Discussion: Buckets in deficit/in the red
Is it OK for personal buckets to be in the red? If so, what are the conditions in which having a deficit bucket is OK? What are the risks/flow on for the organisation of people having buckets in deficit? How much ($) is it OK to be in the red for? How long can people be in the red for? How many people (and for how long and to what $) can the organistion support in the red? What happens if someone leaves the org and their bucket is in deficit? What could we have in place to support people to not go into red with their bucket?
Michaela Kennedy Sun 19 Aug 2018 8:37AM
My thoughts - each time a person goes into the red or looks like they will go into the red based on their usual fortnightly expenses, a conversation needs to be had. Evidence of money coming in or invoices to be sent must be given to the person having this conversation. I don't believe we can hold too many buckets in the red without knowledge and evidence that these funds will be re-couped / re-paid. These conversations need to be documented and stored in the person's file. I believe this needs to be the coaches responsibility, but not sure who when it is a coach or board member. Much needed conversation, thank you.
Jason Emmins Sun 19 Aug 2018 1:21PM
Its not something that sits comfortable with me at all, but there could be very easy/simple solutions..... but like the suggestions by Michaela. Some thoughts/brain dump:
Is there a mechanism where this can be identified early (i.e. the individual will not meets its next 2 pay run obligations/payments) from a payroll/finance perspective or within our accounting system?
Once its identified, who is the best person to have this conversation?
What arrangements could be put into place so the bucket does not go into the red and how is this then documented (and then who is responsible for following it up)?
If the individual leaves before paying the red amount back- would this constitute a bad debt (my initial thinking is it would not as we would not have an invoice or anything to support the transaction).
If these are documented in an individuals file, who has access to these and where are they stored (it sounds like a bit of a HR file)?
In terms of length of time in red, I would suggest that it be for as short of a time frame as possible (i.e. one month).
I would also presume the board has an oversight of this and would capture this in a risk area/matrix/action plan?
Are there any other self managing organisations that work like us who manage this area that we know of and could possibly ask for some advice? Something that is coming to my mind is the Results Based Accountability (RBA) framework for some reason- not sure why but its coming to mind?
[deactivated account] Sun 19 Aug 2018 6:56PM
Personally, I would not allow my bucket to go into the red.......if there is no money , I would not expect to be paid.
The Cash report lets people know how much is in their bucket-I think there is some learning here around how to read the reports-the info is there.
I think that we could have some kind of statement like: 'It is your responsibility to monitor your bucket via the cash and accrual reports and ensure that you are operating with a credit balance. If there are circumstances that indicate that your bucket may go into deficit, you need to.: (need a process here)......'
'There are limited circumstances in which Jeder acknowledge that a deficit bucket may be accepatable for a short period of time (eg invoices have been issued and payment not yet received, ..........any others....maybe we could list here some reality based examples so we know what we are considering)'
Re conversations, I think that some of these convesrations happen verbally so there is no record. Maybe we need some kind of template that is a request to draw on a deficit bucket. This could capture the ask, the reason and a time frame for when it would go back into credit.
We dont have individual files, do we?
The biggest question for me is who gives the Ok for this to happen? eg the board, a coach, the admin person doing payroll or the individual? We need to consider that this is often dicsovered on payroll day so it needs to be a quick to access process. and then who is reponsbile if it goes awry?
Michelle Dunscombe Thu 23 Aug 2018 7:52AM
@kerry63 each Jeder member should have a file that contains their PAYG details, police & WWC checks. I agree there needs to be process of who has the conversation with the individual, who approves and how we track.
[deactivated account] Thu 23 Aug 2018 8:39AM
@michelledunscombe do you mean 'should' as in that it is something that we need to do or 'should' as in it should be there somewhere?
Michelle Dunscombe Thu 23 Aug 2018 8:46AM
@kerry63 I believe they exist in dropbox. @sara50 will know where they are?
Lyb Makin Tue 21 Aug 2018 2:48AM
I think there needs to be a general rule that buckets do not go into the red, and that each person is supported to develop a way to make sure they don't end up in the red (e.g. personal budgeting) - or perhaps others can share how they self-manage their buckets? However, when / if it does happen, there is a process - i.e. a conversation and agreed way forward (it may be as simple as waiting for an invoice to be paid, it may not). I think that either the coach has this conversation, but if it is a coach or Board member, then that person elect another coach or Board member to talk it through with... And then this is an agreed process that is set out in the Handbook. I like Kerry's suggested wording above. Kerry has another question around who approves someone going into the red? The Board? As a Board member, I'm not clear on when it might be okay for someone to go into the red - in my perspective, I could really only approve this on a case by case basis and when there is a clear way forward that has been agreed to...
[deactivated account] Thu 23 Aug 2018 9:00AM
Lets have a brain storm of some example of the circumstances in which it might be OK to go into the red.
Lynn Lennon Fri 24 Aug 2018 2:39AM
eg bucket in red. A Cossie currently has a bucket in the red and has asked for the AoH to be paid from their bucket, sending it further DR (I don't know the exact amount). In this scenario, being a Jeder function, is to OK to allow the member to do this, do we require advice on timeframe of this being rectified, do we have a blanket ruling that once in the red no further expenditure can be added until such time as it is addressed? As yet I haven't processed this request.
Michelle Dunscombe Tue 28 Aug 2018 12:55PM
I think I tend to agree with Kerry with the caveat that if they leave Jeder with their bucket in the red it has to be paid back.
[deactivated account] Fri 24 Aug 2018 3:34AM
We dont have clarity on this discussion as yet. We don't want to discourage people from attending AoH as it is a requirement of membership. This one feels OK to me, and we still need to have some more input into the conversation around keeping your bucket green for everyone.
Rachael Eyles Tue 28 Aug 2018 11:53PM
Okay I have been avoiding this conversation as I am some one who has been in the red due to circumstances as mentioned by Kerry (waiting on payments and other circumstances over the past 12 months). I believe no one wants to be in this circumstance and it does create high anxiety for people and as a Collective we need to be aware of how many people are privy to this information (a person in the red) - even though we are striving for transparency we also need to respect peoples confidentiality and wishes as to who is involved (I am aware that the Board, Finance and some Coaches (Cos choice) know where people's buckets are, but who else? as this is discussed at induction)
I can only speak from the Cos space and I am aware as Coaches we do have in depth conversations about buckets, wages etc at commencement, we have also introduced weekly processing of claims to assist with keeping peoples buckets topped up.
A recent conversation also flagged for me that people may not be aware of exact amounts of Super and Tax that they pay. (This comment may need to go else where).
In regards to a person leaving Jeder if their bucket is in the red, yes I agree that they need to pay it back.
Lyb Makin Wed 10 Oct 2018 10:10AM
Agree with Rachel - support is crucial (.e.g Kerry has developed a table to show how much needs to be covered for tax, super, LSL etc). There needs to be some form of confidential process for resolving bucket situations with current members, and also perhaps something in an employment contract / enterprise agreement that makes it clear that someone that leaves Jeder needs to pay back any amount owing, back to the admin bucket.
Jason Emmins Thu 11 Oct 2018 7:46AM
Yes, totally agree we need to support anyone sensitively should their bucket go into the red, and this is what we have discussed in the Jedi around buckets going into the red. I was of the belief that we now don't have anyone going into the red? Is this not the case?
In terms of the enterprise agreement, there has been some previous discussion about this (I think from the last Hunter Gathering or the one in Collaroy- I think @yvonne7 and @cecilyspradbrow opened the conversation (but I will need to go back and look at the harvest again to make sure).
Yvonne Mon 15 Oct 2018 12:15AM
I believe that there needs to be clearer @ terms of Engagement @ / Contracts first , before we can look at / consider an Enterprise Agreement...we need to link the Terms / Contract to an award first...
Lyb Makin Mon 15 Oct 2018 6:22AM
@jasonemmins - I think the issue is currently one of needing a clear policy that applies to everyone equally, not that there is any issue currently driving this conversation. Does anyone feel this topic is ripe for a proposal about some wording on this topic for the $Handbook?
[deactivated account] Tue 16 Oct 2018 7:53PM
I should have a draft ready for the zoom in the 25th
Dee Brooks Wed 27 Nov 2019 9:51AM
@Michelle Dunscombe - could you please find the above mentioned draft about overdrawn accounts so we can finalise this issue? TCOB have given us some great information and it would be good to revisit where we are up to instead of starting again!
Michelle Dunscombe Wed 27 Nov 2019 10:25AM
This is the application for class overdraw https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JIws3BcTKF0PpvYtvtTZxpU2uC73zz-VhPcRrCY5MIA/edit?usp=sharing
Michelle Dunscombe Wed 27 Nov 2019 10:27AM
This is the Jeder Dollars Handbook https://docs.google.com/document/d/18R3hCPvkIkmeQ2B2C4R9TLuklDf5Z_lXAgEmiYNtG4k/edit?usp=sharing
Dee Brooks Wed 27 Nov 2019 9:57AM
@Michelle Dunscombe - can we also re-instigate the 15% contribution discussion and see where people are at?
Michaela Kennedy Sun 1 Dec 2019 9:48AM
Jeder Handbook says - This cannot be to the value of more than $1000
Dee Brooks Tue 10 Dec 2019 8:26PM
Are you responding to the contribution discussion here, @Michaela Kennedy ? If that is correct, "cannot" is not a next-stage word, hence the discussion... :)
Yvonne · Sun 19 Aug 2018 2:25AM
good Sunday reading !! Geez...the issues!!!