PPBE, Pirateparty Vlaanderen and PPI
Ilja
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Saturday 28/11 and Sunday 29/11 there was a Council Meeting of the Pirate Party of Europe (PPEU) where @Jelle Debusscher was listed as a delegate for PPBE[1]. This is quite weird, because that would mean that PPBE somehow decided that Jelle can be a delegate, yet no decision on this was even initiated on our public forum, let alone made. From the minutes that we can read that Jelle was present as a PPBE delegate on the first day[2], and absent on the second day.[3]
Then we find out that Lander (I assume @Lander Meeusen ) nominated Jelle for chairperson for Pirate Parties International (PPI)[4]. This is weird because members of PPI are parties and organizations, not individual people[5]. And they are represented by people that have been delegated by the respective party or organization[6]. It's also not people who nominate candidates for the chair, but the parties or organizations[7]. But PPBE didn't take the decision to nominate Jelle as chairperson of the PPI.
Then the PPI GA started the 5/12. Jelle was present. During the roll call, he was asked to clarify if he had an official written mandate from PPBe, to which he responded : "No that's a difficult situation. The PPBE is divided into camps and I'm just representing the Flemish one, but since I have an official mandate for them, and nobody else is present, I can be an observer member"[8]. Let it be clear, I'm from Flanders, I have never seen a decision to have a delegate to "have an official mandate for them [the Flemish 'camp']". Nor do I even know of any "camps". If someone feels that way, than we have issues that need resolving, and this seems a very wrong approach.
Sunday 6/12 the PPI GA continued. When PPBE was called, Jelle wasn't there, but later jumped in. Jelle was asked for "accreditation" (proof that he was indeed a delegate for PPBE ). Again he claimed that he had for Flanders[9] . When the vote for the nomination of the new chairperson for the PPI came up, the following happened[10];
PPI: Jelle, are you there?
Jelle: Yes I'm here
PPI: Can you please explain? Your nomination, is it supported by the whole PPBE or just by the Pirate Party of Flanders?
Jelle: Well it's certainly approved by Pirate Party of Flanders. I'm now in conversation with Pirate Party of Wallonia but it's not so simple to reach them.
PPI: OK good so according..
Jelle: But according to Wikipedia I am leading the Party in Belgium
PPI: [laughs] OK well then it's probably ok then we can count it then.
Jelle: Thank you very much
So Jelle claims:
There's a Pirate Party of Flanders for whom he's a delegate. Which, afaik doesn't even exist.
He claims to be trying to reach "Pirate Party of Wallonia but it's not so simple to reach them", while the Pirate Party of Wallonia also doesn't exist. (And no efforts have been done to reach any one from PPBE as far as I can tell)
He then claims that he is "leading the Party in Belgium" and quotes Wikipedia as a source. PPBE doesn't have a "leader" and nowhere on the Wikipedia page can we find Jelle listed as a "leader" or anything else.
Which makes me seriously wonder what's going on here? The PPBE isn't hierarchical. If someone wants to sail under their own flag and not the PPBE flag, they can. But that's not what's happening here. We see someone claiming to represent PPBE. They claim that they are listed as "leader of the PPBE on Wikipedia", which is false. They claim that there are two sides, Wallonia and Flanders, which is false. They claim "to be in conversation with the Pirate Party of Wallonia but it's not so simple to reach them", which is false. They unscrupulously claim to represent PPBE and even claim wikipedia as a source, which is a blatant lie! It seems someone tries to involve PPI into some internal struggle, that seems to be very one sided or not even exist.
Is there someone who can shed a light on this please? Is there more going on that needs to be resolved? It seems no real damage has been done now, but this is really not a good way to go forward in my opinion.
[1] https://wiki.ppeu.net/doku.php?id=7th_council_meeting_2020:delegates
[2] https://wiki.ppeu.net/doku.php?id=7th_council_meeting_2020:minutes_day1
[3] https://wiki.ppeu.net/doku.php?id=7th_council_meeting_2020:minutes_day2
[4] https://ga.pp-international.net/t/nominations-for-chairperson/269/6
[5] https://wiki.pp-international.net/wiki/index.php?title=Statutes#III._Membership
[6] https://wiki.pp-international.net/wiki/index.php?title=Statutes#IX._General_Assembly
[7] https://wiki.pp-international.net/wiki/index.php?title=Rules_of_procedure#Art._6a_Elections
[8] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MGj5aCVI4w&t=2420 (40min20sec)
[9] https://youtu.be/fN-qwqK7BWU?t=1091 (roll call)
[10] https://youtu.be/fN-qwqK7BWU?t=1579 (nomination for PPI chairperson)
Ilja Sun 6 Dec 2020 2:15PM
It doesn't matter that you wanted to be nominated for the board or for a chair, the result is the same. You publicly claimed on an international platform, to delegates of other Pirate Parties, open to everyone to hear, that"according to Wikipedia" you are "leading the Party in Belgium".
This isn't "creating an opening". An opening for what exactly? What exactly is the goal here? What is this about Pirate Party Vlaanderen, is there something people here should know? Is there something I should know? Are there problems that need to be resolved?
Jelle Debusscher Sun 6 Dec 2020 3:07PM
Apologies,
That is what Paul Bossu told me, and I meant the wiki, not wikipedia. Transcription is a bitch.
I currently am the Captain of the Antwerp Pirates, I have a mandate for the non-profit Mermaid and I work on multiple websites and social media platforms for the Pirates, also the Pirate Times editors.
At least I can say I'm pulling the Pirates forward.
My apologies for that one sentence, it still is no reason to put this on the front page of PPBE, slow news day?
Regards,
Jelle
Jelle Debusscher Sun 6 Dec 2020 3:14PM
Obviously yes,
We need a common mediachannel, where we don't start dissing each other.
Yes, creating an opening of cooperation since the PPBE has refuted being a part of PPEU and PPI while these organisations have grown and are our partners.
I find this way not workable where you without any communication start burning crosses or in this case an individual. Welcome to the world of politics? I think this has to stop now, I was purely out of interest looking to attend the meetings - as an observant, so without voting right.
Would this please you?
Renaud Van Eeckhout Sun 6 Dec 2020 1:57PM
Thank you @Ilja for reporting this issue in such a precise way :)
On my side, I can confirm every word of that message. But you don't need me to confirm it, the sources are there so anyone can check by themselves.
When we found out about the PPBE delegation at PPEU last weekend, I sent an email on a PPEU mailing-list asking clarification about this. One person (a former member of the PPEU board, I believe) understood there was a problem and removed Jelle from the list of delegates.
This email is probably why the PPI asked a proof to Jelle yesterday and today.
I hope we will have an explanation on this matter that could help us solve this problem and move forward.
Jelle Debusscher Sun 6 Dec 2020 1:58PM
Ok.Apologies.
Jelle Debusscher Sun 6 Dec 2020 2:55PM
CAN.you.Please.take.this.offline.without.at.least.communicating.with.me first?
Renaud Van Eeckhout Sun 6 Dec 2020 3:14PM
I don't understand your request.
I contacted the PPEU to know why they considered you the delegate of PPBE. They actually didn't check if you had a mandate, they trusted you.
Please, there are several questions asked, and you're avoiding them. It's not fun for anyone but let's solve it :)
bobrappe Sun 6 Dec 2020 5:11PM
Je vous remercie pour ces précisions importantes
Thank you for these important clarifications
Lander Meeusen Sun 6 Dec 2020 8:45PM
Hi everybody, I'll reluctantly pitch into this discussion, feeding what I essentially find a waste of time.
As for my part:
Ilja, you say that "we found out Lander nominated Jelle". Who exactly is "we"? And why didn't you guys let me know? (We've had very good communications last elections to get signatures in Brussels for your West-Flemish list, you know how to reach me.)
On the forum of PPI I wrote that I wanted to nominate Jelle as chairperson "if that is possible". As you (now) clarify, that is not possible, so we can all consider that nomination null and void. I can go into the reasons for my nomination, but that's a bit late and useless at this point. Too bad we didn't talk about this when you saw my nomination. Not very constructive.
As for Jelle's actions:
I leave that to him. I can't judge because I don't know much about PPI and PPEU. The reactions to what Jelle did (going behind his back to PPEU, public shaming on this forum) are a bit dubiuous in my eyes. I don't understand what you're trying to achieve? We have phones, facebook, e-mail. Why here and now after everything is done?
If I understand correctly, if Jelle wouldn't have participated there would have been nobody for PPBE, right? I wasn't at the meetings. Did Jelle say anything wrong?
As for PPI an PPEU:
It's nice to see these groups are growing, it gives us some (but not a lot) publicity here in Belgium, but other than that I have no idea what they are doing. It sounds to me like a bunch of people playing a show.
As for PPBE:
I understand Jelle's frustration. The Pirates of Belgium communicate through Loomio. I find that an inadequate way to communicate. I know there is a website, a wiki, pads. But I can't find easily accessible and readable info in the structure and people of PPBE. I think there must be easier ways. I've never seen a newsletter. There's no reply when I suggest to put something in the newsletter. I don't know who to go to to ask this. It looks a bit amateuristic to me, to be honest.
Jelle Debusscher · Sun 6 Dec 2020 1:55PM
Excuse-moi,
Iwasjusttryingtocreateanopeningandcan’ttypespacehere??
Iwasn’tgoingforthechairbutfortheboardbutitmiscomminicated,sorryformethisisalsoconfusing.
Idon’tknowhowtoreachyouotherthanthischannelandapologiesIusedtheword’camps’,unintentional.
Itwentabittoofast.
Imadeapadbuttherewasnoreaction.