Tue 20 Nov 2018 11:29PM

Discussion Thread on the use of 1080 in New Zealand

DG Daymond Goulder-Horobin Public Seen by 149

I am curious to know the membership's position on the usage of 1080 in New Zealand. There is a strong divide about its usage and whether it should be banned and reverted to Trapping or other safer methods, or whether 1080 "Does the Job".

I note that based on discussions I have had that it is clear the mainstream published science supports the usage of 1080 with all the major parties in agreement, perhaps a few searching or being open to alternatives to some extent. However, I also consider many observations of what 1080 seems to have done with some observing that it has damaged and destroyed aspects of wildlife as well as unreasonable collateral damage from its usage based on personal observations made by farmers and onlookers.

Thus we have a classic problem where the published and peer-reviewed science is not matching what some of us are actually seeing. So what do you guys think? I am hesitant to finish a write up of our approach to 1080 without support from the membership given the nature of the subject. Also share personal observations as well and "Viable" alternatives as they say in the mainstream if you have them.


Geoff Anderson Wed 21 Nov 2018 8:05PM

Incubator Discussion Thread on the use of 1080 (Food for thought)
This is a bigger question than just 'should we use 1080 or ban it'.
So ‘trying to understand it…’
1 There is a discussion on the target animals, and whether 1080 is the appropriate poison to use for each, and whether there are alternative methods in a case by case.
Two lists…All the target animals…The alternatives for each.
This may also cover the methods of its use.
2 The second question is persistence; do just the target animals get killed or does it kill unintended targets as well. Both as other animals & birds consuming the poison directly and also by getting into the food chain.
E.g. where a hawk consumes a dead rabbit, stoat or possum, originally killed by 1080.
And how many layers of the food chain this affects.

Negative anecdotal statements: My observations…
When 1080 is laid in the catchment areas of West Coast rivers, the whitebait disappear for 3 years.
One also notices the sudden decline of bird call from Ruru’s, Weka’s & Kea’s etc

Lists of pests: (feel free to add to these lists)
Mice, rats, stoats & ferrets, rabbits hares & possums, pigs goats & deer (Humans?).
Note: Ferrets, stoats, hawks & falcons, individually kill more rabbits each year than most sports shooters.

We live in an ecco-system where all life eats other life.
The reason they are called pests:
These introduced animals change the ecco system from what it was before we arrived and compete with us.
From time to time they also act as carriers of diseases like TB and so affect our animal crops and cause health risks to us.
We are unable to eliminate them entirely but over the last 150 years have been relatively successful in controlling them.
Each target animal has its own distinct behaviours allowing some methods to be successful and others not.
Also some effective methods are far more cruel than other methods.
Effectively killing everything in the forest is different than effectively killing just the target animals.
1080 is the former and it doesn’t do the job in a kind way compared to some alternative poisons.

The more ecco friendly alternatives are less financially efficient and possibly less politically correct. E.g. The use of lots of manpower to shoot trap, fumigate lay bait etc.
Going off subject making a quick argument for manpower: If everyone worked and no-one was unemployed… The tax take would be higher and social expenditure lower, wages would rise and society would have more people who felt useful. Good for NZ.


Annette Joel Wed 5 Dec 2018 2:56AM

I like your attitude - I would be grateful if the relationship between the UNITED NATIONS agendas and PESTS and 1080 could be considered together. Is it possible to be PEST free? Who decides what is a PEST? Have we got any independent (from our govt.) documentation from an expert stating that we need to become part of PEST FREE?
It is possible that when these questions are understood and answered the issue of 1080 will not need any consideration.
The lack of any independant testing on humans for 1080 is a big concern - just a thought -


Stephen Dickson Sun 9 Dec 2018 5:52AM

Absolutely there is secondary poisoning, that includes native hawks etc.
I have worked with 1080 often (forced to)
Here is a fact for everyone to consider, the people that hate 1080 the most are the people that have worked with it. With good reason, they have seen what it does and how indiscriminate it is. Even Pindone has a large secondary poisoning effect and it is more humane than 1080.
Another one we are about to lift the lid on is Brodifacoum. Massive misuse with this product as well.

You will note the people that back it are all paid by govt, the one independent paper is very much against it. I wonder what that is all about?...
There is a massive amount of corruption and lies surrounding poisons and there use in this country. That is fact.
Incompetence in its use is also massive. Never poison in September to December as it will fail. That is a guarantee. January to April, maybe IF conditions are right, maybe. All 1080 carrot work should be done in July to early August, oats latish summer if it's been dry and not much food around.
When do doc poison? Whenever the fuck they like. They will and do in fact poison just to spend a budget as they worry they will lose the money.
How fucked up is that?

Currently doc and ospri (formally TBfree) both do whatever they want.
They are NOT accountable to anyone.
Their processes are NOT accountable.
Their methods are NOT accountable.
Think about this. They pore poisons, not just 1080 onto this country. This costs a massive amount of money BUT they don't have to prove it was money well spent to anyone. There is so much underhanded stuff going on and not one cent has to be accounted for.
I do know it is a very corrupt system, all funded by govt.


Annette Joel Thu 22 Nov 2018 12:48AM

Please BAN 1080 - I am not going to go into all the reasons here - become informed - we are not GOD - try to understand evolution and ecology - read Dr Fiona M F McQueen's book - "The Quiet Forest" The 1080 issue is extremely large.

We will never be completely pest free
we will and are killing our protected species including biota - without the good bacteria there is not the ability for trees and plants to uptake neutriants and our water is being contaminated/poisoned.
There is NO antidote, 1080 is a weapon of mass destruction - even Hitler decided not to use is as it was too dangerous. It is extremely cruel-
The use of 1080 to eliminate so called pests is about our Govt making money for an SOE without the mandate of the people-
Also about the United nations agendas that the people of NZ do NOT know anything about.
It has been used in NZ for 60 yrs and has not been successful -although the illnesses that it causes are the highest in the world in NZ.
We have had shipments of exports returned to NZ because of high levels of 1080 -
Our image as an export nation is contaminated - people overseas do NOT believe our Govt's propaganda - and this 1080 issue is the biggest PROPAGANDA there ever has been in NZ and maybe the world. Tourists have written to our Govt saying t hey are not coming back because of this issue.

Evolution moves foward - NOT bacwards!!
Possums do not spread TB - our govt. depts have been injecting possums with TB and then releasing them into areas that were TB free to try to keep this business going -
NZ has currently got a TB free status.
The colateral damage as a result of 1080 use in NZ is far too high esp. when it is killing what we want to protect including people.
Sorry about the spelling - I could go on and on -


Daymond Goulder-Horobin Fri 23 Nov 2018 1:58AM

I am considering holding a poll, perhaps during the Internet Party Annual General Meeting coming up in regards to our viewpoint on 1080. I am comfortable supporting the Ban 1080 movement if the membership supports the campaign as I have seen a number of problems based on what friends and family have seen with its usage. However, I will not go "Rambo" if I start the official support only to find the membership doesn't support the campaign.

I am keen to hear the opinions on this from anyone in the party, whether "Current member" or "Legacy member". Personal Observations versus The Mainstream Published Science seems to be the game I am observing at the moment.

Note - a Current Member is someone that has paid their membership fee within the last 3 years. Please Contact me either over the Internet Party Discord or email the membership at [email protected] to confirm or re-fill out our online application form. $1 membership btw.


Annette Joel Fri 23 Nov 2018 3:22AM

with the greatest of respect there have been numerous poles done on this
subject – over the decades – even by DOC itself -
the latest has 85% of people in NZ are OPPOSED to the use of 1080 in our
country. And this is growing by the day as more people become exposed to the
effects of this extremely toxic neurotoxin that has NO antidote and is also very
difficult to have any independent testing done on it.
One needs to base ones opinion on real facts – as opposed to DOC and/or
F&B’s PROPAGANDA or any person who is on the govt. gravy train -

Any political party who cannot see:
* the consequences and unnecessary collateral damage NZ is
suffering as a result of the use of 1080 in our country – that cannot see

  • what is taking place as a result of our SOE’s being focused on
    profit overriding the pollution of our environment when it has been
    happening for over 65yrs

  • that thinks having a WAR against nature, against ecology and
    against evolution with the most toxic substance known to man is a
    good thing-

  • That does not understand the relationship between the United
    Nations agendas we have been signed up to and PEST
    FREE without the mandate of the people

must be blind.

Yes, this will be a test for the party and it’s values - you cannot
make this a value if the membership does not support this issue at an AGM
I would like to suggest that the large number of people who oppose the use
of 1080 in NZ would not support or pay $1 to any party that does NOT agree with

This issue needs to be based on FACT and NOT PROPAGANDA!!!

Please keep me informed.
best wishes,
Annette Joel.


Daymond Goulder-Horobin Fri 23 Nov 2018 4:56AM

If the membership wants us to move on the campaign to Ban 1080, then we do it. I think quite a few including our former Party Leader Suzie Dawson and some of our policy guys are against the usage. I would like to make our position concrete at the AGM if possible so if we start campaigning, we don't want members out of touch questioning why we are doing something and not being able to show the members supporting the move.

Its just the process we have to follow with something like this.


Geoff Anderson Fri 23 Nov 2018 10:23PM

I agree with Annette Joel’s initial statements and assessment: We are one of the only countries in the world that still allow 1080 but as first responder I didn’t want to “leap”, preferring to create discussion.

Identifying the problems:
1: Defining the concept of efficiency.
The original thread referenced an apparent conflict between “science” and ‘farmers & other observers’.
“Efficiency / cost of killing the pests” verses “overkill & long term contamination of the ecco system” are different arguments. Killing everything makes a mockery of trying to identify what animals are pests.

2 Cruelty is a social construct of pain & duration, where we emphatically avoid pain ourselves, but all pest destruction involves some level of cruelty. We could list them in order but it is also a different argument than either “Efficiency” or “Overkill”.

3 Fact: Pests can’t be removed easily with a single tool without getting the non target species.
Each tool has pros & cons, but money / cost is how we define them.

I favor money being put into competitions to develop ecco friendly tools and methods.
The internet can be used to find & connect these budding ideas & methods.
Judge the ideas by these points of identifying the target by its unique behavior, by low cruelty, by low impact on the rest of the environment.
The right ideas do more than just save money, they inform & raise awareness in the young.
They present a socially responsible image of NZ to the world.
Build a generation of informed problem solving children and we wont have to run around banning, as such problems will be transcended.
(But yes, “1080 no”)


Mason Bee Sat 24 Nov 2018 8:45PM

I would prefer a beyond 1080 approach. Eg; Genetic engineering research and development.

I am not a huge fan of the governments review of 1080 use primarily due to the pain and suffering it causes in animals which it has glossed over by referencing other papers which make it seem as though it is moderately humane when in fact the referenced paper referred to the potential welfare compromise as severe.

I also have concerns that much of the research into 1080 has been done by departments already invested in it. DOC especially appears to have a strong internal culture that may create bias in such research. That being said the few papers I have read appears to be reasonably solid although they tend to reference previous papers that may not be.

I agree with Annette that many visitors from overseas think we are bonkers to be dropping poison all over the place.

(Edited as anecdotal)


Mason Bee Sat 24 Nov 2018 11:40PM

That was not intended as inflammatory (last paragraph). Happy to edit it out if wanted.

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