Loomio
Thu 16 Apr 2015 12:49AM

Melbourne Autumn Tournament

AH Andrew Hayward Public Seen by 23

Discussing the format and details of Autumn tournament. Slated for 16th of May. Most proposals have been around having some sort of Bench tournament.

CW

Poll Created Mon 20 Apr 2015 12:52AM

Autumn Tourney Format Closed Fri 24 Apr 2015 6:05AM

Have five-person bench teams with open registration - cap at 10 teams.

Results

Results Option % of points Voters
Agree 87.5% 7 TM SSM J AH SHM CW LP
Abstain 0.0% 0  
Disagree 12.5% 1 DR
Block 0.0% 0  
Undecided 0% 16 DCM W J GH DM NL D AHM R BS VR AZ A S TW GG

8 of 24 people have voted (33%)

SSM

Sam S MEL
Agree
Mon 20 Apr 2015 1:27AM

Would like to keep it below 8 - but understand that may not be possible

J

James
Agree
Mon 20 Apr 2015 2:00AM

also agree with Sam, would be ideal to keep below 8.

AH

Andrew Hayward
Agree
Mon 20 Apr 2015 5:22AM

Agree. Scheduling would certainly benefit from having 8 teams though. Let's see how rego goes

LP

luke poland
Agree
Mon 20 Apr 2015 6:50AM

This format does not mean melbourne players will miss out. I therefore agree :)

DR

Damon Rao
Disagree
Tue 21 Apr 2015 1:21AM

This decision cannot be made until we know how many teams we have, currently there are two.

DR

Damon Rao Mon 20 Apr 2015 2:44AM

We need to develop a format and schedule, I don't think we can fit ten, maybe eight, definitely six teams depending on format. Here is the scheduling calculator: http://goo.gl/v4tXBw ( http://goo.gl/v4tXBw )Hour blocks for scheduling and pre publishing the schedule will be a MAJOR step forward for MBP, playing later into the evening (till 10pm) is definitely possible at Flag and allows for more polo.Fewer hour long games and knowing when they are on is preferable to a complex gradual schedule of half a dozen frantic ten minute games per team that require people to spend all day waiting around and not playing.We can close registration much sooner than Friday as a/ we have a cap and and b/ this has been discussed for so long teams should be ready.
Team based registration and payment would simplify things for organisers AND teams. (The longer this takes the harder and more expensive it is for people to book flights).

DCM

David Corrin MEL Mon 20 Apr 2015 4:40AM

What Damon said.

AH

Andrew Hayward Mon 20 Apr 2015 5:24AM

Also, we need to discuss costs/fees. Court hire is $900, transport for the boards and building materials might be around $400. if we have between 30 and 40 players then we need between $30 and $40 bucks a player to cover costs.

DR

Damon Rao Mon 20 Apr 2015 5:42AM

I see no reason to reduce fees from December. last time we were internally concerned about fees (when they were $20) the consensus from a much broader consultation was that the fees should be higher. When they were $35 (and we were on discounted court fees) I didn't hear any complaints. For this tournament I think $50 is reasonable.

SSM

Sam S MEL Mon 20 Apr 2015 5:49AM

I agree $50.

AH

Andrew Hayward Mon 20 Apr 2015 6:47AM

What is the justification of $50. Sure, people may pay it, but will usually ask to what the money is going.

LP

luke poland Mon 20 Apr 2015 7:00AM

I think $50 is a lot of money. However, im interested to see how much court time the bench format means players are guaranteed. If it is reasonable, then $50 is probably fair. One of the sucky things about the regular tournament format is that less experienced teams pay the same but get knocked out early. The bench format helps rectify this a bit I guess?

DCM

David Corrin MEL Mon 20 Apr 2015 7:03AM

How about paying the refs?

DR

Damon Rao Mon 20 Apr 2015 7:14AM

I have mapped a range of possible schedule scenarios using the spreadsheet and summarised them in this document: http://goo.gl/JzaoL4 It outlines game time per team etc. (The answer is pretty clear when you look at the options side by side.)

CW

Claire Wilson Mon 20 Apr 2015 7:56AM

I personally think one hour is too long for a bench game, I would prefer to see 40 minute games. After the interstate bench it was almost universally commented upon that the games were too long, they became boring for spectators and players alike. 40 minutes is enough to see which is the better team.

I also don't think there is much chance of us getting ten teams to play at this tourney, but wanted to cap it at that, because it could be done at a stretch, and it will mean nobody misses out.

How about we make it $50 rego, and $35 for concession (anyone under 18 or over 65 [polo isn't a young sport any more people], any full-time students, any people with Centrelink concession)?

I'm also super pleased to see discussion and voting happening on Loomio!

Also, Adrian suggested calling the tournament Benched As Bro, with the "Beached As Bro" whale as inspiration. I think this is a pretty great name for the tourney.

AH

Andrew Hayward Mon 20 Apr 2015 8:05AM

That's an hour blocked out for each game, so once you put in some time for a change over, plus a break in the middle, it'll be closer to 40 mins of actual game time.

SSM

Sam S MEL Mon 20 Apr 2015 8:08AM

What andy said, I agree with name, but would prefer 8 teams.

SHM

Samuel Hughes MLB Mon 20 Apr 2015 10:37AM

8 team cap sounds good; also agree on $50/35, paying refs and 1 hour blocks with 40mins actual play time.

CW

Claire Wilson Tue 21 Apr 2015 1:28AM

The committee met last night to approve members and talk about Autumn tourney. Our recommendations for the tourney are as follows:
- One court at Flagstaff with full height boards
- $40 rego fee
- Bench teams of 5 or 6 players
- Rego to be capped at 10 teams, though we think it is unlikely we will get more than 8 given the late notice for interstaters
- Round robin is preferable for the first day, but will depend on the number of teams that register, would prefer to pre-schedule all games for this day
- Single elim for second day
- "Benched As" to be the name of the tournament, t-shirts to be sold @ $30
- Polo cafe to run with profits going towards purchasing public liability insurance for the club
- Payment for refs in the form of food from the polo cafe

TM

Tom MLB Tue 21 Apr 2015 1:30AM

If you are going to sell t-shirts it's critical to get pre-orders to make sure you cover your costs. You don't want to be left out of pocket with a pile of XXL t-shirts that you can't sell.

CW

Claire Wilson Tue 21 Apr 2015 1:38AM

Yep Tom, tshirts to be pre-ordered at registration

D

Dante Tue 21 Apr 2015 12:15PM

After viewing Damon's document about scheduling I support 8 teams as seem to be the flavour on loomio.

After reading and hearing others opinions on the format my mind has been changed a number of times over the last couple of day but one thing that became apparent to me today is that while this discussion is important what really needs to happen is for teams to be formed so we actually know how many teams we ARE planning for. We cannot plan for ghost players and what if’s.

This tourney has had no league to make the selection process for teams and as such how many wins, goals or number of veteran players make them up will not select the teams who play in the autumn tourney. Teams will be made up of individuals who organised and got a team together.

To this end I would encourage all players who feel like they might “miss out” to please start talking to each other and get a possible team together as if you do I can assure you as long as we are under an 8 team cap I will do anything I can to get you on court.

Rego is not open yet and I apologize for this. It WILL be up soon. If everyone is in support I would like for it to have a deadline 3 days after it’s opening and a floating 6 then 8-team cap.

Lastly I would like to apologise to anyone who was offended by the committee meeting last night. The meeting was my idea and while other business did take place I had noted that I wanted to discuss the autumn tourney. I did not think it would be seen as a secret act, I can now see why it could be seen as one.

The suggestions posted on loomio were put together as a suggestion. I know I do not always have the best idea in mind and I’m happy when someone comes up with better alternatives that I could not have come up with. However as President I felt like I must do something and I’m sorry if my action have done anything to make people feel excluded from the discussion and planning process.

To recap.
Rego will be up ASAP.
I Support 5 to 6 player teams.
I support an 8 team cap.
Please start-getting teams ready.

D

Dante Wed 22 Apr 2015 9:05AM

Rego is Open.
Due to technical difficulties registration will be through email.
One member of each team needs to send through to me

The team Name
Player List
A contact phone number

My email is: dantelkurth(at)gmail(dot)com

There is a 8 team cap on this tourney so it’s first in best dressed.
Each team must have between 5 and 6 players.

I will be contacting all teams in the next few days.

Hope to see you all in Melbourne

AH

Andrew Hayward Wed 22 Apr 2015 12:14PM

So it looks like Rego filled up real quick. I'm sure everyone is pretty surprised. I haven't seen the rego list, but I know there is a Brisbane/Sydney team that missed out, and probably at least 1 Melbourne team, not sure about the canberrra team. Despite the disagreements we've had about this, I think we can all agree that it's a shame that people missing out on polo is a sucky thing. To that end, I think we should revert back to the 10 team limit that we voted for here originally.

Dante said he posted an 8 team limit after looking at Damon's scheduling document, which is fair enough. I think we can actually do pretty well to include 10 teams, with the same number of games as with 8 (3 each). It means a 15 hour day of polo, but the schedual I came up with means that no team needs to be at the courts for more than 6 hours (from when they start to when they finish) and for an average of 4.4 hours. That's a pretty good compromise. It does however require that we pre-pick who plays who to some degree.

The second day can then be some kind of top/bottom elimination with probably a maximum time at the courts being 5 hours. that day.

What do you guys think

SSM

Sam S MEL Wed 22 Apr 2015 12:22PM

Pleasantly surprised at interest for the tourney. I'm undecided about your proposal, but want to point out extra teams would also require more refs, and more organisation, and I think for those organising it will become quite strenuous. But possible. 15 hours of polo would have to be the longest day of polo ever.

DR

Damon Rao Wed 22 Apr 2015 1:28PM

Can you post your schedule Andrew? I like the sound of what you have outlined but I'd like to see how it works, please feel free to add it into the google document as well under 10 team options for future reference.

I like the idea that successfully registered teams should not have to reduce the number or duration of games to expand the tournament.

Its true, pre scheduling an entire day and not using Swiss gives people better certainty.

Picking who plays in nominally graded groups as even match ups are preferable in longer games and avoiding blowouts would be better for everyone on day one as well as day two. I'm sure you would have a good way to account for this.

In large part this issue has arisen not because of any eliteness, bit simply because we have never had to deal with tournament caps in melbourne, even though they have been well established in other cities, let alone standard overseas.

Apart from having the cap, not knowing when the registration was going to open (eg at a pre announced time like monday 7pm) is the most unconventional thing about this process)

Also more and more reason to pay refs.

Allowing more teams also gives us $400 more to play with.

Pleasantly surprised at interest for the tourney. I’m undecided about your proposal, but want to point out extra teams would also require more refs, and more organisation, and I think for those organising it will become quite strenuous. But possible. 15 hours of polo would have to be the longest day of polo ever.

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TM

Tom MLB Thu 23 Apr 2015 12:17AM

I'm slightly concerned that rego was opened before this proposal had closed, and with different terms as well.

AH

Andrew Hayward Thu 23 Apr 2015 12:54AM

Updated the document. It's jsut one example, there are lots more options depending on what is important. My opinion is, if more people want to play, and we can give them more polo, then why the hell not. We've got the court built and hired out. Let's maximise!

I know that there have been lots of heated discussions around the tournament structure, and most of this is due to us leaving it wayyyyyy too late. But as it is, I don't think we can exclude people just because they happened to be at work when the rego was announced. If we do need to restrict teams, then it's going to have to be by lot or something (like buying tickets for a popular show). Until we see a team list though it won't be clear how many more people we can accommodate though.

DCM

David Corrin MEL Thu 23 Apr 2015 2:11PM

So you are proposing that if we go over some hypothetical cap then we should put all the teams in a hat and draw them out no matter their order of registration? Surely you don't intend to do that for interstate teams that are already under the impression that they have made the cut…

AH

Andrew Hayward Thu 23 Apr 2015 10:47PM

Well no, I'd reserve space for interstate teams of course. But if we've got to choose between local teams then I don't have a better idea than by lot. Luckily it looks like it won't come to that.

DR

Damon Rao Thu 23 Apr 2015 11:14PM

If "by lot" selection method the local teams has the potential to knock out a favourite and substantially effect that outcome of the tournament then I don't think it's better than other methods of selection.

DCM

David Corrin MEL Thu 23 Apr 2015 11:39PM

No biggie. I just added an interstate member to my team! Phew! ; )

TM

Tom MLB Thu 23 Apr 2015 11:55PM

We need to admit that we screwed up with the rego, ask for teams who missed out to register their interest by a certain time and date, then make a decision at this time with the information we have.

AH

Andrew Hayward Fri 24 Apr 2015 12:48AM

Sure. I kinda agree Damon, but then you need to actually be explicit about how you choose who gets in. I'm just saying that FIBD is a pretty crummy one. But as it stands we probably won't breech 10 teams anyway.

AH

Andrew Hayward Fri 24 Apr 2015 12:48AM

As always, if we knew who/how many wanted to play then we could have some more substantial discussions.

TM

Tom MLB Fri 24 Apr 2015 2:04AM

Can we get a list of teams/players published? That way those without a team will more easily be able to work out who else isn't yet in a team and will be able to sort something out.

D

Dante Fri 24 Apr 2015 2:22AM

Hey Everyone, sorry for the delay in posting the team list. It stands as such

D

Dante Fri 24 Apr 2015 2:31AM

Due to some shuffling within teams we now have 7 not 8 teams.
One team (Sydney Sliders) has only 4 player so room for 2 free agents.
I have heard that Brissy missed on rego so i've sent a message their way to see what the situation is.
The same for Timaru.

TM

Tom MLB Fri 24 Apr 2015 3:01AM

Did we reach out to other cities to let them know about rego? I don't see any teams/players from Perth, Brisbane, Hobart, Adelaide or the whole of NZ.

D

Dante Fri 24 Apr 2015 3:09AM

Apart from Timaru and Brisbane no I hadn't, I'll put a post up on Facebook now to Australian Hardcourt Bike polo, Melbourne Bike Polo and the Autumn Tourney Event page.
Timaru has just got back to me and said no and Jamie told me that that most people seem busy with uni or work but he'll see if he can drum some interest up on sunday

CW

Claire Wilson Sat 25 Apr 2015 2:34AM

There a bunch of notable Melbourne players who aren't yet registered, so I think we will end up with 8 teams at the end of the day, but it seems like we can go ahead and plan for a 7 or 8 team tournament.

Also, I saw Gemma is making a logo, which is cool, and very in keeping with the tourneys tradition. Does anyone have any information about this and when it will be ready?

AH

Andrew Hayward Thu 30 Apr 2015 10:42AM

I invited peasant boys bean squeezery down to provide coffee for us. They seem pretty keen.