The ongoing closed source tools vs open source tools debate (yawn)

We have also been using Cryptpad a lot. @Oli SB looks like you did run into some limitations. Are those serious problems for you? Have not been serious problems for us, altho I also keep some google docs alive from the past and when other people start them. And thanks @Danyl Strype for pushing back against google docs a bit. They are one of the main perpetrators of surveillance capitalism.

@Oli SB No offence taken. I have fond memories of our time in London, including drinks at the Faltering Fullback. I've taken some time before responding to this, in the hopes I can make my points without the risk of friendly fire ; )

I too have concerns about Google. That's why I set up Open Web Systems

Great work! I hadn't caught up with that. A group of us are working on a similar cooperative project in Aotearoa to offer fediverse hosting as a service.

NextCloud and other open source tools just don't have the functionality of some of the proprietary tools (yet) and - rather than being a zealot over my open source ideals, I prefer to take a pragmatic approach in order to collaborate as effectively as possible with the widest number of people as possible.

A decade ago, this was a perfectly reasonable position to take. But since then a number of things have changed the landscape, and attitudes towards DataFarming have hardened. These include;

• The exposure of the way various DataFarms were used to manipulate people in the lead up to the 2016 US election and the Brexit campaign (Cambridge Analytica etc)

• The release of The Social Dilemma documentary which explains how this worked, in a way the public can grasp more easily

• Regulators making serious attempts to reign in the DataFarmers, and break up their oligopolies, from the GDPR to the DMA

• The purchase of Titter and and its rapid enshittification

• A number of platforms, including Titter and Reddit, closing down the APIs that were available to third-party apps

Given all this, for many of us, continuing to use platforms controlled by known DataFarmers for ethical tech work is akin to collaborating with an occupying army. Even when no Free Code tools exist that do the same job, there's always another way.

I can already see several problems [with CryptPad]

A number of these have already been addressed by comments on the pad. Which points to the fact that many of the perceived shortcomings of ethical tech tools are in fact a lack of familiarity with their current state. One way to fix this, as your experiment with this pad shows, is to use them more.

I'm not asking anyone to work "unpaid work"!

You're not offering to pay, and I don't think you're saying that taking time to document our hard-won knowledge and experience to help you with your research isn't "work". Are you?

My point here was that if you are paying someone for work, you have a right to dictate which tools and platforms they use. In a collaborative space, that ought to be a shared decision. One that reflects the values and priorities of the collaborators.

the PDF which Billy made... is already out of date

No doubt. But it did at least give me the context I needed to make some contribution, rather than none. Was that not worth the few minutes it took Billy to make and post the PDF?

With warm wishes from London to you in New Zealand - or wherever you are these days :)

Back at you :) I am indeed back in Aotearoa, since 2020, due to China closing their borders while we were back home for a holiday. This was disruptive, as you might imagine, but turned out to be a blessing in disguise.

Dear @Danyl Strype,

Please don't get upset. I'm sorry if any of my remarks triggered you ... Perhaps I should not have been so flippant ... but as someone I think I know well - and have enjoyed sharing beers with (remember the Faltering Fullback, with you and your lovely wife?) I thought you would get where I am coming from...

Of course, I too have concerns about Google. That's why I set up Open Web Systems which provides secure, open source, surveillance-free email and collaborative tools, powered by renewable energy...

But the fact is NextCloud and other open source tools just don't have the functionality of some of the proprietary tools (yet) and - rather than being a zealot over my open source ideals, I prefer to take a pragmatic approach in order to collaborate as effectively as possible with the widest number of people as possible.

And, just for clarity, I'm not asking anyone to work "unpaid work"! This is a collaborative space... nobody has to do anything they don't want to...

BTW, the PDF which Billy made (thanks Billy!) is already out of date, as it doesn't include the latest changes - hence why that didn't seem like a good plan to me... (or copying and pasting repetitively).

Maybe next time I will try another tool, like CryptPad, as you suggested. To test it out I made this doc, but I can already see several problems https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/edit/hyXElI7tC4jCR-cUe04gY2ll/ (listed in the pad) but I live in hopes that one day open source will catch up and supersede the proprietary tools.

Meanwhile I will continue to dedicate my efforts to collaborative efforts that move things forward in that direction...

With warm wishes from London to you in New Zealand - or wherever you are these days :)

Oli

@Billy Smith Thanks for that, I'll have a look.

@Danyl Strype

Here's a pdf copy of the document so far.

Date and time as of the title. :D

@Billy Smith

When we get a doc-writing system, that does what we need as well as GoogleDocs, then we can transfer the conversations over there.

When I can read the discussion document without running nonfree JS from Goggle, I will happily share my feedback here on Loomio. Until then, I will do what Graham suggests, and walk on.

Remember that the ( yes, problematic ) originator of the GCC used proprietary tools to create the GCC, as that was what was available at the time, but he was able to use those proprietary tools to create unencumbered tools, which is why we are able to have this conversation today. :D

When we get a doc-writing system, that does what we need as well as GoogleDocs, then we can transfer the conversations over there. :D

In the meantime, let's work on getting what we need. :D

@Graham

I don't think that Oli is asking for unpaid work - he's seeking people's opinions and input,

... without offering to pay for it. Which means being fussy and aggressive about how those opinions and input are offered is a bit on the nose.

we need to cut each a bit of slack, and cooperate

Agreed. For example, doing a simple cut'n'paste of a discussion document, as requested.

If we're talking about what's fair (and proportionate) I think this post is neither. I don't think that Oli is asking for unpaid work - he's seeking people's opinions and input, and if anyone doesn't like the approach he's taking they are absolutely free to walk on. We're all here because we're all interested in changing things for the better. If we're going to do that we need to cut each a bit of slack, and cooperate.

@Oli SB

please don't derail other threads by bringing up this age old debate in other places

This really isn't a fair comment.

You @mentioned me to ask for my feedback on federated open source tools. But the only context you gave was a GoggleDoc that I can't even read without running proprietary JavaScript from one of the world's biggest DataFarming corporations. If you want (unpaid) consultation from software freedom activists, why choose that as your collaboration tool?

Especially, when there are plenty of other options. For example, I suggested putting a copy of the initial discussion document on the GoggleDoc in the context box of the Loomio thread where the discussion is taking place (FYI it could be updated from time-to-time as the offsite version evolves). But it seems you're not even willing to consider it.

Then, when I pointed out the inconsistency of asking for feedback on federated open source tools using centralised proprietary tools (via the McDonalds analogy), you accused me of "conspiracy theory". Why are you so aggressively committed to using collabaration tools controlled by our corporate opponents?

TBH I wouldn't do paid consultation work if it meant being subjected to patronising and disrespectful comments like this. Why do you think this is an appropriate way to speak to people you're asking to work for you unpaid?