Great to hear everyone's ideas and thanks for all the research, amazing work! We are currently working with Grahame and John to put together a proposal everyone can vote on...if you have any last minute updates please share them now!!

And actually whilst putting together the proposal some big questions have come up... @wendyalcock @darren4 @johnanthonyallan @stevenjacobs @tessatricks @jamestickell @johncherry thanks for your contributions already!! If you or any of the other collective members (including me) can find out the answers to some of these questions that would be amazing. And also please do put up any other questions that have come up whilst investigating different options!
1. What would bakery pay for flour - if bakery who buys 1 tn get much better price than 100kg? Can bakers take it in 16 kg bags? or 30 kg bags?
2. What is the shelf life of spelt flour once it’s been through a stone mill?
3. Who or where will we store it once it's milled? and if we do end up selling flour who will take care of shipping it in and out, invoicing bakers etc? Is there is a co-op member who would want to take this on?
4. If we get it milled in small quantities - where will we ship it to once it's milled and how will we distribute it to people from there?
5. Are there any risks we don’t know about? like if it gets damp in a barn it will be a complete loss etc? can it get to the baker and then they send it back?

@grahamehunter will release the proposal in the next few days, once we have a bit more clarity on some of these questions

Abby and I were talking about these issues this morning..my reservation about including small-scale milling as an option was to make sure we understood that _ if we go down this route we are entering a slightly different business area - of wholesaling flour _ which will have other implications beyond farming; and it seems unreasonable to assume that OurField farmer John at Weston should take this on, as well as growing the stuff for us.

The other issue we discussed - not mentioned by Abby - is who would raise the invoices if we sold to a group of small bakers; how would they pay; to whom; and who would chase them if they paid slowly..? (To me, it still seems _ a weakness of OurField cooperative that there is no bank account _ - which we may wish to remedy if we go on for more years..

Thank you Grahame for raising some important topics. The intervention is timely.
It has been interesting observing the hesitant on-line discussion moving to address issues beyond farming. Such a shift is understandable for a number of reasons. There re three market modes in the food supply chain. 1. Food production is the first mode of the food system. 2 The second mode trades, manufactures and retails food. 3 The third is the food consumption mode including catering. The first is a failed market that is kept in place by incredible farmers and subsidies. [Farmers don't fail. They operate in a system, devised by society [Ourfielders are part of society] and its politicians, where commodity prices do not capture all the costs of production.] The second mode is a fairly effective market where profits are made and taxes paid and there are millions of accounting rules, armies of accountants and many corporates as well as artisanals, The third mode is another failed market where under-priced food has to be available for low income [under-paid?] consumers.

Consumers have lost sight of farming and its risks and challenges. We OurFielders, who are food consumers, have been transformed in 2017 by the opportunity to relate to the high risks that farmers have to face in mode one. The risks are high because both weather and markets can be volatile and make farming very high risk.

We have a lot of members who are active in the supply chain beyond food production. But do we have the experience, and more important, do we have the volunteer time to manage activities beyond the farm gate. I do not have such expertise and I cannot volunteer time to manage or do the accounts. My time time and material inputs so far have been limited to getting Professor David Dent to carry out some soil surveys and to finance some of his expenses.
Because I cannot make a significant contribution to developing inputs and activities beyond the farm gate and I have no idea what volunteer capacities we have I think we should take an approach that matches our capacities. If we have capacity with respect to leadership and operational inputs then they need to be revealed.

I like very much the idea of having a bank account.

It would be useful if this engagement on Loomio could be less hesitant.
Thank you Grahame

I think John Allens comments were very interesting, and I do hope that his sign-off comment - It would be useful if this engagement on Loomio could be less hesitant. has not deterred members from speaking further.
I think there is lots of useful information gathered and presented here now, and many thanks especially to Darren for his homework in speaking to mills.

To keep the momentum, I am therefore going to put out a proposal for a simple vote, to limit options, and to direct the avenue of our future moves..

Dear Grahame
Very many thanks for circulating the poll on what to do with the 15 tonnes.
May I pose some questions? I am beyond elderly but I have the curiosity of youth.
1 Has all the harvesting been completed on the farm? With what outcome? One understands it has not been a good year.
2 Will there be a harvest festival? It would be an opportunity for members to catch up?
3 Has it been agreed that the excellent OurField project will continue next year? If not can we have a poll? I am strongly in favour of continuation.
4 If yes - could John advise our cropping, agronomic & beyond farm gate options for 2017-2018?
5 Have you opened a bank account? I hope so.

Very good questions.. I would love to know if, when and where there will be a Harvest Festival..

@nikireynolds and the whole collective. The harvest festival will be on Thursday 23rd November at E5 Bakehouse, London from around 7pm. We just confirmed this over the weekend, so are now getting into action organising! It will be a great evening, a joint harvest celebration with Farmerama and E5, with some talks, live music, food and hopefully our very own spelt flour (if that's what the collective votes for). Really hope you all can make it! You will hear more from us with an eventbrite link etc shortly...

Hi everyone and apologies for getting a bit disengaged due to being very busy over the last few months and I do appreciate everyone's comments, research and views. While still making my mind up on the options can I just check on the third option - a small quantity milled now - what would happen to the rest of it, would this lead to another decision if this option won? I am leaning towards the 4th option but still considering and don't want to put any burdens on others.

Yes, I imagine the third option to be just kicking the decision down the road a bit..

What is it worth?

I have put a note in the accounts thread relating the costs of production for each individual OurField cooperative meber to the cash balance you each hold, under this heading.
To better understand the financial implications of the poll, and for those who may not have studied the accounts to date, this note may be useful.

Dear Grahame and Abby and Darren and others who are providing a basis for informed decision making -
Very many thanks for all the the very useful postings on activity beyond the farm gate. The accounting information is very useful indeed and thank you Grahame for making it very accessible. It is good that we have a date for the London meeting later in the month. In my opinion we should use the occasion to share our expertise and inform each other. I'll be happy to watch everyone dance and celebrate the night away but I would also like to give as much time as possible to hearing from John and his agronomist and Grahame. I'd like very much to hear from Darren and I could offer a few minutes bringing people up to speed on the economically dysfunctional food system with which we have chosen to engage. Our advocacy and enthusiasm are laudable but we need to know and understand the nature of our very politicised food supply chain(s). We also need a Q&A with John. I hope he will be able to make it.

I'm wondering exactly how things are going to work.

I've found it a bit frustrating at times not knowing what factors & information is informing the drafting of voting options.

I think it would be nice if the information & discussions the organisers were having were more visible to the collective, but I appreciate that this isn't always easy to do, especially given that the whole Ourfield idea/process is evolving, and I get the impression that the organising team, like many in the collective have found it hard to find the time to participate to the level they hoped.

Its likely to be quite a lot of work to organise dehulling, milling, storage, sales, and distribution. How is that all going to happen? I could only really see some of it coming via volunteer work from the collective.
Also I'm not sure about what possible leads may already be on the table (if any?), above what a few of us have posted in the google doc

I appreciate all the work going into making this happen. I'm enjoying being involved.

Dear Darren
You were on your screen very late last evening. Thank you for capturing very cleverly the dilemmas facing the collective that include - the complex challenges of farming, demanding learning curves, limited organisational capacities, and the need to decide on how much we can engage in the food supply chain beyond the farm gate. To highlight a few. It is amazing being involved. Looking forward to the E5 Bakehouse event. I'll be locating the venue via the North London Line and the 55 bus this afternoon.

Hi Abby,
I will try and come on 23rd Noveember to the harvest celebration.
It is a very long way to travel and not very easy. I will see.
Partner won't come as its too far away to travel after a long day at work.

I visited the E5 Bakehouse in vibrant Hackney on a sunny Friday afternoon with Mary. Finding new locations in London on cold very dark November evenings is for many of us a challenge. The only easy way - for those who are not Hackney residents - to get there is by the London Overground service from Liverpool Street on the line to Cheshunt. As the E5 Bakehouse website tells us the cafe is immediately under London Fields station. There are lots of buses on Mare Street which is 500 metres away but I would not enjoy finding the cafe on a dark evening from there. People coming from the north would be advised to get the train from Cheshunt to the London Fields rail station. The E5 Bakehouse and cafe are congenial and good with food. Parking is scarce in the vicinity of the cafe at Arch 395, Mentmore Terrace.

Yes, I gutted that event will take place here.. Have been before, driving on a Saturday when there is free parking and it is light.. Not easy to park due to lack of space.. On public transport.. A nightmare.. Partner won't consider coming.. I am not sure I want to come, a very sad situation..

I’m very much torn with this vote. 
I’m concerned that we as a collective do not have the capacity to fairly manage activities beyond the farm gate and as such I have been erring towards voting for option 1. Should Our Field go ahead next year - and I’m not sure whether ‘next year we can hope to do better’ means that a continuation of Our Field Weston is a possibility - it might be useful to formalise some time commitment from the ‘investors’ and do away with the word investors all together as this suggests more that we are underwriting the crop as opposed to having the option of an active hand in each step. Perhaps give options to collective members on how they would support the initiative with a mix of time, skills and cash. (Anyhow, not the place to go too much into this). 

I’ve certainly been quite ignorant about the amount of leg work needed to take the spelt from farm to table, or perhaps not asked myself early enough in the process what role I would like or be able to have it this or whether I'd be prepared to pay for other's for the further work needed. I’m feeling guilty about the amount of time and effort that a handful of members have put into moving things forwards and that I have very little in the way of time or expertise to offer in return. Thanks to all.

I've made my vote in the hope that the 23rd will offer opportunity for discussion and enable us to make a plan about the future division of labour among members - and that lots of people turn up with with ideas about what they are willing to contribute. I’m hopeful that these things play out better in person than on an online platform. If not, then I perhaps option 1 - cutting our losses and being hopeful about next year - would have been the better vote!

I would love to join in with the milling should anything go ahead with Wicker Windmill @darren4 but I think that would be more for my benefit rather than being of use. I could also make a couple of days time Dec - Feb if there was something that I could contribute to. Hope to discuss on the 23rd.

Hi team,

I’m so sorry for the awol silence! I think the #Ourfield team knew that this would be a big undertaking, and it’s always good to be transparent! In all honesty 3 of us have gone freelance since the project started, and personally I have had quite a large career and life change. So sorry to not update you enough! Thanks for being patient with us.

Okay I’ll do an blogpost update and then answer the questions above.

The spelt is being sent to Marriages the millers, who have been super amazing, for testing. It was sent a couple of weeks ago but hulled and the results came back jumbled. I sent again this week to arrive Monday and we should have the test results by the end of the week. It was fun taking John’s old sieve and sieving out the hulled grains, some had been dehulled during combining which was lucky! There was some weed seed (small dark ones, possibly cleavers?) in there, which gives me the impression it will need cleaning as we received some of the Wakelyns population last week which had been double cleaned and was so so clean, and could be planted or milled (Sadhbh and I made some bread with our new Mockmill freshly milled flour!).

We haven’t done that with the spelt yet as the mycotoxin level hasn’t been tested yet (also testing for ergot etc.), and it also isn’t the cleanest we’ve ever seen. I’m starting to understand the complexities of milling grade grain. When we receive the results back next week it will tell us these levels and also the protein level etc. which will indicate if the quality is good enough for milling. If not possibly we can chat with bakeries about the use for biscuit grain, also scout more about the possibility of distilling but maybe cross that bridge when we come to it :)

I’ll try and answer the questions below.

1. What would bakery pay for flour - if bakery who buys 1 tn get much better price than 100kg? Can bakers take it in 16 kg bags? or 30 kg bags?

It all depends on the quality, if it meets the grade etc. Infinity food sell wholesale spelt flour (organic mind you) for £2.05 per kg based on 25kg sacks (the standard we buy whole grain and flour in).

We have a few bakeries interested, and until we have concrete results we cannot approach to find out how much they would like. They often want this info and then to test the grain first.

1. What is the shelf life of spelt flour once it’s been through a stone mill?
   Wholegrains are ~6 months, I believe flour is 1-2 months. It also depends on which mill it runs through. Some run at lower speed, lower throughput and keep the grain cooler and thus keep longer, however unless you run the mill or have really tight ties to it it’s hard to tell.

2. Who or where will we store it once it's milled? and if we do end up selling flour who will take care of shipping it in and out, invoicing bakers etc? Is there is a co-op member who would want to take this on?

If this decision is chosen we will then make plans for the grain to be stored, we as the organising committee would then work together with any of the collective members who would love to be involved to make it happen.

1. If we get it milled in small quantities - where will we ship it to once it's milled and how will we distribute it to people from there?

On a ‘mill to order’ basis. We have a small desktop mill at our disposal enough to mill small quantities for the collective.

1. Are there any risks we don’t know about? like if it gets damp in a barn it will be a complete loss etc? can it get to the baker and then they send it back?

The grain may not make milling grade, then we look to biscuit and distilling and then we look to animal feed. To be honest distilling could have been one of the options here, and still might end up being one if we sell unhulled to the highest bidder. Yes to barn or field moisture, it could not make the grade. Also mycotoxin level. This is the fun of farming right? :)

Bakers usually want to try some, else go on the results of the testing. If they buy after either of those two options they generally have committed to sale (just as you buy flour in the shops!) unless they find something untoward.

Any more questions?

Happy to answer anything I can!

RE MORE OPTIONS

There are a number of additional options we could have chosen for the vote. These are the decisions farmers have to go through every year!! However we had to distill into about 4 as not to make making a decision to tricky and confusing for everyone. There are just so many options! Any suggestions we can add and try and work in, sorry for anyone not happy with the options!

RE EVENT AT E5

We have been so lucky to recive support for this project along the way by some amazing people and places, all of which this couldn’t be possible without. The time spent finding a venue is time the organising committee are struggling to find, and we are incredibly lucky and privileged that e5 have offered to host us. I understand the location is not easy for everyone to reach, however unfortubaltly due to our diverse collective this is always going to be a bit tricky. Sorry for any inconvenience, but they are the most awesome bakery! (I was there this morning for breakfast :)

Grain-y love,

Abi Aspen

p.s I have added this all into @darren4's document here! https://docs.google.com/document/d/1W_6E1zJuAC0PxursgEGdjYAppTjRDfg1ibAG41547DA/edit?usp=sharing

@abbyrose @annielandless @grahamehunter @johncherry please correct me if you think any of the above is wrong! :)

What to do with our spelt? Australian friends who live in Umbria who follow us on Loomio offered the following marketing idea for some of our spelt. Spelt is Faro in Italian. Brian and Lynne buy 'PUFFED SPELT' to include in their sugar free home concocted Meusli. See packet below.

"Dear Tony,
You might like to circulate this among your group as an option for marketing your spelt.
The translation is Farro = spelt. Soffiato = puffed Bio = organic al Naturale = natural - that is no added sugars or other ingredients.

I use it with oats and bran for home made muesli. Brian [Brian was Minister of Agriculture in South Australia and a dryland farmer. He has first hand experience of politics, the political economy of farming, of agronomy and of the food system.]

I send this message to indicate that I am keen to support the building of capacity to promote processing and marketing but think we need to highlight and discuss our capacity deficit. With the knowledge I have now I think we should adopt Option 1 although If the spelt is being stored in suitable conditions so that it can be used as seed I think we should put some aside for use as seed on the farm. If John thinks it is feasible.

I’m sending my apologies as I’m going to struggle to get to the OurField harvest celebration event on 23 November. I’d very much like to come but I’ve two other events I’m expected to attend 23 and 24 November & both are not in London.

@darren4 Hi, Darren, you wrote
_I've found it a bit frustrating at times not knowing what factors & information is informing the drafting of voting options..I think it would be nice if the information & discussions the organisers were having were more visible to the collective, _

well, most of the information leading to the choices which I put out to poll, came from you, Daniel, Tony Allen, and Wendy - all from postings in this forum.

It seemed to me as facilitator, that the cooperative needed to start focusing on a strategic direction, (eg if there was interest or not in becoming flour wholesalers, so going beyond "the farm gate" ) because, as you rightly point out, if we __ do __ wish to do that, there is a lot of additional work to be parcelled out, and costs to be calculated; yet if the majority of the collective simply wish to try and sell to one or two customers, then that simplifies the process.

There is perhaps an organisational lacuna here for determining strategies, which gap might perhaps be partly filled by having small groups of cooperative members with special interests to look into specific matters. For example, a group of issues which I think will be important is to examine
* the likely economics of continuing next year, and
* whether the number of cooperative members should be increased, (by accepting new members)
* or reduced, (by paying out those who wished to leave)
* whether the cooperative would take on the rest of the 14 ha. field of which the cooperative has an 8 ha. share
* a strike-price for new members coming in (basically to "buy out" John's 18 / 60 share, which seems anomalous), and
* the fairest method of determining the pay-out if some but not all members wished to stop.

Sadly, I am unable to attend on 23 November, as I am away until the next day. But I will be with you in spirit.

@abiaspen thank you for your update (and for answering @abbyrose’s questions, which I failed to reply to as I didn’t know the answers – sorry Abby). And @grahamehunter thank you for the accounts and questions about our future.

Also to say, I am very pleased that the event is at E5 Bakehouse. I’ve been meaning to visit the bakery for a while but haven’t made it so far. Thanks to anyone who is organising it :)

Abby you also asked me “I guess the issue is if we only want to mill a smaller portion of the grain into flour ourselves, say 2 tonnes, then Wrights maybe aren't keen to do that? or would they still do that? Do you think Brixton would do just 2 tonnes milled into flour for us to use if we paid them for it?” I’m guessing a bit, as I don’t want to keep contacting mills if I don’t have any new info to offer them, but I think Wrights and Brixton won’t want to mill 2 tonnes for us (respectively too small and large) but Wicken might be a good bet for this, if we chose to go down this route.

Very many thanks Abi and Grahame for substantial and very useful information.

I like very much your agenda of issues Grahame. How do we discuss? Do we want to set aside two hours before 7.00 pm for a discussion on 23 November. We need you and John at any such discussion and sadly you will not be there and John is clearly very busy. I sense we need another meeting although a discussion on 23 November could be a useful preliminary if we can organise a well chaired session.
I HAVE ASKED A NUMBER of times - do we want to put some seed aside to sow next year? Could I ask that we add this topic to your agenda. Could I suggest that we ask the investors/team/collective to add items to your agenda and begin to discuss on line initially.
Your idea that we evolve a form of division of labour is a good one. Something else to discuss. What would be the division? We first need to know whether John wants to continue. I hope he does. Here is a very preliminary draft list of activities:
1 Develop an on farm OurField three (???) year strategy and also make on farm decisions
2 Beyond the farm gate strategy on marketing and processing and retailing THIS IS THE BIG ISSUE. DO WE HAVE THE STOMACH FOR IT.
3 Reporting, accounting, budgeting and overall planning. Investor arrangements etc
4 .....
THANK YOU VERY MUCH Abi for devoting so much time to the project. Your message has moved things along very significantly.
Best Tony Allan

Slightly disappointed with myself, having missed the vote - having read everything I would have gone with option 3, giving us a focus now and a bit more time to explore options before making a final decision - although I see that wouldn't of effected the outcome.

There have been lots of interesting posts & I've got some ideas to add that I hope will be useful. Will post more when I've got the time to do a bit of research and write them up.

Thanks all for thoughts and votes, always so interesting to hear from everyone! Think we now need to wait for the test results from @abiaspen so we know that we can go ahead with option 4. Then @abiaspen and @grahamehunter will help us to figure out what's next from this proposal.

EVENT NEWS
The event was very much planned as a celebration with many people invited - please do invite along anyone you think would enjoy an evening celebrating harvest and talking a bit of grains!
Any of the OurField collective who would like to discuss selling the flour and possibilities of moving ahead next year should come an hour early, at 6.30. Then there could be an hours discussion before food and music start. We will get more details of the event to you shortly. In terms of the location E5 Bakehouse, one reason we picked it was because they have a mill on site and so can mill a small amount of our spelt for us on the night to take home and maybe even bake a few loaves with it. They are also incredibly supportive of what we are doing, so think it will be a wonderful atmosphere. I do understand concerns about finding it in the dark @johnanthonyallan & @nikireynolds so I will see if we can have a parking space for OurField members in the back. Then you can arrange car-shares meeting somewhere convenient. I will keep you up to date on whether this is possible!

On the night..Abby has suggested the bakers at E5 might

_ mill a small amount of our spelt for us on the night to take home and maybe even bake a few loaves with it. _

It sounds exciting; the sourdough baking method is quite lengthy (at least 20 hours from flour to loaf) so if we wanted some baked bread, we should send Ben some in advance..

Dear Abby
Many thanks for the additional detail on the 23 November event in Hackney. It will be an important event. Will John be able to spare time?
NOT MANY of us would want to drive to Hackney even from another part of north London. I mentioned parking only to warn about the problem for would-be drivers.

@wendyalcock

one possibility

Wendy wrote earlier, quoting Wrights Mill

_ Yes I am still happy to work with you on this project. I think we could manage 15 tonnes although it will cost you more to deliver it to our mill because of the smaller quantity. To progress this further I think we would like to see a sample of the grain first so we can establish the quality. _

_ If all is well we would take in the 15 tonnes (delivery to be arranged by you). _

Wendy, __ do you think you could ask if they can take un-hulled Spelt, and how much of a sample they would like for testing? __ We can then send it to them, much as I think - in parallel - Abby Glencross is already doing with Marriages Mill.

Hi Grahame. Yes, I can definitely ask Wrights if they can take un-hulled Spelt and how much of a sample they would like for testing? I'll email them now.

I've also been trying to get hold of another bigger mill - Shipton. @tamsynforsyth made initial contact by email and I've been trying to follow up with the MD by phone, but I haven't been able to get hold of him so far. I'll hopefully get chance to try again tomorrow and then report back.

Re the event on the 23rd. I shall come for 6.30 @abbyrose. I'm looking forward to chatting with others in person about the options we might have. One key learning of the project seems to be that people don't have much time to share ideas in writing / on Loomio. I know I only have a few times a week I can sit at a PC to type up my research and thoughts.

Hopefully John will be able to come to Hackney.. My partner doesn't want to drive to Hackney at night so I will try and travel on the trains alone if I can.. Out of the 40 investors maybe a handful of people will turn up..? As it will likely be the last time we meet I will probably do the trek if it's not pouring rain lol..

@wendyalcock Thanks for that Wendy. Yes, Loomio is not especially conducive to lively discourse; there are several comments by Tony Allen on the accounts page which I think he would like some members to comment on..

Perhaps _ if there are members of the co-operative who feel they have some time for the cause, _ _they could volunteer their names here _, and those - such as you Wendy - who seem to have undertaken several tasks contacting mills, arranging samples to go etc could then delegate some of your tasks to those volunteers?

Otherwise I feel the burden my fall unequally and cause eventual discord..

Furthermore since there are funds in hand belonging to the co-operative, __ if some tasks (visiting mills, preparing or shipping samples etc) incurred costs __, there seems to me no reason why these out-of-pockets should not be reclaimed by co-operative members, even through this forum so it is transparent to all.

@abiaspen did you hear back from Marriges yet? You said last week:

"The spelt is being sent to Marriages the millers, who have been super amazing, for testing. It was sent a couple of weeks ago but hulled and the results came back jumbled. I sent again this week to arrive Monday and we should have the test results by the end of the week."

I have to admit that I've never quite got the hang of Loomio!

Sent from iCloud9

The E5 Bakehouse event
Thank you Wendy for all you are doing and for making a start on the agenda for the 6.30 pm session in Hackney. I have incorporated your topics in a more detailed DRAFT DRAFT agenda. I expect it to be edited by the four founders. I hope it helps them. Apologies Grahame for suggesting that you update the on farm account and for asking for a paragraph. Your comments would be very welcome.
For some reason Loomio will not let me paste in the DRAFT agenda. I shall try to do this with another comment. Best Tony

DRAFT E5 Bakehouse Agenda
I could not paste the DRAFT agenda into a comment. I am trying to attach it. A first for me on Loomio. I hope it works. Best Tony

volunteers wanted to help sieve our Spelt

Abi is going to arrange access to the large barn with John this coming weekend 18th or 19th November. What is required, are a few volunteers to _ come to Baldock, to help sieve some of the spelt _ so that around 100kg can be taken by car to E5 for milling before th eHarvest Festival event on 23 November. She predictes this may take 4 or 5 hours.

I am sure that the Co-operative funds can stand the expense of __ re-imbursing the volunteers their travel costs from London, and buying them a decent lunch in the pub.__

sign up here, please