Impacts of the Open Data Charter if implemented as the set of principles for open data in New Zealand

@jaydaley could I ask you nicely to rephase your proposal and let a voter understand what it means for them to agree or disagree in this case.

Can you define "replace" here, do we simply drop NZDIMP overnight? What might be the impacts then? Put yourself in the shoes of someone in an agency that has integrated NZDIMP tightly with their internal policies (they've acted in good faith and adopted the open approach as set out in the principles, a good thing)? How might they feel about this?

Perhaps take your statement in the current proposal verbatim and re-post as a comment in the thread too?

Remember we are building the case for adoption during this consultation (and investigating the impacts). There is follow up work to be done afterwards once we've built up the picture, so the proposal question may be more correct to say something like "I support the adoption of the Open Data Charter ... "*

Yes, it's semantics and language is important on the web (just as we've seen with "data" and "information" already) :smiley:

@camfindlay1 I understand there is work to be done if the ODC is adopted and discussion is certainly needed to unpick the implications and provide assistance and guidance to those working with the current NZDIMP. However, I think in this case we would be better off not mixing up the decision and the implementation and tackling the two separately. That's mainly because the ODC is a reasonable forward step from the NZDIMP (not perfect) and when framed in that way the implementation discussion becomes a progressive conversation.

I will change the wording to "I support the adoption..." as you suggest to acknowledge that there is work to be done after the decision is made.

As requested by @camfindlay1 I'm posting the text of my proposal "I support the adoption of the Open Data Charter as a replacement for the NZ Data and Information Management Principles" here verbatim:

"I am concerned that discussing this much further is a distraction from real progress and we just need to adopt the ODC and move forward.

While I regard the NZDIMP as world leading at the time they were produced and I am deeply appreciative of the efforts that were put into developing them, I believe the ODC is superior in three key aspects:

• The ODC is more modern and deals with a number of key areas such as pricing (free of charge in ODC) and interoperability better than NZDIMP.

• The ODC is a global standard and by adopting it we get all the synergies that come from working within a global standard with committed partners.

• The ODC is framed from the perspective of the citizens who will use the data in contrast to the NZDIMP that are framed from the perspective of agencies that publish data. The ODC approach better reflects the general shift in government interactions with citizens.

Following this decision a discussion is needed to determine if the ODC is a simple drop-in replacement for the NZDIMP or if further work is needed. However, I see that as being a progressive conversation given the important step forward that ODC brings."

Thanks @jaydaley - let's also update the proposal context text to set out some detail as to what "agree" means (phrasing proposals I have found to be part art and science to help others understand enough to lend their position :smiley: ).

Do you think something along these lines in place of your concerns text (which is now captured in the conversation section) might suit the proposal? If so, feel free to replace :thumbsup:

Agreement in this proposal means you: generally support the adoption of the ODC in New Zealand, you'd like to see the ODC replace the NZDIMP directly, you accept that there would be some work to be carried out to determine how this happens in practice (and we will begin to discuss this further in this thread).

This helps make the question a "yes, and..." style question inviting further dialogue.

@weijileong would you please suggest a rephrasing of this proposal - I can understand the spirit behind what @jaydaley is proposing here and think we should let it run. I agree that some of the preamble to that proposal would be best as part of the dialogue section in Loomio rather than the proposal context. Remember we can also run a series of small proposals towards a larger one.

I'd suggest once we can get a workable (it might not be 100% perfect, and what is?) proposal we close the current one and @jaydaley opens a new one with suggested phrasing. Note once a vote is placed on a proposal you cannot change it (to avoid a bait and switch situation).

@weijileong @jaydaley are you happy with this approach? Let's try to resolve and get the proposal underway by the end of the day if possible :thumbsup:

Hi @weijileong the leading points in my proposal are both explicit (nothing is being concealed) and intentional as I am intentionally proposing that we skip a lengthy comparison between NZDIMP and ODC and move straight to adoption of ODC based on a small set of important strategic differences.

A fully objective proposal to support the adoption of ODC over NZDIMP is not possible without thorough discussion of the two approaches, which is specifically what I am attempting to skip. If I were to change the proposal in that way, that would defeat the purpose of proposing this in this way and deny those of us who feel this way a chance to vote on a proposal of this nature.

A suggestion here then, given in the context on this thread we ask:

"As a thought experiment, consider what is affected or might need to change assuming the Open Data Charter was adopted in NZ."

Perhaps we can have dialogue here under that assumption and the current specific proposal isn't required until the end of the consult period once we've worked through a number of smaller proposals, impacts and issues?

I am quite wary of a vocal few trying to push for "either or" changes without consideration of how it may impact on the lives of others. I can empathize with the need for speed, but there is also a need to balance that with consideration for those who need more time.

Here is a draft proposal which is by no means authoritative:

~~

Title: Fast-tracking adoption of ODP as replacement of NZDIMP

I am concerned that discussing this much further is a distraction from real progress, so let us vote here to see whether we want to fast-track the direct adoption of ODP over NZDIMP, or take a more considered and balanced approach.

The ODC can be seen as superior over the NZDIMP in three key aspects:

• The ODC is more modern and deals with a number of key areas such as pricing (free of charge in ODC) and interoperability better than NZDIMP.

• The ODC is a global standard and by adopting it we get all the synergies that come from working within a global standard with committed partners.

• The ODC is framed from the perspective of the citizens who will use the data in contrast to the NZDIMP that are framed from the perspective of agencies that publish data. The ODC approach better reflects the general shift in government interactions with citizens.

On the other hand, we may want to retain aspects of the NZDIMP because:

• The NZDIMP not only considers data per se, but also information derived from open data.

• The NZDIMP has a clearer mandate on "long-term preservation and access" to data and information, whereas the ODP is more fuzzy, stating that historical copies of datasets are preserved, archived, and kept accessible as long as they retain value

• TODO: add another point

Following this decision a discussion is needed to determine if the ODC is a simple drop-in replacement for the NZDIMP or if further work is needed.

Agreement to this proposal means you support the adoption of the ODC in New Zealand, you’d like to see the ODC replace the NZDIMP directly and you note that there would be some work to be carried out to determine how this happens in practice (and we will begin to discuss this further in this thread).

~~

P.S. Someone might want to summarize some of the new points (at https://www.loomio.org/d/TA7dG9lj/aspects-of-nzdimp-not-found-in-odc) to put into the proposal e.g. those things around standards @aaronmcglinchy

Would be great to see you all in tomorrows teleconference around this, see https://www.loomio.org/d/rMwU9c3i :thumbsup: