Hub Meetings and Committee

Hi All,

In light of all the discussions re: private/public matters and the Hub. Spurred on by Caz's posting informative links in the Lammas Community Discussion and Update Board What'sapp thread, I wrote to the licensing section of the council directly to ask for clarity as I thought I'd understood what the guidelines said but I wasn't totally sure as there was huge amounts of text to wade through. Below is my e-mail and the council's response:

"Hello Amanda,

I'm aware that my neighbour Lambert has been in touch with you regarding licensing requirements at the Hub building at the Lammas Ecovillage, Tir y Gafel, Glandwr.

The answers to Lambert's queries have been very helpful and much clarity has been gained but there is still much discussion here at the ecovillage about when a Temporary Events Notice is required and when it isn't.

I have been looking through the Section 182 Licensing Act Guidance.  It's a huge document and there's a lot to take in but I came across this paragraph:

"Private events 

16.13 Events held in private are not licensable unless those attending are charged for the entertainment with a view to making a profit (including raising money for charity). For example, where a party is held for friends in a private dwelling featuring amplified live music, if a charge or contribution is made solely to cover the costs of the entertainment, the activity is not regulated entertainment. Similarly, any charge made to the organiser of a private event by musicians, other performers, or their agents does not of itself make that entertainment licensable – it would only do so if the guests attending were themselves charged by the organiser for that entertainment with a view to achieving a profit. The fact that this might inadvertently result in the organiser making a profit would be irrelevant, as long as there had not been an intention to make a profit. "

Would this mean that, for example, if there was a private party at the Hub (e.g. a birthday party or similar) that was not open to the public and there was no money being collected for profit or alcohol being sold, that a Temporary Events Notice would not be required?  And would this also be the case if, for example, a DJ was performing a set at the party after 11pm at night.

Kind regards,

Leander"

and the licensing officer's response:

"Dear Leander

Yes that is correct provided that it was a “Private Event” with no charge for the entertainment being made to the invited guests then the entertainment for these purposes would not be considered as a regulated entertainment.  Similarly if there was no sale of alcohol taking place at the event then a Temporary Event Notice would not be required.

Many licensed premises, village halls or other venues which hire out and hold events are required to be licensed and hold premises licences as in the majority of cases they are hiring out the room for a fee and they have a pay bar at the venue whereby guests purchase their own alcohol and the licensed premises is making a commercial gain.

So for example just because the event is invited guests only and could be classed as being a private event it would very much depend on the circumstances at each event.

 You could not also charge guests a ticket or entry fee and you cannot include the cost of any alcohol within a ticket or entry price as this would be considered to be a “Hidden Charge” – a TEN would be required in this instance.

I hope this helps to clarify but please don’t hesitate to contact me if I can be of any further assistance.

Kind Regards

Amanda

Amanda Millard

Licensing Inspector – (North)  / Arolygydd Trwyddedu (Gogledd)

Pembrokeshire County Council / Cyngor Sir Penfro

Telephone / Ffôn: 01437 775276

Email /Ebost [email protected]"

A small Hub team has been formed (based on those who showed an interest when asked at an historic meeting) to enact various hub developments (as agreed by plot owners), and small practical matters such as covering the non-functioning fire alarms, cleaning, replacing broken tiles, stocking kitchen consumables, etc... If anybody wants to know more, please get in touch.

Thanks, Tao, I think the best version of the transfer of ownership is the lease. We can't actually give the hub away without a 100% shareholder agreement, and that is unlikely to happen. The intent was that well-thought-out detail in the early stages protects all parties from subsequent stress and misunderstanding. We want to get those details right, however, and take all perspectives into account.

The reasoning for the lease wording went like this:

1. local council accountability. H&S etc has always been there, just ignored. It does not need to be explicitly in the agreement, it is required by local legislation, and we thought it best to include it for clarity. Maybe it looks like officious control?

2. we thought that clear boundaries for hub use would protect the charity trustees from coming under peer and social pressure esp with regard to late and loud parties. I was thinking of the stress Hester and Fae came under as Kit was trying to bully and micromanage, as well as the stress of arguments/counterarguments regarding Shaun's funeral. Clarity would have prevented that scenario.

3. including the function of plot owner consent for out-of-hours events was to facilitate permissions that the trustees were not free to give.

4. we imagined several plot owners would also sit on the hub committee as representatives of the community in their own right. There was no intention of TyG directors having any further involvement, apart from assisting with decisions regarding the fabric of the building and fulfilling landlord duties.

The idea of a non-ambiguous document was to avoid later disagreements and discussions and to actually give the trustees freedom to act.

We also thought about a two-tier membership but didn't want to unnecessarily control how the hub committee did things.

I'm concerned that it gave you the impression that the directors of TyG Ltd were retaining control, the opposite was our intention. In terms of getting engagement from the community perhaps a plain English version with the rationale should be written up?

@Tao many thanks for your feedback.

Hey there. I'd like to offer a bit of feedback on the proposals for a legal framework.

I have reservations. I am concerned that this arrangement is overly encumbrant (because it forces detailed accountability to both local government bodies and TyG Ltd directors) - and that this will discourage people from becoming (or staying on as) trustees. I am concerned that this arrangement also has potential to cultivate division (when TyG Ltd directors disagree with the charity trustees for example), and I also think that because this arrangement provides passive control of the Hub for TyG residents (through TyG Ltd), it will remove incentive to positively engage with how the Hub is run.

I think it would be better to transfer ownership of the Hub, which would engender a much more empowered purpose to the charity, and by extension would be much more attractive to engage with. I think we could build a double membership arrangement into the legal framework, making provision so that any public social events would need the support of both TyG members and the wider membership: this would provide security for those TyG residents concerned about late night noise. There could also be an extra layer of security for TyG Ltd - by putting a series of 'reasonable and respectful use' covenants in place as part of the ownership transfer.

Having said all that I recognise that every legal framework has limitations, and I know from experience that the functionality of any arrangement is entirely dependent on compassion, goodwill and the ability to compromise. I can see a considerable amount of work has gone into this proposal and in the interests of supporting initiative, I am content to put my reservations aside and give this a chance - whether there is enough momentum for take-off will be an important indicator of reception.

Update on refurb. https://www.loomio.com/d/cy7PXgSo/general-refurbishment-chat/3

@Lambert Kleinjans @Katy Taggart could we put these draft documents in Google Docs, either as a Google Doc or PDF, with open link access, otherwise people have to download the .docx. ? It's not very user-friendly and probably impossible for those just on smartphones.

@Matthew Stephens Hey Matt, sorry I moved your post in error, it's back here again.

In response to the query, it means that if an event requires a license by local licensing laws, ( alcohol sales, music and dancing events) renters are required to get the license. It's actually a little redundant, local laws require it and the standard lease terms that we have copied and pasted include that. It's really there for clarity as there has been ambiguity in the past.

Hello, Guessing this is the right place to respond to Lamberts Hub Lease Draft, Thank you by the way.

So under Additional Provisions section 54 you mention ' appropriate licence' could you explain what you mean by this ? Many thanks