Loomio
Mon 15 Jan 2018 2:42AM

[MIP-002] Updated MVP towards multi-sig, sharded social backups and a p2p exchange coordination space

DU Dan Hassan Public Seen by 314

Adapting the mmt MVP

Am writing this in a rush to get at least a draft out before nova wakes from her nap so that there is something up before the meeting.

TL;DR

There are things which we can work on now and extend the mmt software so that it is useful for existing participants of the crypto-circle. My gut is that if we can solve the problems listed below then we will also have a really valuable prototype to offer the Athens project for how to manage these types of things....


Think it is important for us to gather feedback from the Crypto Circle participants. From this we can figure out what worked for folks and what didn't.

From my perspective the following things worked:

  • offering folks risk-free IOUs in crypto helped to onboard people into the system who might not have otherwise have made the leap
  • increase in fiat value of holdings has opened up new worlds of possibility for all participants. some really rad projects now have funding.

What did not work?

  • me being responsible for peoples private keys has been a real strain / stress / risk.
  • by doing so I am not sure the full ramifications of the potential of blockchain tech has had a chance to sink in for people.
  • a large amount of time was needed to teach people about how to manage their private keys so that risk of loss is reduced.
  • people who could not attend the workshops are left exposed to mismanagement due to not being trained. This is a strain for them but also for me (the issuer of the IOU) as it would REALLY SUCK if a person lost their private key (been there, done that, this stuff is really unforgiving)
  • Turning crypto to cash has been an ongoing pain (me cashing out for people adds a lot of work for me)

Problem spaces:

  • keeping private keys secure
  • allowing people to be responsible and in custody of their own funds (encouraging self-sovreignty and reliance and decreasing dependent/paternalistic models)
  • helping folks to leverage the social relations to help create liquidity

After many hundreds of hours of discussion with people I think that it is possible for us to shift the MVP to resolve the main downsides. I personally think that if we solve these issues there will be overlap with the experimental prototype that the athens crew are working on.

I suggest the following as a provocation for a starting point

  1. I think we should come up with some questions that can be given to all crypto circle participants to gather feedback
  2. I think we need to find a way to issue conditional IOUs
  3. Where the responsibility of the private keys does not stay with a single person.
  4. I think setting up a peer-to-peer exchange to aid coordination in exchnage of crypto for cash would be immensely useful.

Expanded:
1.
A number of our crew are academically trained in this type of research. I think this is a well defined ask that we can get help with to gather then type of info which would help us to make sure we are building something which speaks to the experiences (good and bad) of participants.

  1. An idea which I have been researching and developing is the prospect of socially backed up, sharded custody of condiotionally IOUd private keys.

Example (how it used to work):
- This is how I actually did it:

  • When someone agreed to an IOU I then created a new spreadsheet line (a BUY order). I set the date, the USD amount of the loan and set the crypto price in USD at time of loan issue. Based on this and the split (medium or high risk) I then assigned the number of crypto. In some cases people gave me cash, so it was noted if this was paid upfront or a loan.
  • After an amount of increase in the crypto (NEO) I then sold an amount of NEO which cancelled out the initial IOU. Roughly this was when the fund had doubled in value.
  • It is worth noting here that I did not send each persons crypto to a new public key. All the crypto stayed put.
  • This has meant the getting people off the spreadsheet has been a lot of work of calculating (and more).

Example (how I think it SHOULD work):
- This is an idea for how it could have worked differently

  • After someone has agreed to the IOU, the funds should be moved to a multi-sig wallet. 2 out of 3 signatories should be needed to move the funds.
  • We need to research if it is possible to set some conditions about the movement of funds. i.e. is it possible to automate the process of being alerted when the fiat value has doubled and corresponding amount moves to a pre-determined wallet.
  • Private keys should not be in any one individuals sole custody. This means we need to look into how to socially back this up so that all parties have an exncrypted back up of funds which can also be further shared securely.

3.
This is an extension of ideas about socially backed up private keys from point 2 above.

Example (how it used to work)
- This is how I actually did it:

  • Someone would contact me with their public keys. I would then send them their funds.

Example (how I think it SHOULD work):
- This is an idea for how it could work differently

  • People get their funds and also 5 encrypeted copies of the data (using secrets.dyne.org) which they can share with friends.
  • If they lose their private key, then they can recover the data with 3 of 5 of the secrets.
  1. Just what it says on the tin.

I am more and more of the opinion that we should stay as far away from banks and other such as possible. If we just write and release free software we avoid a world of pain. There are many exchnages which people can use to exchnage crypto -> fiat and visaverse. What we CAN do is help coordination of folks who know eachother to be able to connect with others in their social network who may want to sell crypto for cash or other way around.

K

Kieran Fri 2 Feb 2018 12:10PM

@ameba23 I can respond directly regarding the meeting last week, perhaps we should chat directly. Suffice to say another node in the MMT network and an attached Loomio group has been setup with a monthly meeting scheduled to help work out what it's goals and purpose is, and a resolve to work out both self-funding mechanisms using crypto. I'm more than happy to have a catch up on Mumble / Skype re: this to give you the low down @dre1 @afrosapien @emily41 and @lyn4 were pivotal in this and might want to be involved in the conversation. Just to say that I don't want to speak for the group. What I think is important to say is that with this group/node/cell in its infancy, problems which software can solve will emerge once it scopes out its own requirements, and this group will begin a dialogue with the software team once at this stage.

Not wanting to jump the gun at all, nor wanting to speak for the new group, but a use-case I currently envision as a possibility is a self-funding mechanism using a crypto endowment and the profits from that collectively managed in a multisig wallet with sharded private keys. I think this slots in neatly into @danhassan's and my own research into Freecoin / Social Wallet. So perhaps its worthwhile exploring that avenue now, which means when requirements and ideas to begin to emerge and become needed from this and the Greece group, we have some of the technical knowhow to assist with rolling out prototypes.

The practical usecase of p2p trading between members has already emerged, i.e. actually withdrawing fiat currency without having to go via exchanges with crazy fees.

K

Kieran Fri 2 Feb 2018 12:20PM

What we've built so far is perhaps a mechanism for p2p trading between members to ease the pain of withdrawing?

I'm not sure it is the same use-case as a multisignature wallet for groups to collectively manage crypto and shard private keys, though the result might mean complimentary usefulness for our own situations. I'm also wary of building a one-size-fits-all solution, when perhaps two pieces of software serving specific purposes is better than one that does too much.

DU

Dan Hassan Fri 2 Feb 2018 7:40PM

@ameba23 100% agree that it would be amazing to get some feedback from both Afrotech Fest and also the Retreat. Can I suggest we keep those discussions in their relevant threads:

https://www.loomio.org/d/WHgN2bQt/-event-winter-2017-day-retreat-sunday-28th

https://www.loomio.org/d/S7cOGrwh/-event-afrotech-fest-26th-27th-january-2018

I agree with kieran that we should try to keep the scope of each conversation as narrow as possible given that we're a distributed team and our time together is a scarce resource and precious...

What I am hearing is that there will be feedback as folks involved in both report back.

Can I suggest that you and kieran and anyone else interested chat directly and then mondays dev meeting we keep the scope looking at the question of 'entering funds INTO the system'

Thanks as always for your attention to detail and for getting us to make sure we're taking good care and time with things!

DU

Dan Hassan Fri 2 Feb 2018 9:13PM

RE: invoking funds from meatspace INTO the application,

Seems like social-wallet (freecoin is being rebranded to this) has the same issue

https://github.com/Commonfare-net/macao-social-wallet/issues/85

Or, if not issue, then 'design'...

N

Nikolai Sun 4 Feb 2018 7:40PM

It seems like freecoin might be aiming to do most of the things in this MVP, except release funds based on a condition (e.g. the currency value doubling). There scope also doesn't include crypto other than BTC and faircoin but ours does. In which case should we just be aiming to combine efforts?

DU

Dan Hassan Mon 5 Feb 2018 10:13AM

@nikolai2 I do think we should be considering working together

MI

mix irving Mon 5 Feb 2018 10:50AM

So a summary of possible plan - we want a solution which spreads control of a wallet, and allows backups.

Who are the people we're going to give this solution to? Would one example be this group that started at afrotech fest? Where else?
It feels like multisig might help but also interested in whether this tech is needed for the groups we're interested in supporting? Guess this is why I'm interested in who the people are.


Sounds like there's a thread of p2p marketplace being discussed as well. That could be similar / different. I'm personally interested in this because I think helping people to connect and do trades could be fun and I can imagine most of how to do this (especially on scuttlebutt)


SocialWallet (freecoin) could be interesting. Is anyone yet using this tech? I'm apprehensive about code projects that are not yet in use. Would the prefered use of this be to attach it to bitcoin, or are we exploring local currencies or savings pools.