Adopt Water as Our Intellectual Focus.

S Sea Public Seen by 29

Water is "hidden" from us. Let's unambiguously adopt water. It would include all other issues and would be easily understood.


Justin Thu 8 May 2014 3:41AM

Seems we have people running multiple accounts on here. The people know who they are- your IP address is the same- please stop spamming the Loomio Group to prove a point.

It's not cute, please stop before someone else takes the time to compare users on here.


Julia Clark Thu 8 May 2014 4:36AM

Justin if you have information (with documentation) share it. Do not simply cause discord. <.<


Sally G Fri 9 May 2014 2:30AM

Justin, I have seen no indication of that; the names I have seen here match voices I have heard on the calls.


Jackie Fri 9 May 2014 4:30AM

The whole friggin move to loomio was based on widening participation and being more easily accessible and transparent than email and phone calls for some.

I don't agree with any of this checking up on people and vetting. Everyone in this group is known personally by someone else, either through online or on ground work.
There should be a presumption of integrity and that people here want to work together on the national gathering.

I see Sea's proposal to remove you got closed early, and you are here, Justin, so I assumed the group is making a move to move on.

While individual and group behaviors are very important, and should be discussed, I propose, for the good of the gathering, that this divisive and distracting battle y'all have created end or move to a group to settle it. I've actually been embarrassed and ashamed this week as I saw this unfold within our own ranks. I know many occupiers have already been through that in the camps - I didn't camp, so never have.

As far as I'm concerned this is a draw. Justin, if you reflect on the fact that most of us have worked together now for 4.5 months, you were the new and unknown factor except to those of us tuned into the NYC scene, and probably twitter folk. You came on strong, permeating every corner of loomio with material that had already been covered.or that no one was ready for, and in what appeared to be a condescending way. Can you find it in your heart to forgive the injustice of getting removed from loomio, cease with the accusations, and move on towards creating a great natgat?

Let's take this as a learning experience. Set up guidelines so we are all working on the same page. people who can't stand each other, don't interact! Don't be in the same groups. There's plenty for all of us to do.

We have a gathering to pull together in 11 weeks.


Sally G Sat 10 May 2014 1:07AM

Thanks, Jackie; it has been a bad experience, but we have all learned from it, I think, and you are right—there is too much to do to go on. Now, this is supposed to be a “water” discussion; can we get back to that?


Tricia Sat 10 May 2014 1:36AM

Water is a serious issue for the safety of the gathering. There's a Stage 2 Water shortage in Sacramento

In 2012 we spent a lot of time talking about amplification of speakers (we ended up using a loudspeaker) and no time on Water needs. Disaster ensued http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002889222


Sally G Sat 10 May 2014 3:05AM

From the point of view of an attendee, who was not involved in planning NatGat2012, it was not a disaster at all—big orange coolers of mint-infused water were always there, brought by Occupy Supply, I thought—though I later learned that it was basically Steven C. No idea what went on “backstage”, though, and of course water in quantity will be needed in Sacramento, despite any water shortage.


Sea Sat 10 May 2014 4:37AM

I started this discussion hoping to unify around water and the corruption (thank you to Julia Clark) surrounding water. Elders told me that any other focus would have less influence. From water and the corruption surrounding it, all of our themes and conflicts can be derived. So I adopt corruption and water inclusively. Nothing is excluded.

Such a focus could be influential on how Governor Brown chooses to treat us. Jerry Brown is shrewd and environmentalists do need to keep pressure on him. He was very creative his first term. We have a chance to help him be even more creative this time around..


Sea Sat 10 May 2014 3:31PM

Sally G's last statement may reveal some things. "... water in quantity will be needed in Sacramento, despite any water shortage."
There are limits to the environment and generally (even with water) the limits are either couched in terms of (vague because of weak historical knowledge) "biblical" references or (unknown because of mathematical sleight of hand) "scientific" references.
So far, very few people can question science. Yet the science may determine the possibility of using a lot of water when there isn't much water.
I then would like to open a scientific (interlude) element to our discussion. What the elders told me implied that the reason we're trashing our water, is because of things similar to the bible and similar to our current scientific understandings, yet different than both. That is what I hope this water discussion leads to. A new sociology and a new mathematics that makes it easier for Occupy to take the lead on water, which is what no one else may be capable of doing.
The improved sociology and mathematics has to do with Karl Marx's discovery of "Surplus Value". It also has to do with the formulation "f=ma" which Newton came up with.


Sally G Sat 10 May 2014 5:25PM

O.K., written late at night. I realize that there is not endless water, we do need to repsect that, but if you plan a gathering, you have to keep all the attendees from dehydrating, reasonably comfortable. I am interested in what you are saying about “the science may determine the possibility of using a lot of water when there isn’t much water”; are you talking about reuse of water, such as the grey-water/black-water systems of our more responsible buildings?

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