Immigrant & refugee capacity

Couldn't agree with you more :=)

@alanforster of course we should be thinking long term, but we can't change it all at once ... what are the FIRST steps we should be taking to:

replace the notion of 'employment' with something that means that we all have a livelihood? (when that, really, happens winz will no longer be relevant, so that problem is also solved!)

Why must we offer precedence to pacific islands? why not treat all earth's citizens the same? (practically, people from the other side of the world will be less able to get here anyway, so they will self-select, no need for policies of preference?)

Personally I agree with your ideas about farming ... lets have more constructive ideas like that :)

Miriam.
We have started by finding a serious space to discuss and form consensus here on loomio.
1. Invite more aware thinking people into the discussion.
2. Educate those around us to the
true reality of the unethical system that has been corrupted by and for those individuals, groups and families.
3. Teach others to communicate unemotionay about the actual issues rather than personalities.(So many just feel and react with abusing jk personally for eg. When this happens jk and ilk win, dialogue stops and that person becomes politically irrelevant).
It is hard work being in a system so pervasively wrong for so long
and getting others to see it for themselves. The truth is becoming clearer but look through a political facebook thread and can see the average mindset...lost.
One by one. Until there is a critical mass of understanding and consensus. Then we need to take back the government who think they rule us instead of being
our employees.

Great Alan, We need someone to lead that. What abilities, skills and type of background should such a person have?

Colin Re How an economy works.
You've revealed a fundamental issue with our current system. Thinking of farm workers as a 100,000 worker units who can be moved like a chess piece.
i suggest that there is and has been a desire, perhaps even a natural yeaning for a land based life closer to nature, this is being expressed by all those who buy a batch, a lifestyle block of small farm, grow a garden,
form a food cooperative, and those even who hunt, fish and forage,
We have the space in nz to "using more manual and diverse agriculture". To provide that reality to more and still overproduce food for export.
I remember when i arrived in nz how shocked my parents were at the price of lamb, local and fresh. Turns out that the price here (minimal transport / handling) had been set to match what could be achieved by a piece of frozen lamb in the export market (cries of that,s not even fair or logical fell on profit ears and politicians assured us its for the county's best). Result less lamb consumed in NZ. With our markets and economy at the mercy of globalization, Trying to fix the local issues is severely hampered (put politely). The reason we have jk for eg:
is that we (ex me) thought that a hotshot specialist in finance was what would be more likely profitable personally or understood this "global trade world economy" .Turns out the wrong person in the wrong lob doing it wrong. Why? trying to serve the global level of operations above the local. Result = failed to serve the people to the degree of, calls for removal from office for treason by organized groups of serious intelligent professionals and academics and hundred of thousands of citizens.
Are these,"politically irrelevant", "breathless children"
Mass defamation of character ?
Our democracy as well as being archaic, is too slow to respond to its peoples needs effectively, is economic obsessed, condones legalized crime, deception, spying on its citizens that may oppose it.
Its so flawed it a miracle it still operates.
Hence my stance.
Politically --radically forward
Agriculture --radically backwards

Thinking of farm workers as a 100,000 worker units who can be moved like a chess piece.

Actually, I'm simply thinking that producing more than what we need is uneconomic with the inevitable result that simply producing what we need will free up ~100,000 people to do other stuff such as develop and build up our tech capability. This is, IMO, the actual purpose of increasing production.

i suggest that there is and has been a desire, perhaps even a natural yeaning for a land based life closer to nature, this is being expressed by all those who buy a batch, a lifestyle block of small farm, grow a garden, form a food cooperative, and those even who hunt, fish and forage,

That would depend on if we all wanted to go back to living without computers, cars, trains, banks and pretty much everything else that is part of a modern society. I suspect that ~90% of people don't want to.

Also, this survey would indicate that you're probably wrong on your supposition.

We have the space in nz to "using more manual and diverse agriculture".

No, we really don't.

Our democracy as well as being archaic, is too slow to respond to its peoples needs effectively, is economic obsessed, condones legalized crime, deception, spying on its citizens that may oppose it.

Yep. Our democracy is more accurately described as an Elected Dictatorship. In fact, it was pretty designed that way. It actually takes power away from the people and gives it to the rich while maintaining the illusion that the people have power.

Great discussion everyone, I think this also calls for a new thread dedicated to the protocols and processes of our governance and administration system.

I think we can do both

Politics - radically & technologically forward

Agriculture - radically "backward", yet technologically "forward".

Yes William that,s exactly it .
The idea of a return to the land sounds to many like the
Mcgillacudies great leap backwards policy (circa Muldoon era), Which was basically a call to abandon the modern world lock stock and barrel.and return to 18th century agrarian pre industrial life. (part joke, part protest and part serious proposition).
We need technology and science (in the right areas) we need money (real valued tradeable tokens). We need a political system for management and organization not governance and exploitation by proxy. We need medicine but not big pharma driven or sub standard for book keeping reasons.

We need to capitalize on our own nations creativity in problem solving instead of following the latest overseas "economic theory" and ideological trend, Like Rodgernomics etc.
And hey if it goes belly up globally we are in the best place on earth to survive rebuild a society.
That,s why a few smart foreigners have bought "bolt holes" here.
Getting agriculture back to balance would be the best
survival insurance there is. Dependency on imports
for food and fuel makes zero sense in NZ.
If it happened tomorrow we have 3-5 days in the supermarkets (in a land with a massive food surplus !).

Not sure when it happen but this thread is now way off topic
sorry if that was me.
Immigrants and refugees.