure mailing list software/service-provider supports/allows users to use GPG protected/authenticated accurate communication.

Many of the other internet sites already showing Diaspora respects users Privacy, etc ... if those are not the case, then you should request them to edit/change those with your new slogans/dialogues/ideology.

Sorry for too long posting. just was reading/writing. trying to add my understanding. pls discard/dis-regard where invalid.
-- Bry8Star

I don't see what the big deal is about Google. They have done a few things I don't agree with, but for the most part they rock, and play a very important role for keeping the Internet open and free. (One of the few large corporations to do so.)

Moreover, I think that we have much bigger issues on our plate, such as keeping the project going, and growing the user base. I don't know if you've heard, but there's still a lot of folks out there who think that the project is dead (or on life support). If we're going to debate something like this, we should do it when we're in a more stable position.

There is something I don't understand.
Here are some guys who want to discuss in a forum and not on a mailing-list. And Robin Stent has even set up a new forum, which is a nice gesture. But why do you think that loom.io and especially this discussion here is no forum at all? We're already in a forum. What is wrong with loom.io in your eyes and why should we move from loom.io to yet another forum?

Another reasonable point is: at my usual FOSS-project Stud.IP we're proud of having our developer-discussions being run on our own software. It would be a shame if we needed another software than our own in order to communicate. Since Diaspora* is also a communication-plattform, we should probably find a way to communicate within Diaspora with our own diaspora-users. If we're not able to communicate freely on a high level in Diaspora* than our software needs features that allow us to do so.

A forum has a lot of overlapping functionality to Diaspora* itself - but mailing lists and Diaspora* do not really overlap imho. Especially the dev mailing list I see as important - some things are not just good for discussing in a social media environment where it is very easy to miss posts. A low volume mailing list is easy to follow - and also allows people who are not using Diaspora* but are interested in the developments in it to subscribe.

The diaspora-discuss list has been very quiet, I'd say probably because people are discussing Diaspora* on Diaspora* - which makes absolute sense. So should we move discussion off Diaspora* to a forum? I'd say no - why should we?

Of course if someone wants to run a forum and people want to use it - by all means no one is stopping you ;) But for making a forum an "official tool" it would really require discussion on the whether we want to encourage discussion outside of DIaspora* itself or maybe just try to improve DIaspora* to handle forum functionality too.

Rasmus I totally agree that any organisation should use their own "product" and I think once the groups function is developed that will be a realistic proposition.

One thing I like about Google Groups is the choice of how you interact with a mailing list. You can use email only, web interface only or both. While I don't keep up on developments in FOSS mailing list software, I haven't personally seen anything else that does that. I personally prefer not to interact with a mailing list by email, my inbox is full enough as it is.

Is there any FOSS mailing list software that offers a web interface similar to the (old or new.. preferably old) Google Groups interface? If so, and if it's easy to install and maintain (and secure.. don't want it hijacked by spammers lol) I'd vote to switch to that.. but it looks like I have a little time before this one closes. :)

Why do you need groups for developer-discussions, Robin? Wouldn't a hashtag like #diaspora_dev also do?

What loom.io has and Diaspora has not is polls, which is actually a very nice feature. And here we can search for older threads much better.

Rasmus, posts in Diaspora* are easy to miss and due to the nature of Diaspora* federation - not everyone will get the post. It just doesn't work well enough for this use case.

Email is a "just works" medium and good for communicating stuff.

which software is needed to realize a mailinglist on an own server and how big are the needed ressources ?

But why do you think that loom.io and especially this discussion here is no forum at all? We're already in a forum. What is wrong with loom.io in your eyes and why should we move from loom.io to yet another forum?

Loomio is for proposals and voting, discussion about how to move forward with development of Diaspora software, documentation, etc. It's a kind of 'steering committee' (although anyone is welcome to take part). It's not appropriate for help requests, general discussion and so on. A forum with separate sections would (I think) be the best place for such discussion, at least until federation is truly sorted out.

Of course, once the Diaspora network is developed to the point where such discussions can be carried out reliably and easily using hashtags on Diaspora, we may not need an external forum any longer.

As I said earlier, we can install somewhere something extremely lightweight, like PunBB and get a functional forum. After all, all big open source projects have a forum. And for a good reason.

Adding a forum to the new project site is definitely doable. If enough people really want it, I can add the feature in.

Steven,

Group Server has matching functionality as that of google groups http://groupserver.org/ we were hosting diaspune list on their free service https://diaspune.onlinegroups.net/ They have become a paid service, but the software is Free.

If we do dump Google groups I would like something like Group Server as written by Praveen. Then we only downgrade our mailinglists a little bit.

If this proposal passes we should decide on a suitable mailing list engine somehow, maybe a follow up proposal.

(I still think this is totally unnecessary though :))

The reason I say it is totally unnecessary is that our mailing lists are very low volume and having to install and upkeep some software for those is just plain overkill. Let Google pay for our mailing lists if you hate them so much :D

A forum is a good idea when it comes to end users, for example the Ubuntu forums. But I think we should try to use Diaspora itself for that.

A forum is not a good tool for project coordination. Given the lack of people actually doing something, there isn't much to be coordinated anyway.

It looks to me (which I didn't express clearly at the start) as though the best thing to do would be to retain a mailing list for developers, as this seems to be a means of discussion and notification with which developers are comfortable, and to set up a forum (preferably on diaspora-project.org) for end user discussions, help with setting up pods, all that type of stuff. As the project grows, and more users sign up, and more people set up pods, I'd expect there to be an exponential growth in need for such a forum, and it would be good if we had one ready and (preferably) self-hosted.

Whether the diaspora-dev mailing list remains on Google groups or moves to another platform would then seem best to be left in the hands of those devs who use it, and the balance of them seems to be to leave things as they are.

I'd suggest open a general help/discussion forum, and closing diaspora-discuss mailing list. Do we need a separate vote for that? Obviously, moderators would be needed for the forum.

Christophe, at the moment we're using Loomio for project co-ordination, and Github for development co-ordination. This vote is only about the mailing lists, not about shutting down everything in favour of a forum. Don't worry.

@Praveen Group Server looks like exactly what I had in mind, thanks.

@madamephilo Using Google Groups means it's not opensource? Just based on the Google Groups I'm a member of, by that standard, the following projects are not opensource:

• Rails
• Ruby
• JRuby
• jQuery
• CarrierWave
• Capybara
• Cucumber
• RSpec
• Compass
• Devise
• Bootstrap CSS framework
• And many more (I'm not going to list them all, the examples above are good enough).

Literally all of those projects meet every definition of Free Software and/or OpenSource, Matz (the creator of the Ruby language) even go an award from the Free Software Foundation for his contributions to Free/Open Source software.. but they all use Google Groups for their mailing lists. :)

Today I wanted to post a new thread on diaspora-discuss mailing list without a Google account. So I wrote the message and sent it to [email protected] but the message didn't appear on the list.

So much for using non - Google email address for posting to a mailing list.

@petarpetrović , you need to subscribe to the list first - the same way as for any other mailing list :) Also the first message after your subscription message is sent will have a little delay due to spam control.

It works - I tested it - scroll down some messages below...

Well, I've registered previously. OK, waiting for the message to appear...

So guys, it seems that we are divides on this point. As we have a lot more urgent things to do, I propose this :
If someone takes the entire responsibility of new mailing list, that means creation, migration and administration (including spam management, a task to do everyday), it is okay to switch, but else, devs have more important things to do than setting up a tool which already exists and works well.

(I repeat, I am for leaving Google because I think that people can refuse to subscribe because this is Google, but I have no time to run a mailing list. If someone want to do it correctly, he is welcome :) )

I have a Linode VPS with Debian 6 on it, and I am willing to dedicate my time and energy into running mailing lists. I will only need a domain for it, obviously. :-)

@petarpetrović would you run Group Server? Really wouldn't want to lose the nice web UI..

The thing that I think is funny about people not trusting Google is that the same people are readily going to trust a single individual instead. At least there are rules on how a corporation can use your data (and some actually follow those rules), but if an individual sells your data it's not even illegal ;)

Just a generic comment ;)

As for domain - whoever would run the list I think we can use something like lists.diaspora-project.org ... @seantilley-communitymanager ?

@jasonrobinson Well, I can send you the photocopy of my passport if that is your concern, then you can sue me if I sell your data. :-P

Ontopic, yes, I can set up anything you like, GroupServer, Mailman, whatever the community decides.

@petarpetrović sorry, your message was in the mod queue, didn't had a chance to check it until now.

@jonnehaß Ah, great. I thought I had my mail server messed up. I guess I should be able to send messages without moderation from now on?

Well, since it is working now and since a lot of people object of migrating off Google, I suggest that we stay there. Or, open the mailing lists at librelist.com.

@petarpetrović wasn't distrust towards you, was just wondering in general why some people trust single persons more than a regulated collective of single persons - I just think it's odd. I trust companies better than single persons :D

And yeah only the first message from your email is moderated.

Librelists.com seems like a decent idea though it has no UI to write messages which is nice about Google Groups. And browsing archives is kind of limited. But at least there would be no hosting to be done.

@jasonrobinson Well, we're a community after all, we should trust each other because we discuss about important stuff every day and we care for Diaspora*.

Btw, are we switching to something else in the end or not?

I thought about registering diasporum.net and putting a general user forum there, because potential users and podmins are just so more comfortable with forum stuff than mailing lists. We can also host our mailing lists there. I will pay for the server.

@petarpetrović the vote ends in 15 days :P

About forum, someone already set one up - might want to check if that one has lifted off first?

I know there is a forum already, but it is in no way affiliated with the project. Having a forum on our own domain would be much better in my opinion.

And I think that everybody who wanted to vote has already done so, so there's no need to wait 15 days to decide...

I think the best is to host everything (website, wiki, forum, mailing list, and even a pod, why not) in the same "official" place, which will belong to the Diaspora Foundation, and which will be administrated by a group of contributors "Sysadmin Team".

I think we really need to organize ourselves :p

(my own ) suggestion is this ( to increase Level of Trust ) :
these steps are needed to be taken:
(1) a official list of "Diaspora" project maintainer(s) or core-developer(s), and their emails/contacts-process are shown, (such maintainer/developer should show GPG/PGP keys so that authenticated accurate & encrypted emails can be sent toward them), then,
(2) a really helpful contributor/volunteer can PAY for a VPS account, (should be paid for at-least 1yr),
(3) using a newly-created suitable email account,
(4) and donate related access password, username, email-adrs password etc ALL, and then send those info to ALL of the appropriate official "Diaspora" Project Maintainer(s)/developer(s),
(5) then "Diaspora" Project Maintainer(s)/Developer(s) will load the software, transfer the old database (or convert text to db), etc.
(6) then if the donator person/group also wishes to become a moderator of it, give a moderator level access account & password to that donator, but definitely not full (not data-base editing level) access. And a donator or moderator should not wish/ask for that either.
(7) Full access level must remain in the hands of only official "Diaspora" Project Maintainer(s)/Developer(s).

And only in such scenario it can be "TRUSTED" with bit more confidence.

Such, TWO vps/kvm can provide/create fair-enough redundancy/fail-safe, so that even when one server is updated, then diaspora users, visitors can still use web-services from the other (2nd) server.

Various function/service/software can be combinded into/under such VPS/KVM/etc account, different sub-domain or sub-directory can be used for different purpose/service/software.

Since there are lot of users who cares about "Privacy", "Encryption", "Trust", "Censorship", "Freedom of Speech", etc, a comparatively highly secured track-record holder Linux/Unix OS should be chosen.

And please sign the domain-name which will be used inside this/such VPS/KVM/etc service/account with DNSSEC. So proper configuration is needed for BIND/named, and the DS dnssec record need to be submitted to appropriate registrar, or submitted to domain-name hosting service provider company. If they do not support DNSSEC, then 2 own nameserver (with 2 different ip-adrs) can be used for adding DNSSEC.

DNSSEC will allow all visitors to obtain very correct/accurate server IP-adrs & other DNS-record(s) info.
( As all DNSSEC supported software uses same root-key obtained from "ICANN" to verify the authenticity of obtained all DNS related data, so, hacker/crakers normally will not be able to alter/change them very easily ).

Encryption is needed for many reasons, along with one of the main reason, for "Privacy". So StartSSL, CA-cert.org, (or higher strength self-signed free) etc SSL / TLS cert (certificate) should be used for https/TLS encrypted connections.

DNSSEC / DANE now allows to store & use self-signed or paid-cert inside the DNS-Records of a domain-name. So visitors who are concerned about "privacy" & related issues, and other type of visitors, who prefers to use or will use multiple proxies, or chain of proxies, to visit Diaspora sites/services, then even such users/visitors ( along with directly connected users/visitors )
will be able to connect with very accurate website/server and with proper encryption, ( without something getting modified in the middle of the way from server to user, or on the way from user to server),
if/when users/visitors will also use a (3rd-party) local DNSSEC enabled & supported DNS-Resolver software ( like, "Unbound", "BIND", DNS-Trigger, etc ) and/or "DNSSEC Validator" ( Firefox plugin/addon ).

( i think, a self-signed CA certificate (cert), first should be made, and at-least fingerprints should be added+shown on a related DNSSEC signed DNS-Record and on a CA related webpage, so that users can view fingerprints & load that CA cert for connecting with diaspora sites/services with higher-strength encryption, and finally use that CA cert to produce (higher-strength) server cert & other cert for various "diaspora" servers, users ).

@bry8star the fact is, there is currently a lot of work to do on Diaspora itself, we are only a few developers, so we can't work in the same time on Diaspora, on the official website, on the wiki, on the forum, on the global structure, on security...

We need contributors.

@petarpetrović Why the rush? It's important to give people the time and opportunity to say their piece, and let people be convinced to change their votes. But even if no one changes their vote, I don't see the harm in waiting.

Alright, we'll wait for the voting to close. I am still willing to dedicate my time and energy into running the official Diaspora* mailing lists, if that's what we choose to do.

Thanx, Petar! That's a good job.

Let's enjoy the time we still have with Google <3

And btw, before anyone rushes to set up mailing lists before this closes, let's have a discussion first and then someone makes a proposal? Maybe a little less than a month is enough :)

Sure we will have a discussion. Maybe it will be cool if we start the discussion right now, because it's obvious how the voting results will end. Just my 2 cents.

Don't get it, why do you need to make another proposal ?

Flaburgan - if we needed a vote to dump Google - surely we need a vote to take something else to use? This proposal only says dump Google - it doesn't say what comes next.

And the votes for dumping Google are fewer than 50%, so I don't see a majority case for taking action. It's clear there are good arguments (and strong feelings) on both sides, and unless we can reach some level of consensus that either it would be better to leave Google and run our own mailing lists or remain with Google groups, there doesn't seem to be a mandate for action.

Actually Yes is a majority since abstained votes shouldn't really count? Of course we have not really agreed on strict ruling - except that Block is just a strong No :)

I can already see that we are staying on Google Groups. That's one major problem with this community - we cannot establish basic principles on anything, that's why the project is moving on so slowly...

i have noticed some development community was using such software, which was acting both as a forum and also as a mailing-list. Few users were posting via email, and few via forum, at the bottom of emails there was an indication what channel an user used for that posting. when i went to forum side, it seemed to be intentionally kept on non-editing mode, ... a member can post only, not edit.
... such software ( + settings/configuration ) should be preferred, (imho).

Then those who will use or prefer to use web-browser on a mobile device, or web-browser on desktop/workstn, ... can do so, ... and users who prefers to respond via email-client software ( like, thunderbird, outlook, etc ) can also do so.

( and such software should support HTTPS on forum side, ... and gpg/pgp feature for distributing emails/messages towards its subscribers and for receiving emails from users/subscribers/members ).

( if there is existing gpg/pgp key/cert for the email address of the mailing-list, or gpg/pgp codes/cert/key are created and shown on subscription page, ... then those who prefers to use gpg/pgp, can send encrypted message to the mailing list, so that emails do not get modified/changed in the middle of the way from user's email-server to diaspora mx/mailing-list/forum server. And then it/message will become public, or viewable/accessible by subscribed users/members only, or be made index-able for google/seach-engine bots ).

user's email-client software sends email from user's computer -> uses GPG/PGP key/cert of mail-list subscriber for encryption -> encrypted email -> internet ISP(s), gateways, middle-man routers+devices -> user's email-server -> internet ISP(s), gateways, middle-man routers/devices -> Diaspora MX/Mail-List/Forum server.-> mail-list handler software -> distributes emails/messages to all subscribed/members -> all subscribed user's email/MX server.

( if you do made it/message/posting "public", that is, any other non-mailing-list user or non-forum members will be able to view anyone's message, and if search engine bots are allowed to index any/all messages, ... then please do not forget to indicate (and do not forget to add "disclaimer" message for all users) on your subscription page, that any/all message will be come "public", so that users are completely aware that it/message will be made/disclosed/released/revealed to public, and only then legally you will stay cleared).

( or else, who comes here for "Privacy", and if found out later their message/communication is viewable by anyone, will not be happy at all ).

if such ( integrated mailing-list + forum ) software also allows or able to store (public-side) pgp/gpg key/cert of subscriber/member's email, and able to use that to send/distribute encrypted emails, then that will be even better.
It will help subscribers ( who added key/cert & prefers to use gpg/pgp key/cert ) to receive un-changed/un-altered emails. Emails will not get changed in the middle of the way from diaspora server to user's email-server.

Diaspora MX/Mail-List/Forum server -> pre-stored GPG/PGP key/cert of subscriber/member -> encrypted message -> internet ISP(s), gateways, middle-man routers/devices -> user's email-server -> internet ISP(s), gateways, middle-man routers/devices -> user's email-client software pulling/downloading email on user's computer.

i'm sure who are concerned about "Privacy" and related issues, will think about what i mentioned above. ( "Privacy" and "Encryption" goes hand in hand ). I think most are now aware of un-ethical surveillance of internet traffics/packets and existence of hijacking, DPI routing, SSL/TLS traffic interceptors/scanners, etc which exists in the middle of the way in the hand of various types of middle-mans who are using it in-appropriately. ( even wikipedia shows what is going on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_packet_inspection , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveillance , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privacy-enhancing_technologies , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberstalking , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_theft , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privacy_law , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymity , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS_hijacking , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS_spoofing , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_circumvention , http://www.dnsleaktest.com/what-is-transparent-dns-proxy.php , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Assistance_For_Law_Enforcement_Act , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_by_Google , Google & behavioral monitoring Phorm http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/phorm , Google & NSA Spying http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/news/story/2012-05-11/court-google-nsa-spy-china/54912902/1 , https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying , https://www.eff.org/cases/jewel , Google made List of all wi-fi stuff & location http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8684110.stm , https://www.pcworld.com/article/196397/Google_WiFi_Spying_What_Were_They_Thinking.html , http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Google-grabs-personal-info-apf-2162289993.html?x=0 , Google & CIA http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/28/google_buys_keyhole/ , Google violated Privacy with their "Buzz" http://news.sky.com/home/technology/article/15547473 , Google used-to dis-respect & block Pseudonymous user's & and their speech & Google still do on many of their services/products https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/07/case-pseudonyms , Privacy issue related to scanning of all gmail email's contents : http://privacyrights.org/ar/GmailLetter.htm , Google lobbies and also tries to hide it : http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/23/google_lobby_why/ , Google's Privacy breach : http://www.boston.com/business/technology/2012/11/19/judge-approves-ftc-fine-google/aR6ovDPNRs0upay1mIDCGP/story.html , Google hurriedly changed TOS policy to Track & monitor and use ALL user's all data/info on all of their whatever services they want to and for stopping lawsuits from various countries : http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/01/25/google_shakes_up_terms_of_service/ )

users who blindly likes/loves "Google" for all kind of stuff, should definitely spare some time to read or scan this webpage :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Google
thorough search will reveal much much more activities.

google has many good side as well, but unfortunately bad sides has taken over this entity/group, its currently doing & assisting harmful fundamental rights violation related activities & has become too greedy.

I'm looking into seeing what can be done with Drupal, as the MailHandler and ListHandler D7 Port could provide a hybrid forum that doubles as a mailing list. We could probably get some of the people involved with the old forum over on the new one.

@petarpetrović I don't think that's necessarily the case. I'd say our developer community is by and large doing a pretty good job of being on the same page about what needs to be done. We are polishing up a codebase, piece by piece, and we have a lot of good ideas about what needs to be fixed.

I think the real reason the project moved so slowly was because the project consisted of a small group of people making all of the project decisions in the past, which alienated some developers.

However, we're in a position now to change these things based on consensus. It's a much better environment for our community development, and the recent rise in Pull Requests from new contributors indicates to me that things are already starting to look up a bit.

Hear hear, Sean. Like in this case, for instance - the decision may be going against what I'd prefer, but at least it is being made by proper, open discussion about the issues and a vote.

Maybe this mailing list is extremely quiet because people who could use it are afraid of google and don't do it :p

@seantilley I know this is a bit off topic, but can you estimate how long will it take for the existing code to be fully refactored? I am looking forward to using Diaspora* with more features, not just with changes under the hood (but I really do appreciate all the hard work that is undergoing on that front right now).

That's a difficult question to answer. It really depends on what needs to be done for refactoring, I can think of a few things we've been talking about:
* UI code
* Put federation into layer
* Clean up controllers related to Messages and notifications.
* add GUID's to status messages
* improve queuing of objects between pods
* Expose developer API
* Find a replacement for oAuth-Provider gem if we still want to do app authentication. We could probably investigate how Tent's app system works and strive for compatibility.
* Replace single-post view
* OStatus compliance? (Evan has proposed working together in the past)

I could see this all taking a few months, but as more developers come in and contribute, the refactoring will get done faster.

Hey everyone, the Diaspora project is relying on third party services and as long as that doesn't cause any actual problems, let's keep it that way. We do have way more important problems to solve.

We're using Gihub, loom.io, Travis CI, Gemnasium, Code Climate, Google Groups, Freenode IRC, and the PubSubHubbub reference hub. Joindiaspora.com and other pods also use Mixpanel, Google Analytics, Google Hosted Libraries, and Chartbeat.

It has been Diaspora's strength that it didn't try to reinvent the wheel all the time.

Christophe you hit the nail. This is the way the internet works these days. It's just a futile effort to build everything from scratch.

I'm not against using third-party services, but we should choose them carefully based on privacy and security issues. Eg Github, Loomio as far as we know are safe in terms of user data, aren't known to collate and 'monetise' your data, pass it on to third parties, or anything like that. And they provide something we couldn't host ourselves.

Yes, to third-party services, but not in every case, and not any old third-party service... They should be ones, where possible, which there's no reason for anyone to feel they can't sign up to them.

So we ended up in a draw - 12 for and 12 against (11 no, 1 block).

Let's concentrate on real issues like marketing, community and code :)

We won't invest ourselves in that for the moment. When a complete environment will be set (diaspora-project, wiki, forum, maybe a pod...) in a server owned by the foundation, we will probably start a mailing list there.

Though I'm not as charmed as some into thinking that Google is a community and not a corporation with it's own interests, I agree with @Jason when he says that we have more important things to do in the present, and with @Christophe when he says it's no big deal that the D* project is relies on 3rd party services and as long as that doesn't cause any actual problems...

And I agree with @Sean on the do-ability of eventually adding a forum to the new project site, Drupal considerations, etc. --all in good time. belated vote, sorry!

Now that we have full control on diasporafoundation.org, it's maybe time to re-launch this discussion. Set up a mailman is very easy to do...

Mailman archives are not good (no conversations) and it doesn't have a web interface for participating like a forum. Groupserver has all these, but it is a bit tedious to setup.

TBH once Loomio allows requesting access I'd say we don't need the mailing lists any more. Just dump them and let's concentrate things here :)

Agreed for diaspora-dev. diaspora-discuss is still useful for setup help and announcements.

Given that this discussion has come up again, I would be in favour of us having our own mailing lists where we have mailing lists - and I think there are some circumstances where email would be preferable to loomio. I know nothing about mailman but how about sympa? I know a couple of services that use that. I wouldn't make this a priority though either...

Secondly, given that diaspora is a decentralised social network, we should have a group functionality that allows this and maybe that should be more of a priority? And given that we're using loomio and apparently it's quite good for this kind of stuff, how about implementing groups in diaspora as a loomio plugin? or more generally, implementing groups in away that allows plugins so groups can work in different ways (potentially even using third party services, presumably with oauth or something - but i don't know the technicalities of how this would work...)

Nick, I think everyone would love groups, but groups in Diasspora would be useless until federation of data between pods is reliable, always happens when it should, and is instant - and it is none of these.

I have accounts on several pods, and the results are drastically different on the different pods. One some pods I can see public posts I simple cannot get access to on some of the others; sometimes I can see a post, but on some pods I see comments on that post that I cannot see on other pods, even conversations I have taken part in on that pod.

With federation in this state, a groups feature would be worse than useless because it would imply that everyone part of that group would see the same things at the same time, which simply isn't the case as things stand. Therefore important discussions would not reliably reach all participants. This is why we've had to resort to third party tools, which do things that Diaspora cannot even hope to do until our federation is far better than it is at the moment.

So yes, nice idea in principle, but not practical until a lot of things have changed.

I've noticed the mention of a ML in the last BugMash, but then I realised, it was hosted on Google (which I'm pushing to get away from …).

However, is it possible to include the instructions Jason provided (a year ago) to (un)subscribe in the next mention on diaspora* as well? Not everyone grew up with a mail-based subscription, you know? ;-)

The instructions are in the wiki: https://wiki.diasporafoundation.org/How_we_communicate#Unsubscribing_from_a_mailing_list

That's fine.

I was asking for your posts on diaspora* inviting people to get involved.