Welcome to Digital Co-ops

Hello, I'm Steven, a co-founder of Open Data Services Co-operative.

I'm really interested in ways that we can collaborate with others to build both our organisations, but also potential tools/things for others.

John here, a kind of one man rent-a-mob.

Currently doing some work with Outlandish who are in the process of becoming a co-op.

There are a few young, digital co-ops out there and we're hoping to encourage some meaningful co-operation as Steven noted above.

Harry - co-founder of Outlandish tech co-op, builders of tools that combine complex data with beautiful UI.

Outlandish are keen to form (and potentially bootstrap) a Enspiral-UK-like organisation. AKA Tech Co-op Megazord. Very exciting times.

How doo! I'm olizilla and I co-founded TABLEFLIP.

I'm keen to be a part of the tech co-op megazord. Maybe a foot or an eye or something.

It'd be great to chat with you all some more about the practicalities of transitioning to, and maintaining a healthy co-op, long term.

Hello

Edafe - data whisperer and Open Data Services co-op-er. I'm interested in turning data into insight, stories and useful tools.

Welcome Edafe,
You're the 4th Open Data Co-op-er, I've crossed paths with (I think). Great to have you here!

Hello - Ed from Co-operative Web. We're a geeky programming co-op based in Birmingham doing all kinds of stuff from massive statistical databases to online iPad conferences webapps.

We're interested in the Megazord and also how it ties in with our own idea of The People Co-operative and where this might take us. We've also not engaged with many of the digital co-ops for a good few years so it's nice to meet a lot of new people :-)

Hi,

I'm Andy Croft - founder member of Gildedsplinters.coop. Gildedsplinters is an ideation platform consisting of 42 highly experienced creative professionals drawn from a wide range of sectors and disciplines. Marketing and advertising folk, architects, lawyers, film makers, fine artists, musicians, researchers. Our job is to have ideas - tangential ideas that provide solutions to marketing, business and organisational challenges.
Although not out and out technologists, we have a great deal of experience of working with tech companies, including many of the biggest. We whole-heartedly support the idea behind the Megazord (still think it's a great name) and relish the opportunity to become involved on any basis.

@andrewcroft @edrussell I've added your messages to the company profiles doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/16FWC7NlVakxVFiDE7hwSCQt-lu34Znpol2Wib6KSfJk/edit#heading=h.xkxutj38dnnr

Hope that's ok -- delete or edit if not.

Cool. I'll come up with a better description once I've stopped running around sorting out clients (taking a few days off always results in a heap of small annoying jobs!)

Hi Harry,

Thanks for this. Made a couple of tiny corrections. Otherwise all good. Exciting!!

AC

Hi, I'm from Webarchitects Co-operative, we have four workers and we mostly do shared hosting and sysadmin these days, we are Sheffield based and should be able to confirm next week how many of us are able to make it to Wortley Hall.

Hey everyone, I'm Kayleigh and work with Outlandish. We celebrated our first day as an official co-op last week so everyone is really looking forward to the first Megazord gathering in November.
Nice to be in comms with you all.

Hi. I'm Graham, been involved in co-ops if various flavours since the mid 80s. Very much into P2P, multi-stakeholding, FairShares, cryptocurrency, and the bit where these things join together. Aiming to get along to the Wortley gig if at all possible. Doing things at mc3.coop and networks.coop. Also working with ooooby.org.

Hi. I am Shaun. I co-founded Poptel in the 1980's. Poptel was a worker co-op and one of the first ISPs. We promoted the use of on-line communications in NGOs and the labour movement - we got organisations like ANC to use email, set up the first websites for trade unions and launched the .coop TLD with NCBA and the ICA. Now I work with a freelance co-op CBN (http://broadband.coop). We helped create the Brighton Digital Exchange (http://bdx.coop). I collaborate with @graham2 on Co-operative Networks.

Hi, I'm Josef, this is me. I'm co-founder of United Diversity and The Open Co-op. I'm helping to organise the Open 2017: Platform Cooperatives conference in London next February and have just joined Co-operatives Europe Working Group taking forward the work started by the "Cooperative Platforms in a European Landscape: An Exploratory Study" report launch earlier this month.

Hi. Chris Roos & I run Go Free Range. We're a London-based software development consultancy specialising in Ruby, Ruby on Rails & web development. Go Free Range was founded in 2009 as a loose collection of freelancers engaged on client projects as sub-contractors. However, in 2010 we decided to become a tighter group and work directly as employees. We operate as a limited company and each of us is a director and equal shareholder. Everyone takes shared responsibility for running the company and decisions are made by consensus. We're a bit smaller now than we were a a couple of years ago, but we're hoping to grow again. We regularly take conscious breaks between paid client projects to work on ideas we're interested in, e.g. in 2014 we investigated setting up our own online credit union. We're looking forward to meeting people at the retreat in November.

hey @jamesmead good to see you here. Excellent that you tried to set-up a credit union - did you ever make anymore progress? BTW, in case you've not seen it check out http://www.cuprium.net/ who started of with very similar ideas. Their rails code is on github here: https://github.com/Cuprium/cuprium

Also, do you know Josh Russel https://twitter.com/joshr ? I know he's been thinking about similar stuff too.

Finally, check out http://moneycircles.com/ who also want to do this sort of stuff.

Perhaps we should organise a meetup of all the people involved in these efforts to see what we can kickstart together? Personally I really look forward to the day when there is a "one click credit union" platform that solves this problem for whoever thinks of it next... (could be complemented by "one click revolving loan fund" etc etc too). :)

@jamesmead this news also seems to be potentially significant in the future:

http://positivemoney.org/2016/06/bank-of-england-uk-banks-to-lose-their-status-as-gatekeepers-to-the-payment-system/

And this is of relevance too because it demonstrates how needed such stuff is:

http://www.thenews.coop/103623/news/banking-and-insurance/credit-unions-the-mystery-of-the-disappearing-members/

Finally, I wonder if Monzo would be up for help new credit union stuff too?

https://monzo.com/

Thanks for all the links.

We learnt a lot, but ultimately decided against actually starting the application process for a credit union. Essentially as a very small business, we couldn't justify the amount of time and effort we expected the opaque application process to take. You can read more about where we got to in this article.

We chatted to Josh in the summer of 2015 and attended a discovery workshop on "ethical banking from the future", but we haven't kept up-to-date with what he's been up to.

We chatted to Jamie Burke about MoneyCircles back in the summer of 2014, but we haven't really kept up-to-date with where they've got to. Reading their website, it sounds as if their proof-of-concept is using https://uphold.com/.

@jamesmead I've added you to the public profiles document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/16FWC7NlVakxVFiDE7hwSCQt-lu34Znpol2Wib6KSfJk/edit#

Feel free to amend, etc.

Thank you!

Jack here, founder/director of Worth Cooperating, a worker coop developing the UK branch of Fairmondo (www.fairmondo.uk). Just finished studying computing at uni which included time working as a developer for a tech consultancy in London. Currently there isn't much technical work on the go at Fairmondo UK. Hopefully, in the not so distant future, we will have the resources to deploy and continue development of the open source Ruby on Rails platform used by our fellow German cooperators (www.fairmondo.de).

I've recently moved back home to Keighley, West Yorkshire. Hoping that now I've settled down I can contribute more to this Loomio group! Really excited about what tech/digital coops can achieve together and the potential outputs of events like the upcoming one at Wortley Hall :)

Hi Jack, welcome! I think we met at Ethical Consumer Conf (and maybe at the Outlandish Fellowship Launch?? I have such a bad memory!) I'm the 50% Outlandish / 50% Balu founder (getbalu.org).

I hope the Fairmondo project is going ok. Have been keeping an eye on it :). Balu took a hiatus over the summer - Outlandish stuff got too hectic. But am beginning to pick it up again now :)

Yes I remember our conversations :) I'd really like to talk some more about Balu! What's your email?

brian@getbalu.org

Hey Jack, I got in touch last week via your Twitter account because I didn't have your email address. Thanks for posting- as you can see a lot has been discussed so far.
Would you like to come to the Megazord? I remember you saying that the price might be an issue (I started this thread yesterday: https://www.loomio.org/d/93Kolm4U/co-op-sprint-retreat with you in mind but haven't received a response yet, hint hint everyone else :D )
Thanks
Kayleigh

Hi everyone -- I'm Simon Grant and I've just joined. I'm a co-founder of Cetis LLP http://www.cetis.org.uk/ which is a 10-strong cooperative limited liability partnership doing research development and consultancy, mainly in the area of educational and learning technologies. Until last year, we were part of the University of Bolton, and had much of our work paid for by UK higher education, mostly through Jisc. Now we're diversifying, but retain our deep knowledge and experience of UK HE and its related IT needs.

We, or I, would be delighted to collaborate on any project around technology for learning, education or training. My own specialty is systems supporting personal development, skills, and electronic portfolios etc.

Personally, I'm also a member of a co-housing project (Lancaster Cohousing) and I'm very much into non-hierarchical governance, as well as the kind of personal development that goes with the territory of an everyday sharing culture.

My interest in consensus extends also to the creation and maintenance of technical interoperability standards -- a keystone of past Cetis work.

Hi Simon, welcome to the network :D

Could you add some details to this Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/16FWC7NlVakxVFiDE7hwSCQt-lu34Znpol2Wib6KSfJk/edit?usp=sharing

I'll also send you an email with our Wiki link so that you can have a catch up on what we spoke about the last time (and first time) that we met with a couple of pointers on where to look. Good to have more people on board with the Co-operative Technologists.

Hi I'm John Atherton,

I can't code or anything but work at Co-ops UK the network of co-ops with a particular passion for worker co-ops. As most of you are members of ours very happy to help facilitate or provide support where I can. Particularly interested in:

• I'd love to be involved in the creation of an Enspiral like network. Manchester is particularly crying out for it.
• How we can use platform/tech to reduce transactions costs for collaboration between co-ops, to promote, develop and unite them. What would a business association like Co-ops UK look like if its was built from the ground up like this.

Hi @johnatherton @vica @awaterhouse @anthonymurrry and osb@open.coop

this group is currently only open to member of worker co-op digital agencies (democratic, worker-led, non-exploitative, worker owned organisations that make a significant proportion of their income from producting and selling technological or digital products.

If you're not one of those can we ask you to leave this group? We'd love you to be involved but this is a space for decision making rather than general discussion.

Can I suggest I add you to the Slack channel instead?

Many thanks,

Harry

no probs by all means remove us.

Loomio can be used for decision making but we have been mostly using it as a discussion board... so rather than excluding people we could perhaps just be clear about who gets to vote on things if and when any voting is needed?

Yep. Worried about excluding people who share aims and values. I'd like a discussion about a Manchester Enspiral....

ok

Hi Harry, I'm a little confused about this comment.

I have been involved in conversations about setting up an Enspiral Network well before all this process started as you well know. You also invited me personally to the retreat, which I would have very much liked to have come to if it hadn't been at the same time as the #PlatfromCoop event in New York.

As I haven't introduced myself yet I'll do so now for those who don't know me:

I am not a developer and make a very limited income from tech, but I am very much embedded in the Tech-Coop world.

• I design websites for free (or for very low rates) for grassroots organisations with very limited resources
• I do workshops on how to use loomio and other online platforms for collaboration
• I help organisations in defining how to apply co-op principals in they way they operate
• I have promoted the idea of #PlatformCoops in the UK by organising (with the support of Outlandish) a PlatformCoops event with Nathan Schnieder at Newspeak House, I have briefed the Labour party on PlatformCoops who have now adopted it in their manifesto and have spoken about it at various events. *I was involved in the tech working group of Occupy that very much transformed the way tech tools can be used for social justice.

Yes, tech is not my main source of income.
Yes, I am not currently part of a workers coop.
But many other people in this loomio group aren't either!

My understanding was that this network was about creating a network of coops and freelancers that use tech to support projects with socially useful aims. That the idea of the "freelancers coop" was very much embedded in the project.

If Enspiral is the model, then the freelancer is actually the central element of the network, not pre-existing businesses. The whole point is to allow people to work on socially useful projects and have an income from it, without having to set up a business of their own.

If I am confusing projects and aims, that's fine, and happy to leave.
But I am very serious about setting up something similar to Enspiral in London, so if anyone is interest please let me know. I have been in contact with many people from Enspiral after visiting them 2 years ago. I will be going to the their retreat in NewZealand in February and embedding myself their for a few weeks.

I thought this was the place to make it happen, but if it's not that's fine.

On the other hand if it is, then I'd like to be actively part of it.

I do agree, that it's important to have a clear understanding of who can be part of it and how decisions are made. I've taken a look at the wiki and it doesn't appear to me that there is a clear agreement on this, but please direct me to it if I've missed it.

Maybe deciding on these two things could be an important next step for the network?

Hi Vica,

all good points and ones which echo many others here including @shaunfensom and @sionwhellens

I would personally very much like to have a network of worker controlled tech co-operatives as I believe we face many of the same issues.

I am in favour of the creation of a freelancers co-operative and if such an organisation made a significant proportion of its income from selling digital products and services then I believe it should join the uk tech worker co-op network.

My understanding is that there are fairly clear criteria for joining this group: you work for a worker/consortium co-operative that delivers technology for money.

I believe decisions are made by consent: at least that's what we've been doing up until now. Various people have raised issues about social enterprises, exploitative consortium co-ops, groups or individuals whose main goal is to serve tech co-ops, and freelancers and so far we've not made an agreement to extent the membership to any of those groups.

I believe there is a broader Principle Six initiative that needs to be kicked off here, looking at how tech worker co-ops can interact with non-tech-co-ops, non-co-op tech companies, etc. (see attachment).

Perhaps yourself Sion, Shaun, and anyone one else who is interested in the interface between tech worker co-ops and other initiatives would be willing to start a working group on how we can be outward facing rather than inward facing, and how we can engage non-members in planning and decision making?

I think Outlandish would be willing to put some funds towards such a project if someone wanted to make a proposal.

Regarding the important next steps for the network I think issues about membership criteria and a manifesto will be key, but I think it should be the members that makes those decisions.

I feel sad this will inevitably put some people off - as I told Momentum, anyone that thinks people are happy to be denied membership to clubs has been reading the wrong Marx. However, there are a lot of forums for general co-operation such as platform co-ops, co-ops uk, teal organisations etc.

What I could really do with is a forum to discuss running tech worker co-ops with other people who are doing the same thing. If people don't want this forum to be that then I would be disappointed but I don't mind moving my efforts to a new Loomio/organisation.

All the best,

Harry

I've updated our group description to make it clearer: https://www.loomio.org/g/oVwtKDOn/digital-co-ops

Though the group was already described as "Somewhere for members of digital co-ops to start to deliver on their shared commitment to Principle Six" which I feel made it reasonably clear who the intended members are.

@kayleighwalsh and I were just discussing this. Kayleigh made an important point (but is heading to the pub, so I'm paraphrasing it here...)

To begin with, this network only had Loomio as a platform to communicate. So in response to @chriscroome's point, it has indeed become quite discussion-boardy.

We believe this network needs a place for efficient discussion, with as wide a range of people as possible. Loomio is not a good tool for this; Slack is.

We also believe this network needs to move beyond discussion and make hard decisions and take tangible action. Loomio is a good tool for this.

So how do people feel about leaning towards Slack for general discussion, and leaning towards Loomio for decision making?

Which would therefore make more sense if Loomio is public and visible to all, but with only CoTech members making and discussing proposals.

I can imagine a conversation on Slack that might end with "great, thanks everybody, I'll take that to the CoTech Loomio group for a decision". Feels like a nice way to run things.

I'm happy to go with the suggestions of @kayleighwalsh and @harryrobbins above but think that if we are are to be strict with newcomers we should also probably check who is here already for the sake of consistency and in order to be fair -- I added someone from the tech-coop list (the, mostly, North American one) the beginning not knowing what I know now... So perhaps a fairly strict membership audit is needed?

In terms of using Slack, that's fine by me, I find it far more accessible than Loomio due to the IRC gateway -- in general I find Loomio, Slack, the Hackpad and the Mediawiki VisualEditor (the WYSIWYG editor) very tedious due to the huge quantity of client side Javascript they all use and which makes these sites almost unusable on older computers (the Mediawiki plain text editor is fine however, especially when using a Firefox plugin to allow the textarea to be edited in vim...). I also have a strong preference for self hosted sites -- sites and applications we (we being tech coops) host ourselves on our own hardware as this makes us more autonomous and gives us the potential to protect the users privacy (not sure I'd consider Loomio in this category due to it's extensive use of services from Cloudflare, Amazon and Google and in addition the huge quantity of HTTP content the HTTPS pages load is very irritating... Sorry for ranting a little :-)

Sorry I forgot to mention -- if we are being strict with the membership of the Loomio group we should also make it clear what other channels we have and how people can, or can't join them, for example,
* The tech-coops email list is open to anyone with a validated email address to join and the archives are open.
* The wiki is set so only existing users can add other users and anyone can read it (it's a little more complicated than this, but this is roughly right, the main reason for this was to prevent spammers).

Useful conversation here. My 2 pennyworth: I really don't sit well with the notion of excluding people from this place. For me openness is an important principle that we should be seeking to support. Whilst I also agree that sometimes discussions and decisions may be commercially sensitive, and therefore be carried out behind closed doors, I don't think we're yet at that point.

Consequently I would encourage a position where there is a single, open forum where interested people can participate.

When there is a clear and agreed definition of which organisations are signed up members of Cooperative Technologists, and what the criteria for membership are then that group can establish its internal channels and protocols as it wishes. Judging by the discussion here and elsewhere, that definition is as yet unclear (even thought it might not look like that to some people).

For me, I'm interested in the potential of this CoTech grouping, in terms of learning and being involved in how such an organisation could operate successfully, and the systems it adopts/creates to enable that. But also - and perhaps more importantly for me - I'm interested in the potential of the organisation as a whole to make an impact on the outside world by collaborating to change the game. On that basis I count myself in with @vica @sionwhellens and @shaunfensom etc.

As a side note, and partly in response to @brianspurling's post, I've got say that I find using multiple channels simultaneously unhelpful especially when the focus of the conversation covers lots of the same ground.

From discussions at Wortley, there was a proposal to use the Slack group for the bulk of our discussions.

I'd like to see the slack group open to anyone who is interested enough to participate. As @brianspurling suggested, it'd work well if issues that surface in the group chat are elevated to a Loomio debate or vote as required.

This'd be a change of use for of this Loomio group, but, I agree, I find having multiple, competing channels for the same issues unhelpful, and it feels like we're spread too thinly at the moment.

There is the issue that Slack is invite only, so where do people ask for invites to that if the Loomio is to be more for administrative issues rather than a chat forum. We can set up an auto-invite page with tools like http://rauchg.com/slackin but we still need to host that and point people to it.

Hello Everyone,

I am a co-founder of the Creative Coop. We're a small studio specialising in Branding, Design and Web Development. We work with social enterprises, community projects and organisations, charities and the public sector.

The description for this group says "If you have clear intentions for this Loomio group, you could share them" but if I am entirely honest I don't have clear intentions yet. I just want the Creative Coop to be more proactive, offer positive contributions where appropriate and become better collaborators with peer organisations and other tech/design related Coops.

So far I have enjoyed observing these Loomio threads and although we use Slack in our day-to-day operations I might find it all a bit chatty for this context. Willing to give anything a go though.

Marc

Yesterday I learned that Loomio needs revenue to survive and grow. Consequently I think this group should show its active support for the Loomio cooperative project by paying for the service ($19 per month - not sure if that's US or NZ or something else) and using it rather than the VC funded Slack. A proposal to this effect will appear shortly.