Suggestions to present to Nightlife Advisory Board

OK cool I'm seeing the other threads! I wish there was more time for us to get a plan together (the phone call with Alvester is today, yeah?), but I am glad the communication system here looks promising. Chris let us know how it goes and thanks!

Huzzah! I am arrived!

Yup it's tonight at 8:30 EST. I will be reviewing and working on it for most of the day, so feel free to add any relevant points / approaches / info here. I probably will not go into too much detail with him w/o getting everyone's input and arriving at a consensus, but I've got enough to convey some key points and keep the conversation going until we meet, and will be inquiring about generally how the Advisory Board works as well.

Hey! You made it!

I think the "SMC Platform draft" looks pretty good for purposes of your discussion (assuming that's the document you're going to reference). Also, would definitely throw the housing question into the mix; we should ask for the world as things will always be pared down and compromised. I would prioritize asking Alvester for his input on where he thinks we should focus our efforts both as it relates to issues that are lower hanging fruit, and also his recommendations for coalition building, whether it's elected/community officials or other larger organizations which share--or are at least willing to support--the SMC vision.

Man, I'm glad we worked on these documents! Yeah between the platform and the suggestions at the end of the listening tour notes I think there is a good amount of material to discuss with Alvester and Joe I think your additions are right on. It's funny, it had been so long since I've really had my head in this that I didn't recall we had gone this in depth with our conversations.

I'd be curious to know what issues Alvester sees in front of him that he feels concerned about, in general, and from a musicians point of view.

Aside from that I'd say it seems like there is a healthy amount of material to get a convo going... not sure what to add other than thanks for being down to do the talking! I know you will represent us well! Looking forward to hearing about it.

Solid, thanks guys. I will be sure to ask him about Coalition building and where he sees us having the most impact, as well as his concerns as a musician... Ill bring up Housing too. Peep the attached article on that subject. It's a pretty good read - some interesting facts I did not know and examples of creative solutions from around the country...

And yeah, it's easy to forget how much brainstorming we have already done on this. Good thing we wrote it down!

Hey guys, this all looks amazing! I've been under the weather and am still trying to kick my big, so I've fallen a tad behind. However, I agree with everything so far. I'll re-read all the documents more carefully. I do love how this is organized. I like that I can reach all the related documents from here through a link. It definitely makes the conversation easier to follow! I already feel like it's not as daunting that I missed these several hours of conversation/updates!

Yeah so far I'm digging the Loomio. Hope you're feeling better today Alba!

Hey guys, I had quite a robust conversation with Alvester on Tuesday. I really like that guy! Attached are my abridged notes.

Didn't get to every topic, but I think it was a good start. Take a look and let me know your thoughts when you get a chance.

Chris, this is all really awesome. Great notes, and I think we have some solid jumping off points here! What do you think should be our next step? Great work on volunteering SMC for the possible testifying portion too, and locating an additional ally in the lawyer.

On a related note, I'm really digging this format for communication. Although there are new functions we are learning to use, I really like the way the information comes to me and how it keeps the threads connected without getting jumbled. Also, I like that we can still use our google drive to keep documents housed, but have them embedded in the threads in a way that we can easily access whatever pertains to the conversation. It feels visually very streamlined, which I like!

Looking forward to next steps with this project!

Seems the area he wants to focus his recommendations on is the labor/wages issue, so my thoughts on next steps are to compile some specific solutions to that and/or develop more compelling solutions to the issues of spaces/venues/housing and subsidies. We should absolutely still schedule a meeting with him for Feb, and he also wants to attend our meetups in the coming months.

Yeah I'm digging Loomio as well!

Beautiful notes man!

Having the connection to the lawyer can be super helpful for a future legal workshop, among other things.

I just learned that Winter Jazzfest pays musicians through the union and therefore everybody gets paid a minimum of $200 per set. Kinda made me want to shed a tear.

Maybe a place to start could be trying to adopt 802 Union pay standards for major festivals taking place in NYC? I am speaking without concrete knowledge of this issue, but, you know those Metrotech Center gigs ain't paying quite on that level, and I suspect that fests like Afropunk or those Food Festival things where there is some coolness cache (or, just exposure) that they sell artists on don't pay this well despite corporate backing. Just a thought. It'd be good to consider the repercussions of a move like this too.

Anyway it's great to have this framework to focus on. Fair wages. Huh! I just spent a week chasing down a promoter for $125. He was a nice guy too who was just spacey, not some evil bastard. I would love to have a career where if I worked more I'd actually get paid more...

Yeah the local music festivals' fair payment of Artists is a great point - especially considering the radius clauses they get away with and the fact that all the Crew are usually union workers. Alvester is in the local 802. I'll see if he has any thoughts on that point.

I guess where we're at now is, we should compile a list of a few suggestions to solve problems/issues with musicians' wages + music spaces and present a refined list as an update at our next general meetup, yeah? Do we have any other suggestions?

Chris, it sounds like you and Alvester are in a sorta ongoing convo, is that right?

Also, I briefly browsed through our Google Drive to see if we had any documents that were a compilation of musicians' problems but couldn't find anything that fit this particular angle... lemme know if I missed something!

I think that's a good plan. Anybody want to make a spreadsheet? I can do it in the next couple days...

Alvester and I did leave it open as an ongoing conversation, but I have not spoken with him since. Perhaps I should lock in a meeting with him in Feb as well?

Nope, I don't think there are other docs on this topic.

Hey gang... getting back into the swing of things here while I'm at my in laws...

Depending on the rapport you guys (Chris and Alvester) have, we may wanna wait to compile some really concrete suggestions before scheduling another meeting, but I bet we can safely have something to offer if you guys talk in late Feb.

It would be good to present a handful of ideas at the next meetup to see what people are most excited by. I started this spreadsheet-- but I think it will take a bunch of work to really narrow down on a well-researched idea to present. Where things are at now, sometimes the problems are hard to define, or sometimes the solutions are unclear. This is far from comprehensive, just a start.

Perhaps focusing on bigger picture stuff might be helpful-- while making this spreadsheet it occurred to me that every time I came up with an idea that would help "the little guy" musicians, I would assume that government would refuse to participate since business is handled off the books. Is that really a given though? Wouldn't supposed advocacy for musicians bypass those who need the most help if we ignore this off the books part of the economy?

Another thing we might need is a snappy answer to the thought that keeps popping into my head, which is, "well, if people WANNA play for free how can we stop them?"

Thanks for sending Nikhil! I thin what you've said makes a lot of sense. I would definitely love to have our next step be to present more concrete ideas, even if these will evolve over time!

This is great. I think all these points require some research to clarify the problems and the possible solutions. I've done some reading but I will do more over the next few weeks. I can dig up some London Souls festival contracts for examples too.
Here is a piece of legislation that passed somewhat recently: https://www.and.co/freelance-faq/legal/what-are-my-rights-under-the-freelance-isnt-free-act

I don't think the gov't will want to help unless there are contracts involved (or at least proof that you tried to get one). Text/email confirmations count as contracts.

To me, the question about playing for free has no snappy answer. It has to be about changing the culture, teaching people to value their skill as labor when dealing with venues and promoters, and not playing social currency games in lieu of fair compensation. I don't think you can stop those that want to play for free, or are privileged to be able to do so, but you can change the narrative that this is acceptable when everyone else is getting paid.

Agree let's work on some well researched solutions to follow up with.

here's an upcoming workshop for freelancers that seems relevant to Nikhil's points re: timely payments / nonpayments:

https://freelancershub.nymediacenter.com/member/event/title/freelancer-know-your-rights

I also put this on the spreadsheet

In addition to sending to Alvester, we should send our suggestions directly to the Office of Nightlife via this link: nightlife@media.nyc.gov.

Another thought I had, is that we should develop some ways to partner with the Office and/or M.O.M.E on behalf of musicians, which we can then bring to Ariel or to her deputies directly, such as:
- Disseminating relevant information to the music community about funding opportunities, resources, lectures
- Developing workshops to be hosted by the city, and educational materials for their website
- Getting M.O.M.E to sponsor or otherwise fund an SMC event (as opposed to, let's say, a beer sponsor)

Just wild ideas while I had a minute...

Added a few thoughts and links to Nikhil's spreadsheet

I followed up with Alvester last week and got the response below, which sheds some pretty interesting light on the winter jazzfest / NYC festival pay issue:

"Yes, 802 negotiated a scale for Winter Jazz Fest that is about 200/musician in most small groups under 6 players. The rate is a bit lower for larger ensembles. It initially started out lower than this but 802 managed to negotiate in gradual raises after a certain number of years. Yes, this is absolutely a great model. It came about from a grass roots effort of Winter Jazz Fest musicians becoming fed up with low rates and pay-to-play happening across the old version of WJF. Once Nate Chinen got wind of the musicians being unhappy about being treated so bad he was planning on writing about it. WJF got wind of this and to hold back the PR embarrassment they turned to 802 to help in negotiating a rate. Hmm... This has me thinking about the pay to play scenarios you mentioned on the phone - I'm thinking this information in the right writer's hands might be good tool for pushing venues to treat musicians more fairly."

Chris thanks for all this follow up and for keeping the line of communication open with Alvester! Essential in narrowing down our focus with our engagement here.

The WJF story from him is kind of heartening to me. I actually think databasing payouts for NYC festivals in the past few years could be a place to start towards establishing some kind of union mandated base pay for similar shows in the future. I bet most artists would be willing to share their info if they felt it would go towards a more equitable pay situation. Obviously this idea needs to be fleshed out but what do you guys think of that direction?

(A possible epilogue to all this is that apparently WJF lost money this year...? Sustainability will have to be considered with increased pay demands)

Looking elsewhere in our spreadsheet... re: minimum wage, I do think including musicians playing at venues should get a minimum of $15 an hour. But how and when to enforce this? And how could this affect other existing gigs?

I also think it'd be sweet for MOME should sponsor SMC workshops, in exchange for using small portions of the workshops to dissminate info about their programs...?

Hey all - I've created this Office of Nightlife Resources & Research doc to house the various studies, articles and any other info sources we might want to reference. Feel free to add or format differently:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16NTtmAhS8k4X9ubU4HHqQcRQXsC39Narx7Bh6u-ISxs/edit?usp=sharing

It's also in the Working Group folder.

-Chris

Wanted to update you all with the below confirmation from the Nightlife Advisory Board (copied from my email):

Hi Christopher,

You are CONFIRMED to present to the Nightlife Advisory Board at:

4:40pm - 5:00pm on Wednesday, March 27 @ University Settlement at Houston Street Center - 273 Bowery, NY, NY 10002
Please read this email in full, thank you.

***Presentation times are approximate, so kindly arrive at least 20 minutes prior to your selected time and bring a photo I.D. for building security. If you can NO LONGER participate at your selected time let us know ASAP, thank you. If you are not the person who will present please provide us with the correct name and email 72 hours before your scheduled presentation time, and include the name/email of any guest who will join you (1 guest maximum).

WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF YOUR PRESENTATION?
Our independent Nightlife Advisory Board was established by the city of New York with local law 178-2017. Its members were appointed by the Mayor and City Council to serve two-year terms. Part of our Board’s mandate is to submit recommendations to the Mayor and City Council on a myriad of issues related to New York City’s nightlife. We anticipate these recommendations will range from regulatory reforms for nightlife businesses, to polices that address residential concerns, to supporting the nightlife experience for marginalized populations, and more. Because of your expertise in a specific field, the information you present will help inform the development of our Board’s recommendations to the Mayor and City Council.

WHAT YOU SHOULD PREPARE:

You will present on a topic related to nightlife in NYC
You will present to our Board for up to (5) minutes
We are aware that stakeholders like you have many ideas and concerns, however, we request that you use this time to very briefly explain your issue(s) and focus your speaking time on actionable solutions to those issues.

We ask that you submit these comments in written form too. You may submit longer written comments and supporting documentation for us to consider.
After you present, members of the Board may ask you questions about your subject matter.

We thank you for your time and participation.

Is step one for us right now defining what our topic will be beyond "wages for musicians?" The proposal in my head is to connect permitting for local music events with demanding a Union type scale -- but again we need to be able to produce some kind of demonstrable proof that the problem exists [data]. Is that the direction we wanna go in with this?

Looks like the best options for us to meet are:

Tuesday, March 12 (tomorrow) 6pm, and
Sunday, March 17 12pm or 2pm

Personally I think it'd be great to meet tomorrow and then have a follow up on Sunday to workshop the presentation, but if you guys can only do one that is understandable.

-Chris

And yes I think zeroing in on the wages issue with evidence from research and info gathered from our community is the best starting point.

Tomorrow works for me. Sunday should be doable too, with a preference for noon.

I can do tomorrow but will be out of town on Sunday. My coop shift ends at 5:45pm so maybe we could meet in Park Slope? Another idea would be at Joe's office if that is an option - I could get there by 6:15ish probably. Let me know! Looking forward

My office or downtown Brooklyn seem like decent options.

Ok everybody - want to say Joe's office tomorrow at 6:15pm, with a tentative follow up next Sunday at noon, location TBD?

Address for tomorrow:
110 William St, New York, NY 10038
7th Floor

I'd say we start with Nikhil's proposal and see where that leads us.

Cool, works for me!

Nice, glad the meeting can happen tomorrow although that conflicts with a gig I got.

Would the goal for tomorrow be to design a proposal first, figure out what data we need, and then try and gather some anecdotal data via email surveys?

For now, since I can't be there tomorrow, here's what I'm thinking. We can outreach to our friends and peers with this kind of question:

"We are taking first steps in gathering data in order to advocate for better artist fees at major NYC music events. Have you played an outdoor festival or other major event in NYC in the past four years-- either municipal events like Summerstage, Celebrate Brooklyn, or private ticketed events ranging from Governor's Ball and Afropunk to smaller outdoor food festivals and so forth? If so, would you be comfortable sharing the artist fee provided by the project, as well as whether you feel the fee was reasonable and appropriate? We are hoping for responses by Saturday 3/16."

I'm able to meet on Sunday so I'm thinking hopefully some of the replies we get will support our thesis that musicians are underpaid and taken for granted during these big events, and that the city should set higher standards for events with corporate or public financial backing, using Winter Jazzfest as an example. This way we can at least have anecdotes for next week's presentation.

Not trying to set the agenda, more just trying to jump start the convo and let you all know what I'm thinking...

Just a quick heads up that the meeting is tonight (Tuesday), not tomorrow.

I like this start, personally, but I think there are a lot of points that would be quicker to hash out in person so I didn't want to start too narrow before meeting.

I also think it'd be great to workshop the kinds of questions that will be asked by the advisory board and what kinds of proposals will be seen as "realistic" to compare with our ideal, which I was hoping Joe might have some insights on.

And yeah I think we should set a target to gather data by 3/16 !

Hey all just text me when you arrive: 773-505-1782

Whoops sorry for spreading disinformation about the date! Unfortunately I can't make it tonight either but I'm looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with, and getting more involved. This is an exciting mental challenge to be sure.

Nikhil - are you still able to make Sunday at noon for a follow up?

Hey folks,

Following up on our great meeting yesterday. We did some solid brainstorming on the wage issue and came up with a rough outline of what our statement will look like, which we will begin drafting this week with the plan to finalize -- and workshop potential questions by the Advisory Board -- at our meeting Sunday.

Here is the rough outline for the statement which I wrote down:
-SMC intro: who we are, who we represent, what we have accomplished.
-Identifying some of the challenges working musicians (and other stakeholders) face within the context of nightlife
- Identifying the shortcomings in how compensation for musicians is viewed and handled in general
-Presenting our actionable solution(s) -- our ideal standard rate ($200/head???) + what we think the Office of Nightlife can be doing to achieve this and better conditions for musicians more generally

Obviously super scrappy but Joe please send your structural outline that you put much more eloquently :), which we can begin drafting from.

Here are some of the key takeaways from my notes:

 - Making a distinction between working professional musicians with regular gigs and "hobbyists" (better word needed). Being specific about which types of venues / musicians we are talking about
 - Acknowledging the challenges faced by venues and other stakeholders in the industry and making it clear we want to work towards a solution that does not unfairly deprive anyone of opportunities
 - Acknowledging that wage data is limited due to the nature of the industry and requesting resources / support from the Office to collect long term data on the issue
 - Noting that part of the problem is in how musicians value themselves, which is part of SMC's work as well
 - Identifying some of the lower hanging fruits for the City such as Permitting for musicians to use public spaces, creating a promotion platform through the City (for example using LinkNYC kiosks to list local shows), and redirecting certain benefits/incentives that might already exist infrastructure-wise toward New Yorker musicians.

I really like the bigger picture "Fair Play Venues NYC" type model we talked about developing. I think there is a lot of potential in that.

I'm excited to make a badass statement and make this advisory board go "Who ARE these guys???"... I also recognize that addressing these issues is not so straightforward and is going to be a work in progress so for now I think it's all right if we are a little scrappy as long as we are sticking to it and focusing on the bigger picture. I appreciate everybody's work and contributions. Looking forward to seeing where this initiative leads!

-Chris

Hey guys - resending this after experimenting with some Loomio formatting tools, since the other one came out looking crazy for some reason. Now I know to use "preview" before sending.

Hey folks,

Following up on our great meeting yesterday. We did some solid brainstorming on the wage issue and came up with a rough outline of what our statement will look like, which we will begin drafting this week with the plan to finalize -- and workshop potential questions by the Advisory Board -- at our meeting Sunday.

Here is the rough outline for the statement which I wrote down:

• SMC intro: who we are, who we represent, what we have accomplished.
• Identifying some of the challenges working musicians face within the context of nightlife
• Identifying the shortcomings in how compensation for musicians is viewed and handled in general
• Presenting our actionable solution(s) -- our ideal standard rate ($200/head???) + what we think the Office of Nightlife can be doing to achieve this and better conditions for musicians more generally

Obviously super scrappy but Joe please send your structural outline that you put much more eloquently :), which we can begin drafting from.

Here are some of the key takeaways from my notes:

• Making a distinction between working musicians with regular gigs and "hobbyists" (better word needed). Being specific about which types of venues / musicians we are talking about
• Acknowledging the challenges faced by venues and other stakeholders in the industry and making it clear we want to work towards a solution that does not unfairly deprive anyone of opportunities
• Acknowledging that wage data is limited due to the nature of the industry and requesting resources / support from the Office to collect long term data on the issue
• Noting that part of the problem is in how musicians value themselves, which is part of SMC's work as well
• Identifying some of the lower hanging fruits for the City such as Permitting for musicians to use public spaces, creating a promotion platform through the City (such as using LinkNYC kiosks to list local shows), and redirecting certain benefits/incentives that might already exist infrastructure-wise toward New Yorker musicians.

I really like the bigger picture "Fair Play Venues NYC" type model we talked about developing. I think there is a lot of potential in that.

I'm excited to make a badass statement and make this advisory board go "who are these guys???"... I also recognize that addressing these issues is not so straightforward and is going to be a work in progress so for now I think it's all right if we are a little scrappy as long as we are sticking to it and focusing on the bigger picture. I appreciate everybody's work and contributions. Looking forward to seeing where this initiative leads!

-Chris

Thanks for posting this Chris, this is great. Wish I could have been at the meeting! Looking over the info here, I dig the point of view of what we are arriving at-- it's broad in a good way I think. I suspect I know less about the nature of the meeting we will be presenting in than anyone here, but I look forward to being filled in about that on Sunday. Noon works for me.

Is the "hobbyist" distinction is between ppl who depend on their nightlife music work to make a living and those who don't? (I guess there are still some lines to draw there)

Also, any homework for us between now and Sunday?

One of the ways we discussed making that distinction was by number of shows/year. So you would qualify if you are a New York resident that plays over x/shows per year. Totally up for debate