Thu 12 Nov 2015 7:23PM

Groups and their principles

BH Bob Haugen Public Seen by 364

I'll try to list some groups that I think intersect enough that they should think about whether they should consciously become a network of networks.

I'll do this in some comments because I don't have all the required info yet, and in hopes that others will help, if they think this thread is useful.


Bob Haugen Thu 12 Nov 2015 7:27PM

The first group is the Open App Ecosystem, which this discussion space spun out of.
Here are some of their ideas and principles:

The Open App Ecosystem originated in Enspiral, which is yet another group. I think Enspiral needs to be considered as another group because the Open App Ecosystem idea took off in the minds of many more people and groups than Enspiral. (Thanks, Enspiral!)


Bob Haugen Thu 12 Nov 2015 7:33PM

Another group is the Alliance for Interoperability of Collaborative Technologies, AKA Collaborative Technology Alliance. Their principles and ideas are contained in the documents linked to their names.

According to the second document, their members include "Hylo, Enspiral, Loomio, CoBudget, Chalkle, Robin Hood Cooperative, Identity.com, Ethereum, Citizen Code, Metamaps.cc, Bitmind.co, KiwiConnect, Lifehack, Planetwork, Impact Hub, Refugio Resource, Pyxis, triaxiom9, CivicMakers...in spirit...Backfeed, CredEx, Village Lab, Ceptr, and Swarm."


Greg Cassel Thu 12 Nov 2015 7:56PM

^ I believe that Collaborative Technology Alliance is the beginning of a fusion of Alliance for Interoperability of Collaborative Technologies and Collaborative Software Consortium. Edward West and Ishan Shapiro are among the people who can speak most directly on this.


Bob Haugen Thu 12 Nov 2015 8:03PM

Yet another group met in the recent Impact Economy Summit, and which is continuing to meet. Meetings will be announced at Cooperative Infrastructure. Here's a metamap from that meeting.


Bob Haugen Thu 12 Nov 2015 8:06PM

And then there's the ValueFlows project, composed of these people.

Short form principles on the first link above. Long form linked from the short form.


Bob Haugen Thu 12 Nov 2015 8:10PM

But not to forget TransforMap, and their principles and more principles.


Bob Haugen Thu 12 Nov 2015 8:11PM

@lynnfoster - can you find some links for the PLP gang? Or other Ouishare gangs?


Bob Haugen Thu 12 Nov 2015 8:11PM

And who did I miss?


Greg Cassel Thu 12 Nov 2015 8:19PM

Thanks so much for trying to pull so many people and ideas together @bobhaugen .


Greg Cassel Thu 12 Nov 2015 8:19PM

You haven't mentioned Sensorica yet unless I'm having an episode of acute blindness, which does happen at times!


Bob Haugen Thu 12 Nov 2015 8:23PM

@gregorycassel - Sensorica is part of the Impact Economy group, altho @tiberiusbrastavice may want to say more. I know they are working with some new software connections.

(And they were one of the inspirations and sources for ValueFlows.)


Bob Haugen Thu 12 Nov 2015 8:29PM

And then ovn.space, which Sensorica is also part of.


Bob Haugen Thu 12 Nov 2015 8:30PM

And P2PValue, which Sensorica is also part of.


Bob Haugen Thu 12 Nov 2015 8:32PM

We should have a contest for who belongs to the most groups. Can anybody top Sensorica?


Bob Haugen Thu 12 Nov 2015 8:33PM

I'm not sure this is part of the same mindshare, but some of the participants are: Platform Cooperatives.

Actually existing platform coops.


Lynn Foster Thu 12 Nov 2015 8:45PM

can you find some links for the PLP gang? Or other Ouishare gangs?

http://www.pixelhumain.com/ (in French)

And there is WeZer (https://github.com/Valeureux/) and other Odoo (OpenERP) efforts.

But I don't know how to easily find sets of principles, which is your topic.....


Bob Haugen Thu 12 Nov 2015 8:47PM

@lynnfoster - it's ok re principles. I just thought it might be fun some time to compare and contrast sets of principles.


Caroline Smalley Fri 13 Nov 2015 5:00PM

Great list @bobhaugen ! Thanks for sharing. Just to clarify, Impact Economy is the name The Citizens Media (the platform) settled on for the summit and subsequent movement.


Bob Haugen Fri 13 Nov 2015 5:05PM

@carolinesmalley - is that the correct link I posted above for people to get connected?


Greg Cassel Fri 13 Nov 2015 11:15PM


Lynn Foster Fri 13 Nov 2015 11:31PM

@gregorycassel thanks for the Edward West post link! Great to see this attitude of collaborative alliance to create something bigger than the parts, and emphasis on getting away from the individual branding of projects and products.

A couple discussion points:

  1. I'm not sure the UI/UX is the key, although I agree it is important. The data has to mesh together too to actually create inter-operability and the ability to create a bigger system out of small open apps plugged together. Duplicating data is no fun.

  2. The list of applications is great, but there isn't much for actual exchanges, and nothing for creation of value, although there was more of a hint of that in an earlier version. If we're going to be able to manage our transition to the next economy with some seeds in place, those seem central to me.

I'd be interested in others' thoughts....


Greg Cassel Fri 13 Nov 2015 11:36PM

The data has to mesh together too to actually create inter-operability and the ability to create a bigger system out of small open apps plugged together.

I agree, and I think this has been a great focal point for some people in the history of Open Apps Ecosystem and Value Flows.

I suggest that UX is probably the key consideration for any end-user application; but perhaps inter-operability should ultimately be considered part of the UX? (The UX not the UI.)


Bob Haugen Fri 13 Nov 2015 11:38PM

Consider also community experience.


Greg Cassel Fri 13 Nov 2015 11:41PM

The list of applications is great, but there isn’t much for actual exchanges, and nothing for creation of value, although there was more of a hint of that in an earlier version. If we’re going to be able to manage our transition to the next economy with some seeds in place, those seem central to me.

I agree on this too, although I would imagine that even a lot of techies and coders are reluctant to look closely at value accounting systems/formulae for interactions, contributions and feedback which have traditionally been handled organically-- which seems good-- but also according to vast tangles of implicit biases and privileges, which isn't so good.

Perhaps value accounting systems are our wickedest overall problem, but I think it's a key challenge to face.


Bob Haugen Fri 13 Nov 2015 11:46PM

Re interop vs UX: think about the stories of the mutual credit networks. Some people belong to more than one network. Often people want to trade between networks. The Mutual Aid Networks are using two different apps, and members will have presences in both and intertrade between both. In Montreal, several organizations (with different internal systems) will move into the same lab and share resources. Interesting UX problems...


Greg Cassel Sat 14 Nov 2015 5:28AM

At the risk of information overload, I just ran into [Backfeed[(http://backfeed.cc/) via Ouishare's very new blockchain experiment . "Backfeed is building a canonical protocol and platform (akin to the HTTP protocol and the web browser) to enable blockchain-based decentralized collaboration, as easily as one would deploy a website today."

I myself am information-overloaded, diffused and struggling to constructively connect dots. ;)


Lynn Foster Sat 14 Nov 2015 1:32PM

perhaps inter-operability should ultimately be considered part of the UX?

@gregorycassel That's a good way to think of it, especially if you are starting with UX/UI as your focus. But it is a different animal from the technical side, requires a different set of efforts. But I'm happy as long as we get there.... :)

@bobhaugen good examples of this phenomenon.


Ria Baeck Mon 16 Nov 2015 7:33PM

What kind of groups are you actually looking for? only 'techy' groups it looks like...


Bob Haugen Mon 16 Nov 2015 7:40PM

@riabaeck - yeah, sorry about that. This conversation spun out of the Open Apps Ecosystem group, and started out to be a discussion about collaboration between people working on overlapping software projects.

But what kinds of groups did you have in mind? Maybe this discussion is too narrowly focused.


Greg Cassel Mon 16 Nov 2015 7:43PM

@riabaeck I personally am primarily concerned with social organizational tools and techniques-- including written protocols, agreements, policies and procedures etc-- and secondarily (but quite critically, these days) with software.


Ria Baeck Mon 16 Nov 2015 8:42PM

@bobhaugen @gregorycassel I come from other kind of groups, more in the social realm, not real organisations; like global self-organising networks with no written protocols, no policies, no procedures, no bosses, no official organisation; but with a strong culture of self-organisation and a lot of practices to support that self-organisation. No software knowlegde!
I find 'principles' different than 'protocols, agreements and procedures'... the first can help you in a complex and dynamic system, the latter are more for when you hold the idea that there is actually a right and wrong or when there actually is - which is not frequent in human systems...


Greg Cassel Mon 16 Nov 2015 9:28PM

I'll have to catch up more later Ria, but I believe your concerns relate quite closely to the difference I perceive between networks of shared interests and collaborative projects. I don't mean to imply that all networks or projects require formal protocols, policies and/or procedures. I'm practically an anarchist, so I believe in a radical minimalization of formal structure; at the same time, I believe strongly in this .


Bob Haugen Mon 16 Nov 2015 9:58PM


Bob Haugen Mon 16 Nov 2015 10:01PM

@riabaeck we like a human-level protocol called conversations for action. It does not need to be written down, but it can be formalized as a computer system protocol. It is a pure P2P protocol for coming to agreement. I don't think it implies right or wrong. I do think that considerate people use it naturally all the time.


Ria Baeck Tue 17 Nov 2015 8:25AM

@bobhaugen @gregorycassel As I read the links you provide I understand more now where you are coming from; and get the difference between 'networks' and 'projects' and more... Thanks!
and I am still looking if I can provide anything meaningful here...


Greg Cassel Tue 17 Nov 2015 5:19PM

I'm sure you can provide meaningful perspective, knowledge and wisdom here @riabaeck . I don't know if it will be worth your time, but it's definitely possible.

I believe that Lynn Foster, @bobhaugen and others are working on deeply important issues for communications and collaboration software. However, there's a profound gulf between 'tech-y" people and much of the activist world, which requires ongoing dialogue.

Some of us focus on re-imagining and redefining the language and metrics of economics relationships. I, for one, couldn't ask for everyone to focus on that.

The description for this group refers to alternative governance and open communication. Based on your comments here, I'm not sure if you deal much with governance matters, but you surely know a great deal about communications. Maybe you focus more on oral communication (in person meetings,teleconference etc) or maybe you focus more on writing and media.

Perhaps your experience with self-organizing networks, or movements, also does relate significantly to economics issues. That would be helpful to know.

I appreciate your interest, and please do let us know if you find a way to meaningfully relate here. Or to introduce yourself and your current priorities in general, or whatever you prefer.


Bob Haugen Tue 17 Nov 2015 6:04PM

@riabaeck I'll second what @gregorycassel wrote. Lynn and I have been active participants in many movements, which gives us motivation for working on tools for economic transformation.


Greg Cassel Thu 19 Nov 2015 3:47AM

Adding a group here: Noomap looks quite relevant, and Andrea Harding has been quite active in the Hylo thread A workspace on hackpad for the CTA, and suggestions for moving forward .


Greg Cassel Tue 24 Nov 2015 8:22PM

Another one new to me; David Hersey commented in the Hylo CTA group: http://leapforward.us/what-we-do/

At first look, it seems like a holistic and unitary vision, somewhat akin to Noomap. (As opposed to a vision of autonomously developed modules.)

They've done some intriguing mapping @bobhaugen :


Bob Haugen Tue 24 Nov 2015 10:38PM


Greg Cassel Wed 25 Nov 2015 10:52PM

https://gratipay.com/about/ --very interesting


Greg Cassel Fri 27 Nov 2015 9:04PM


Greg Cassel Fri 11 Dec 2015 12:11AM

This thread is still an informal and incomplete link dump for me! http://www.ethosvo.org/


Bob Haugen Fri 11 Dec 2015 12:17AM

Hey @gregorycassel - who knew this thread was still alive? We've participated in some email conversations with ethos. If you're interested, I'll see if I can find something public.


Greg Cassel Wed 16 Dec 2015 8:09PM

A general survey and categorical analysis of collaborative networks -- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Xo-ehJatzmxMek6gPG0h-d7yRSuiO6_flViTQNMAku0/edit#gid=0


Lynn Foster Wed 16 Dec 2015 8:25PM

@gregorycassel nice list....

Ping @jonrichter fyi


Greg Cassel Tue 12 Jan 2016 6:51AM

Another holistic ecosystemic approach: http://epiccollaboration.com/about


Bob Haugen Tue 12 Jan 2016 12:12PM

@gregorycassel - interesting, These things are popping up all over the place. Gee, maybe they could collaborate....?


Josef Davies-Coates Thu 4 Feb 2016 10:51PM

This is the best link-dump thread I've read in a long time. Fantastic work @bobhaugen @gregorycassel :)


Bob Haugen Thu 4 Feb 2016 10:57PM

I need that thanks button, @josefdaviescoates - but thanks. And didn't you write some principles for an organization once upon a time? How did we miss it?


Greg Cassel Thu 4 Feb 2016 11:38PM

@josefdaviescoates thanks; that's sincerely flattering coming from you. :) You may also want to check out the main link dump at Value Flows if you haven't already.


Josef Davies-Coates Fri 5 Feb 2016 12:05AM

BTW @bobhaugen (and everyone I guess) here's a collection of principles I put together back in 2004:


Bob Haugen Fri 5 Feb 2016 12:20AM

@josefdaviescoates - that's the one! That is totally awesome! Thanks for the reminder, and for people who have never seen it, take heed!


Greg Cassel Fri 5 Feb 2016 12:47AM

Wow, I'll have to look closer later, but those seven co operative principles are brilliantly rational and lucid-- thanks so much for sharing @josefdaviescoates !

I personally think those principles are quite harmonious with my admittedly ambitious interest in agreement-based organization. Josef, if you have time to look, I'd be really keen for your perspective on that current draft document.


Josef Davies-Coates Fri 5 Feb 2016 12:50AM

If anyone values that list of principles, may I suggest a donation to Internet Archive? :) https://archive.org/donate/ they've saved me so many times :)


Greg Cassel Fri 19 Feb 2016 1:09AM

two more:

Solid Specification https://github.com/solid/solid-spec
Stop Reset Go http://stopresetgo.org/


Greg Cassel Fri 4 Mar 2016 11:30PM


Greg Cassel Mon 7 Mar 2016 8:26PM

More of the many groups which are trying to address social and economic change holistically:


Democracy Collaborative is hosting The Next System Project March 10-12 in NYC... it'd be good for some of us to get connected with some of them.


Lynn Foster Tue 8 Mar 2016 12:12AM

@gregorycassel Hey thanks for keeping up this thread!


Greg Cassel Thu 10 Mar 2016 9:29PM

Courtesy of Francesca Pick : http://realeconomylab.org/#network


Greg Cassel Sat 26 Mar 2016 6:28PM

This pattern language PLAST group seems quite trans-network or "meta" in its intentions:


Crowdpowers has a very holistic perspective as well, and seems particularly focused on creative dialogue, including a collaborative book project: https://www.crowdpowers.com/


Bob Haugen Sat 26 Mar 2016 9:41PM

Helene Finidori of PLAST is awesome! You and she should talk some time, Greg.


Greg Cassel Sat 26 Mar 2016 11:32PM

Definitely planning to... gonna learn more about PLAST.


Greg Cassel Tue 5 Apr 2016 9:01PM

Here's another effort to create a decentralized co-sensing and media sharing network. Looks rather similar to Backfeed... they know each other, so hopefully they're comparing notes: http://www.synereo.com/learn-more/


Greg Cassel Sat 16 Apr 2016 1:05AM

A most interesting effort IMO to foster peer production creative networks: http://www.comakery.com/ -- CEO Noah Thorp who has contributed lots to Collaborative Technology Alliance's discussions of potential open source standards.

I believe this project is fairly new (in its public sense) and the website is sparse.


john gieryn Wed 20 Apr 2016 1:57PM

I really appreciate the Allied Media Projects' definition of Media-Based Organizing, as well as the digital justice principals of the affiliated project DDJC.


john gieryn Fri 6 May 2016 2:40PM

vaguely connected with Allied Media Projects (or more directly than I know), here are a couple groups that I think have pretty evident principles just in their landing pages:

Design Action Collective - Design for change: http://designaction.org
Electric Embers Co-op - Renewable powered, secure web-hosting: http://electricembers.coop/
Media Alliance (this one is less aligned {perhaps}, but part of the supply chain ;) - Media rights advocacy, formerly very involved w/ distributing, replicating, scaling indiemedia.net model: http://www.media-alliance.org/