I have grave fears about the internet party. Least of all their leader doesn't know how the internet works.

I have no objection against not raising any objection. As for our relationship with IP/Mana we don't have to show approval or disapproval, I think we can be the conscience of Mana.Com if they do something 'good' we praise them, if they do something we don't like we condemn that action.

I strenuously object to us ever entering into personality politics and insulting members of any other party, we should always aim to be as open to approach as possible.

We will need allies and partnerships to survive once we are set up properly, we should be laying the groundwork for our 2017 campaign.

@andrewmcpherson "...their leader doesn't know how the internet works."

Can you cite a source for that? I'd really like to know how much to trust them, considering they're my vote after this party.

@andrewmcpherson Even if that is true it is not a reason to object to the Party joining PPI as an observer. Laila Harré does not have to be a technical expert, she needs to be a leader. She can draw on a wealth of technical expertise within the party.

I originally abstained, but with all the new info coming out with their merger and new leader, I now think they've got next to no connection to the pirate movement, even though they'd like to claim otherwise. And that they are "Internet" Party in name only, making a mockery of the name really and the word "Internet" in it.

Even so.... I don't think I'd go so far as changing my vote to block, like @hubatmcjuhes did beforehand, though I might come close to that. As despite all that, I struggle to then leap to the conclusion we should meddle with others and actively seek to block their entry.

However, it still boggles my mind as to why we should have a resolution about this beforehand. Unless specifically asked by PPI.

@petercummuskey hey! Didn't connect two and two together that you're here too. :-) We've briefly met before, such as at the Crucible games.

Some in the leaders in the international Pirate movement are interested in working with other organisations such as allied parties and NGOs. I am involved in these discussions. One of these conversations led to this proposal. If it is positive then a direct request to PPNZ might well be made.

So, the election is over, and neither Mana nor Internet seem interested in continuing their marriage of convenience. Apparently DotCom is off to the US to start an Internet Party there. For now, the Internet Party still exists, and there is still plenty of activity of their Loomio group. Just recently there has been a discussion on whether to change the party name, and distance themselves somewhat from DotCom and the Internet Mana image:
https://internet-party.loomio.org/d/xL4fZ2BE/should-we-change-the-name-of-the-internet-party-to-something-else

So we have an active core of Internet Party activists looking for a new identity, and a skeleton crew of Pirate Party activists looking for more activists. What if we could convince a supermajority of the active Internet Party members that they want to be a Pirate Party? Is there some way to bring the two together? If so, what would be our bottom lines?

Kim Dotcom can't go to the USA, as he would be sent through a kangaroo court process at the instigation of the MPAA.
I have a contact who was active in the Wellington area of the Internet Party, and a contact in the Mana party in Wellington.
From what I can tell the Mana party has enough members to survive as a political force, but the Internet Party is in complete disorder and many members would be open to joining our party in light of the obvious fact that Kim Dotcom is probably going to win his court case in New Zealand before 2017, which would negate his political desires.

Our bottom lines should be those of the Pirate Wheel as mentioned by Rick Falkvinge , and those key policies which have been actively supported by the membership for years now.

I propose that our common policies are :
We want UBI to replace social welfare, a Transaction Tax, copyright for commercial uses only for 10 years, online secure voting, 10 year passports available online, student debt cancelled, drug legalisation of Marijuana and Ecstasy (most prefer pharmacy sales), Universal Fibre Access (suggest where grid electricity wires are, Fibre must be available), Public media content in apps; online; on TV & Radio, Both parliament and citizens referendums allowed to veto Treaties, Voting age between 16 and 80 only, Remove perks tax; secondary tax; luxury tax and other discriminatory taxes, Free tertiary education, $5 maximum prescription fees, $1 medicine and pill fees upto $100 per family per year (free after that), Govt Transparency, Climate Change Regulatory Impact bill, Loan Shark and Predatory Sales Trucks reform, Social Housing Developer Incentives, Relocation from Auckland for public sector and private sector incentives, Waikato to Auckland public transport improved, Railway services restored to gisbourne, Passenger Railway services to Dunedin restored, Freight Climate Change impact levy...

There may be others which I am sure are not contentious matters of personal opinion (In recognition of our disagreement on other topics recently @strypey ) which should prove worthwhile proposals for policy.

The Internet Party has produced some very interesting discussions with very respectable outcomes in their incubator. I would be more than happy if we would like to invite all IP members to our discussions (with or without PP membership) as long as they agree with our (yet to decide upon) Code of Conduct and are serious about a bottom-up party architecture.

I agree that the pirate wheel could be a good tool to familiarise with the pirate mindset.

And I am very impressed by the bundle of positions you, @andrewmcpherson , bring up. Most of them I have never seen discussed in the realm of PPNZ, but I can agree with the direction of nearly all of them (excluding online voting which I understand is technically impossible to make safe); your suggested voting age that I would prefer to be from birth to death; and tax reform that would be done on a much broader, much more radical level and cannot possibly be done without a land tax.

All these things should be discussed separately in their own thread, though. So, with all those good ideas, you should start discussions more frequently, please.

There have been some important discussions recently which I find really important topics as well and I think are perfectly fine to discuss further even if we know that not each and every single Pirate is in support of those. Let's embrace diversity.

1. Online voting is entirely possible to make safe @hubatmcjuhes I think I haven't shared a copy of my example "Rainstorm" system that connects via RealMe and visual OTP cryptography with you yet.

2. The voting age between 16 and 80 was suggested by Gareth Morgan for a youth orientated party to adopt in order to prevent excessive influence of those who may no longer have the facilities to make a judgement rationally, rather than the present self-serving largess that comes from the pensioner dominated New Zealand First.

3. A land tax can only be viewed as usury in the context of a transactions tax on everything. There should be no double taxation when the budget surplus of my proposed transactions tax is hundreds of billions each year after the national debt is repaid in full.

I should note that the proposal for voting age is based around a perception of when people are usually capable of rational decisions, such as driving age.
I would agree that a maximum voting age of 80 would be reasonable if we consider the prevalence of dementia and alzheimers etc. that severely impact cognitive abilities around that age, so a work-around maybe to introduce a free medical test to prove voters are competent from age 80.
This would assist the health system and improve the voting system from being influenced by caregivers to the elderly.

Nice one @andrewmcpherson

I'm keen for alliances and collaboration of all kinds, to promote reciprocity and interconnectivity, and to continue the advancement and progress of civilisation.

Personally keen to start a new brand, something such as "The Matrix Party", which I feel pretty much philosophically covers everything we're trying to change and achieve in the world.

Btw, I'm not a PPNZ member, though I have been involved in IP, and just found this space after a bit of recon across Loomio, and it's pretty cool what you've all got going on here.

We basically need to keep the brand pirate party to maintain our international movement contacts @williamasiata if we were not a global political movement, then we would have that option though.

@williamasiata It's great to have you here. You don't need to be a formal PPNZ member to be part of our community unless you want voting rights in all corners of the party. Mind you: it's cheap to become one and we have no problems with memberships in multiple parties.

I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of us is very much agreeing with most policies the Internet Party came up with, but we have problems with the top-down architecture of the organisation. PPNZ is all about experimenting with a radical bottom-up approach.

We are seeking alliances and collaboration of all kinds as well, so please feel free to inspire and challenge us and our discussions.

@andrewmcpherson Please spawn new discussions for new upcoming issues. To repeat myself:

All these things should be discussed separately in their own thread, though. So, with all those good ideas, you should start discussions more frequently, please.

@andrewmcpherson has presented a lot of important potential policy areas, but I agree with @hubatmcjuhes that they need their own discussions. Let's stay on topic.

Let me clarify what I mean by "bottom lines". They are the minimum, non-negiotable core values, practices, and policies that define the party's identity as a collective. For example, in any proposed merger between the PP and IP, our bottom lines might be:
* the Pirate Party name, linking us to the international PP movement
* our core values as defined by the Pirate Wheel, although nuts and bots policy details may be negotiable, particularly timeframes and implementation
* bottom-up, deep democracy decision-making structure (so no special Board positions for anyone, including KDC)

Party building is about building relationships, and building consensus. Obviously, each of us currently in PPNZ could come up with our own shopping list of every policy we personally support ( know I could), and those lists would all be overlapping but different. No doubt the same would be true for IP members. No alliance is possible, or even a party, if we demand that every member support every one of a long list of our own preferred policies.

An update on the international situation. PPI looks to be very much in the control of a faction of PPDE and will be of little use to the Party outside of Northern Europe. The only faint hope is that PPDE will change its international coordinators.

New Pirate International (pirateint.org) suddenly changed from a community based platform to an administrated one with no warning. That was not liked and it is now practically dead in the water. It might revive later on but the initial burst of enthusiasm has been lost.

The Pirate Times is going well although under attack from the PPI Board.

The Think Tank project is going into the marketing phase so it will not be in the news very much just now.

I have written up a draft for a proposal to present to the membership of the Internet Party. It firstly asks for a relationship of cooperation between the two parties, and secondly proposes formal negotiations to consider a merger:
http://piratepad.net/NXlQLZ514J

Please feel free to modify the proposal draft as appropriate. If no objections to the idea, or the text, are expressed before the proposal closes on Friday, I will present the text to the IP membership early next week. I'm in touch with IP membership secretary to discuss the best way to do this.

IP membership sec confirms that opening a Loomio discussion is the way to go.

Is there anything that would prevent us from disusing this in public?

Discussion has been created on Internet Incubator here:
https://www.loomio.org/d/ovIq5JsB/a-discussion-starter-from-the-active-membership-of-the-pirate-party-of-nz

Thanks for the modifications to the text. Suspect this could probably have been done using the Context Box, but can see the benefits of PiratePad for documents which are more complex, more controversial, or more long-term.

I am now chairman if Pirate Parties International. Whatever effect that will have on a merger - I don't know.

Congratulations @andrewreitemeyer . I'm wondering if it was time I started networking more at the global level too. Many of the problems we work on with surveillance, privatisation, TPP, TISA etc, as well as some environmental problems like transitioning off fossil fuels, are globalized problems which need globally inter-connected campaigns.

It would make sense - we could examine regional networking as well. Asia and Pacific based activists and parties who share problems with us.

It has been confirmed - I am on from 09:00 t0 09:40 - the slot last week was only 15 minutes. So I have plenty of time to talk about PPNZ :)

Coming back to the IP/ Pirates merger suggestion, Discussion seemed to be going well, so I put up a proposal for a federated meta-party including both parties, to test the waters. Suddenly there seemed to be some blockers, a lot of whom appear to be Exec members. These same people seem to be putting a lot of pressure on members to move discussions to a forum on their new website, which only has discussion threads, no capacity for making proposals or taking and modifying positions on them. Can't help but think this seems like step backwards for the IP, and a lot of IP members are still active on the Loomio group. Will be interested to see how the conversation progresses from here.

They are suddenly active on social media and are producing some info graphics - some of which are quite useful. They are also orgainsing an online GA.. It would seem they are trying to self resurect.

I warn anybody to steer clear of their oligarchical and megalomaniac executive until I am again part of Internet Party. I am for all intent and purposes a democratically elected executive member of the Internet Party in exile as a result of their executive disfunction, and I failed to remove Kim Dot Com, hold Fred Look to his word, or remedy the personal attacks against members promoting original ideas. I supported InternetMana rather than the Internet Party, but honesty and transparency was still lacking in the executive then. Background at theoccupyparty.wordpress.com

Tough stuff huh James. Trying to bootstrap an AGM to elect new exec. There was obviously a lot of disfunction in the social dynamics of the exec, and I think the best thing we can do atm is have faith in the exec as they work to rebuild the digital infrastructure to effectively accommodate mass participation. No point in pointing fingers at what happened even though it sucked, rather to learn from those events in developing a better administrative structure that mitigates the chance of what happened from happening again. I also think the democratic process used to elect the current exec was flawed.

Strypey you've been nominated and endorsed for exec and if you receive one more endorsement and accept your nomination, you'll be one of our choices come the AGM.

In such a position you could help bring some pirate values to IP.

It sucks dealing with all the convoluted spiraling inward focused social crap, but as is life. I think key is learning the social skills necessary to achieve the true team dynamic and excel at moving through the stages.

Forming, storming, norming, performing ( look it up)

Hi William, we shouldn't have to accommodate mass participation. We should look force the democratically elected executive to follow their own rules. I fear that the constitution will attempt to be changed to make it even harder for a participatory democracy to function (note, I attended executive meetings and was for more transparency not less). The Internet Party as it stands is an oligarchy and an old guard. A lot may happen in the following months. Strypey seems to have lots of energy, but when the executive is this dysfunctional that they won't acknowledge my contribution or the votes of those that elected me to represent them, I have very little interest in KDC or his puppets and the whole lot of them should go this time round.

Hi @pilotfever, good to see you around here. :-)

The members of the Pirate Party think very highly of the discussions and the developed positions in the IP. We are under the impression that the membership of he IP and PPNZ are sharing the same values and principles and are herefore walking on the same common grounds.

Hence there have been discussions why - as the small organisation that we are - we should not simply dissolve and all become members of the IP instead.

Our findings where that we cannot do that because the IP is not only their membership but also an organisational structure, which, unfortunately, in the current form we cannot accept. While the membership is cleary progressive, the organisation is modelled as a radical-conservative top-down structure (if not authoritarian even).
The idea of a board that maintains unelected seats guaranteed to one particular person or whoever this one person chooses to appoint is outrageous. [* see footnote]

We have decided to go the other way and try to resurect in form of a radically progressive organisational structure. We want to experiment with a truely grass-rooty bottom-up approach that doesn't even need to have a board at all.
The member is root. 3 members make a sub-system. The most convincing positions make it to the top, for the sole reason that they are convincing.

We hope that our progressive model, once used by a wider range of people, can be offered to be adopted by organisations like the IP, or at least that our organisation can work as an alternative deliberation platform for those discussions and policies that are not embraced by the attention of the board of the IP.

[* footnote] On a personal note: For me, the fact that it is Kim Schmitz, aka Kimble, aka KDC, who is seated on the parties' throne, makes it so much worse. I originate from Germany and have seen how each and every persons life of whom has ever faithfully interacted with Kim Schmitz turned to sh*t since the early 80'th to today without exception.

@williamasiata I wish you all much luck. If you people can make the IP work for you so that the fine membership engages again, then that will be helpful for all progressive forces in the country and much appreciated.

It's just that I am sceptical that the party could possibly get rid of Kim Schmitz; and that I fear that there is no future with him as the King. I attribute to him the mythical powers of King Midas.

I have demonstrated how the IP Exec broke their own constitutional rules, by ejecting an elected Exec member without calling a proper SGM of the membership. In response, the Secretary has resorted to smears and threats. It's now very clear to me that the Pirates can't consider a merger with the IP under the current Exec. We can re-evaluate, and consider whether to propose formal talks, once they have had their AGM and we see who gets elected. In the meantime, let's get on with building the new networked Pirate Party!

I have just read through that thread. You, @strypey, made a pretty good point there. Some fine IP members have been around and surely have recognized what game a few of them where playing. I really hope they get things straight at and after their AGM. Let's hope for the best.

Yes, well whatever happens, in the end I don't think that any particular group will ever be the be all or end all in achieving social change. There will always be room to innovate and create something new, disrupt the status quo and make things obsolete. Great things are brewing everywhere, keep tuned on life, don't worry about the small things, nor the "parties". I am a human being and that is all I need to assert my existence alongside everyone. 😉

I agree with what you say William, but maintaining a plethora of tiny political parties who have no chance of being elected drains the limited time and energy people have to participate in politics into petty personal power struggles. It's only worth putting time and energy into a political party if you actually intend to try to get elected to parliament, which under our current system requires attracting enough active members, supporters, and voter to get past the 5% threshold (or win an electorate). That means its important work to try to figure out what kind of vehicle could attract that critical mass of support, and I've been encouraged by the conversations with Pirates, New Economics, Cannabis Party, even some IP members, and others, about the vision of a "Commons Party", whether or not it uses that name, that federates the activists and policies of a number of smaller parties.

We can still maintain a cordial relationship with them and cooperate where sensible and practical. We can also revisit the merger idea in the future.

Agreed

In any case I think every group should take a leg out of the Kurdish PYD's notebook.
Regardless of what parliament decides to do, the need to build up local people's grassroot democratic assemblies that meet up on a regular basis. Baha'is already in the midst of working towards this, however it has the contemporary stigma of being categorized as based on "religious" spiritualisationism.
Northern Syria ideology:

@williamasiata makes some interesting points, and I thoroughly endorse the idea of deep democracy based on regular, open local assemblies. This is a model that is being used in some Latin American countries too.

I just want to say that my experience on the IP Loomio group made me appreciate afresh the civil engagement style and commitment to principles of the NZ Pirates. Even @davidpeterson - with whom I've disagreed the most over this and that - clearly bases his comments on his principles, and is committed to transparent and democratic governance of the party and the country (even if we disagree at time about what this looks like in practice ;) ). Thanks heaps everyone, keep up the good work.

I am still open to working constructively with the IP and its members, where possible, especially on local activities. However, after learning that the all-powerful Party Secretary position is selected (by the Party Founder), not elected by the membership, and seeing that the same person still holds that position, despite have very clearly abused his power in ejecting a Board member from the Board, I have formally resigned my membership of the IP. As such, I am formally ending my role as temporary Pirates delegate to the IP. If Pirates think such a role is still needed (I can see benefits), volunteers are welcome.

I believe one of the best things that we could do right now is begin working to bring every street, neighbourhood, and township together in a regular open, inclusive, integrative forum. As Bernie says, to begin building the grassroots movement of the people, of the neighbours, regardless of what the government, party's, etc. are doing. This will eventually lead to transformation in all other fields.

https://www.loomio.org/d/o2pwlGv9/community-development-at-the-roots-of-society-in-nz

Does anybody know something about the current state of the Internet Party and what Kim Schmitz (aka Kim Dot Com) role in the board and in the constitution is currently?

They still exist and as far as I know there has been no change to the constitution. There is no party leader or president They had an election for board members in September and it looks like there were not enough candidates to fill vacant positions.

Hi Guys.
KDC & the internet party are dead. Talked to the team in the last couple of weeks to discuss a range of matters about next year's election. This is one of the things I raised.

As for PPNZ.
I am still very keen to make a difference if not impact in next year's election.
The PPNZ to appeals to me purely from a "Brand," perspective, its marketable appeal and the openness of the thinking it allows. Some I might not agree with but in general an engaged public is crucial, disempowerment of Corporatisation & Globalisation(or at least reign it in), and fundamentally, the right to associate with whomever you want whether that be on a personal level, publically or professionally, internationally.
NZ's endemic political make-up;

Because kiwis are deeply entrenched ideologically-wise in a right-wing (both Lab/Nats) & conservative outlook. It has been difficult for the populace to grasp the concept of MMP still! The only party & their voters that gets it is the Greens.

Having a quick read of PPNZ comments posted on the PPNZ site has been as interesting and somewhat frustrating but also enlightening at the same time. Why do I say this?
For many years I have actively been involved with in social issues as a professional and voluntarily too. I still am.
Watching and participating in the communities that are and have being disenfranchised by this current Government, the wider economic, social problems & the general missguided (deliberate or not) political decision making. I'm in the camp of change is needed before it is too late.

Hence my interest in a movement that can achieve this next year.

A bit of background;
I'm Maaori. Involved in my iwi's current Treaty Settlement, self-employed(Contracted too the iwi) and wear titles such as Treasurer of my Marae, Committee member of a Maaori Health NGO for the disabled, Panelist/Advisor for Ak Council Ed-Employment in Ak, mainly in Manukau Southern Initiative and a whole bunch of other organisations, mostly in a voluntary capacity.

Actively involved with a union which I was one of a small group that got Unite Union up and running. Proud of its achievements and its relentless support for workers rights as well as the official/unofficial affiliate organisations.

And a whole bunch more ....

Anyway, I hope this all makes sense and I am always willing to listen to another's perspective ... whether I like it or not! Haha!

Happy to communicate online. Prefer Kanohi ki te kanohi (face to face) but, online will do for now.

PS: Typo's ect ... apologies! Everything is a draft until its not in my book! :)

Denny or DenPaoa on twitter!