_ Were it possible, I should like to encourage more contributors.. and more questions from lay people without much expertise, with their questions being answered by others in the group who know more. Certainly lots has been said, but perhaps by too few people.. _

@annielandless
This comment was posted by Annie elsewhere, but seems relevant to the current vote on crops selection. I have shortened it, but left the link..

She wrote..

_ I did some digging for info on companion cropping at ORFC 17 -- maybe this is helpful for people to contact/ info which was shared at the conference: _
_ • Another memorable session was on companion cropping, led by Jonty Brunyee of the Pasture Fed Livestock Association and the speakers included Andy Howard, an arable farmer from Kent and a Nuffield scholar, and Ian Wilkinson from Cotswold Seeds...Andy provided examples from around the world of how two or sometimes even three crops were being harvested each year from a single field by using intercropping and companion cropping. He particularly saw great opportunity for growing peas alongside wheat, oats or barley and presented the opportunity to undersow maize with other crops so as to prevent the erosion issues that are common with the crop. _

This link is a more personal take on a general link to the conference supplied earlier by Abi Aspen
@abiaspen

Source: https://thinkingcountry.com/2017/01/06/my-visit-to-the-oxford-real-farming-conference-2017/

Tristram you wrote with your vote _ but I am not against spelt if a harvestable pulse can be grown as it's companion._. The answer is this is not an option, because the spelt is so much taller - up to 4 ft - than regular wheat and so whatever is grown with is is going to be an understory and will be shaded out by the spelt.

So, to clarify, __ if you want to grow spelt vote NO, but know that the companion planting, albeit useful for other reasons, will not be a harvestable, viable crop. __

I'm still not ready to choose but will get there by Sunday. From the last decision it was clear that growing the crop with companion crop reduced the likelihood of the end result being suitable for human consumption which makes me lean more towards naked oats first then to spelt second. Both provide a secondary positive impact on the soil for the next year from either of these. @johncherry is it possible to take soil samples before and after to demonstrate the effect of the companion crop for soil building and compare this with samples taken from another field without the companion crop - or using a patch of the field without a companion crop to provide a baseline - obviously just a crude indicator. Decisions decisions...

I have been a bit busy in office hours this week and had limited success talking to anyone who may be interested in buying but was told to fire off a few emails. Awaiting replies to some of these.

I had an email response from the chairman of Doves Farm today saying that they would only buy certified organic produce and wishing us luck with the project - and I did mention that spelt was an option we were considering. If this is true it leaves me wondering where we may sell 20-50 tonnes of spelt?

I spoke to Holly from Grown in Totnes who was at the Our Field launch event in London. She said that the naked oats had incredible amounts of irritating hairs, so annoying, that their grower & his son vowed to never plant it again. They have to be polished from the seed before its rolled. They have all the equipment to do this at a small (industrial) scale. As far as I can see there is no ready bulk market for naked oats other than as animal feed, They dont really get used for human food - except for very limited specialist health/raw food outlets.

As John had previously mentioned there is no ready market for faba beans for human consumption unless they are shipped to Africa. Otherwise they are used for animal feed. I considered contacting Hodmedods who do sell faba (organic, non organic and faba flour), but havent had time and imagine they will have adequate supplies lined up - but guess it may be worth someone trying to contact them?

All this is making me think that currently the best result, if we want all the produce to go for human food, may well be to grow oats and sell them onto the commodities markets. If we were lucky I guess we may be able to find a mill that would be prepared to mill our oats separately and returning some to us, and then we could have a go at marketing some ourselves and have some of our own produce.

Thanks everyone for the spreadsheets and contacting people! I have no idea what I will choose just yet. But I just contacted Hodmedods to see if they would be interested in our Fava beans - will feedback to the group when I hear back from them...

One thing I have always wondered @johncherry - in terms of the companion crop. If we go with something like clover or an understory crop that is there to nourish the soil then obviously all of the benefits of that plant will be kept in the soil for next year. However if we go for the fava beans, we will harvest the crop and the beans are full of many of the nutrients so we will actually be taking some of the nutrients away from the field. Does that mean that companion crops (or cover crops) that are also harvested are actually less good for the soil in the long run? Or am I thinking too simplistically here?

Very interested to hear the answer to this as I've been making the same presumption.

Me too. Would love to have an answer on this before I vote!

Ok I just spoke to Hodemedods...they said in principle they would be very interested in the fava beans...but that also it's complicated....I have tried to summarise what they said below:

One issue: Generally they only buy whole fava beans from north of the Humber river because the Bruchid Beatle hasn’t reached there. However, we may not have as much of an issue with it as we are companion cropping, and also you can spray for it in June to prevent the eggs from hatching in the beans - so we could consider doing that. (http://www.pgro.org/index.php/pest-monitoring-services/bruchid-beetle)
At the small quantity we are producing they would only be able to sell them as whole beans, the processing to split them etc would be too expensive.
If we are able to produce fava beans with no Bruchid beatle problem, then Hodmedods would buy if they met their specifications for human consumption…(they said they could send these through) - at these quantities the spec would have to be particularly high as they would need to sell them for more, to cover the higher transport costs.

Also as our beans will be non-organic the price is more variable…Hodemedods are not selling on the commodities market so they are less vulnerable to the price changes but the prices for fava beans are still pegged to the commodities market and so the price we can get for non-organic will depend on the Australian harvest and how that impacts the commodities price. Apparently prices can vary from £120 - £220/tne depending on markets.
Hodmedods seemed very excited about the project and definitely saw that there could be a benefit to selling our beans on their store separately with the story along with them, and that this could potentially have an added value...but that this would be something they would have to think about.
They also mentioned that one of the big advantages of fava beans is that if we don’t meet the human consumption standards then we can always sell them as animal feed and recover some of our costs.

One other thing Hodmedods did say is that you can brew beer from Fava beans (https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2016/05/fava-beans-brewed-for-eco-friendly-beer/) …and suggested maybe @tristramstuart your company TOAST ale would consider doing a fava bean IPA brew? Apparently an Edinburgh brewery made a delicious IPA using fava beans. What do you think about that?

Thanks Abby this is helpful. Having just walked past a local wholefood shop I now have a packet of Hodmedod's whole dried Fava beans and will try them out tomorrow and see if that sways my vote! Also thinking about roasted bean snacks. If we can avoid the Bruchid Beatle by using this as a companion crop and meet the specification for human consumption we could have an outlet for the beans but if we get the beetle then the beans go for animal/fish consumption. Not sure whether dried beans need to dry in the field and if that would work with timing for wheat harvesting.

Although I cannot vote, I do think it may be a pity to eschew growing Spelt on grounds that some mills prefers to buy and sell organic product. The market for Spelt is expanding beyond being a niche product, and I expect its' popularity to grow rapidly as more people come to understand the various benefits of this grain. I now bake bread almost entirely with Spelt (not organic); and many artisan bakers and even supermarkets have introduced Spelt loaves.

There is definitely a market for the grain, in its non-organic manifestation; and it commands higher prices than regular wheat - but of course it has a lower yield and the seed costs more.

It does not need repeating now, and certainly OurField Weston group should be familiar with the argument, that conservation agriculture as practiced at Weston _ can be better for the soil and nutrition than organic methods _ - so I resist being intimidated by claims from health shops and specialty retailers who have developed an organic market..they may be left behind.

Looking beyond this year alone, I think it would be best to go with an option that optimises soil health in the long run.

I would be interested in knowing more about the (long-term) benefit to the soil of a companion crop like fava beans vs. a companion under-story. Is there any convincing evidence to suggest one is better than the other for the soil? I'm sure it's probably more nuanced / complex than this but if anyone has any insight on this, I'm all ears!

@tessatricks @matteodv It's not a scientific source but I think this answers your question well. http://www.gardenbetty.com/2013/10/planting-fava-beans-as-a-fall-cover-crop/

Basically, yes, I believe nitrogen fixing plants can be eaten and still give a benefit to the soil as long as the roots are left behind. Unless others with more experience know more?

One thing to note is that, all being in the Fabaceae family, we shouldn't sow legumes/clover/trefoil every year as they should also be rotated.

@annielandless Talgarth mill sounds lovely :) Would you like me to send them my standard email and see if they get in touch or do you want to do it once the vote's finished maybe?

Yes please go ahead and email Talgarth mill! Would be great to hear there thoughts and I'm quite strapped for time at the moment!

Just a very big list of wind and water mills grouped into region if we think we have time to do more searching - some will be small mills but you never know we may find one ready to experiment with us. List comes together for national mills weekend in May. http://www.nationalmillsweekend.co.uk/index.htm

Sorry, just realised that there are a few outshtanding questions various people have put to me. The answer normally is: I don't know. This is uncharted territory for us. In terms of the benefit conferred by the legumes in the mix, it has to be said that from the legumes point of view, feeding the Rhizobia bacteria that nodulate on their roots is quite expensive in energy terms, ie they have to give the bacteria a lot of sugar to get the nitrogen back. They aren't going to want to give that to the wheat/spelt or whatever. Some will trickle across, if a plant is swamped out by the crop and the roots die back, any N there is available to the crop. In theory. A lot of what we do is preparing for next year. Not much help to you guys, who want to see a profit this time, but there it is. There are other benefits to companions, in terms of weed suppression, disease limitation, pest confusion and symbiotic mycorrhizal intereaction. But I wouldn't like to give that a value that you could put a pound sign against. We'll perhaps leave a strip across the field all lonely, with no companions, and see if it does better or worse.

I'm loving the debate and can't wait to see what wins...

Very tough choice and thank you for the nudge @grahamehunter, time has escaped me! I've been toddling between wheat/beans and spelt. I'm keen to explore how we could develop a market for the beans - I've had some of the bean beer before and it's grand. @johncherry you mention you have a lot of these lying about, could I look at sourcing some from you and doing some experimenting?

After much deliberation I'm going to go for spelt - I think challenging the market with a non-organic but no till alternative could, one, be beneficial for raising the profile of spelt in general and, two, could be an avenue for opening up the no-till discussion with a grain that starting to gain traction

Help yourself, we've got a nice little pile. I'll be using some for spring seed, but they'll be plenty left.

Grand! Think I could pay a visit one morning over the next couple of weekends to pick some up/get some fresh air?

For anyone interested I did a bit of quick reading on naked oats. Decided not to go with it because although they are eaten by humans I'm worried we won't find a good way to process them. It seems like they often end up as animal feed. They can be used for brewing though! Apparently they make very good straw too. In the end spelt feels safer to grow something marketable and I'm excited about finding a mill who will process it!

http://www.fwi.co.uk/news/naked-oats-energy-boost-finds-followers.htm

http://www.premiumcrops.com/spring-naked-oats.html

https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/naked-oats.15681/

https://cereals.ahdb.org.uk/media/335860/pr352_complete_final_report.pdf

http://northerngraingrowers.org/wp-content/uploads/OATS.pdf

http://www.quoats.org/documents/Oats%20-%20From%20breeder%20to%20market%20book.pdf

Hi, I am sorry to have missed the vote. My fault. Other areas of life seemed to take over even as I was reading and thinking through the opinions and options and references. Am a bit down about that. Anyway, well done to all who have contributed. Its fascinating. I agree and disagree with so much, perhaps in almost equal measure. Very interesting and enlightening to read what others are thinking. So, apologies again, and thank you all for your contributions, even for those I disagree with.

It would be very useful indeed to have comments from Richard Harding on the outcome of the vote. If he has time.

a privacy issue has arisen..

See my note in the admin thread, posted after I noticed some members wishing to exchange addresses etc.

If you exchange personal information on the Loomio site - _even if you are logged in _, - be aware it is in a public forum, so visible to anyone _ not just other members of this group.._

So, if you would like me to send your private emails to other members of the group - in a way that they are __ NOT visible to the general public__ - then _ please let me know without disclosing your email addresses on Loomio _ (as I already know all the members' contact information)

@alexandrasexton @alfredlawrie @andreadibiagio @averilglencross @catherinearend @christinelewis @danielkindred @darren4 @edibleutopia @edna @ellemcall @emersoncsorba @carolingoethel1 @harryboglione @harrygreenfield1 @jamestickell @johnanthonyallan @karlschneider @lucybradley1 @matteodv @matthewshribman @nikireynolds @nikitagulhane @romymiller @sadhbhmoore @seangifford @sebastianpowell @shyamdesai @sineadfenton @stevenjacobs @stinewilhelmsen @tamsynforsyth @tessatricks @tristramstuart @veronicalopesdasil1 @wendyalcock @johncherry

happy to share privately

Cheers Grahame.

I want to send you some stills and with Fiona's permission a couple of videos for the site. There will be a Dropbox folder for you soon. Anything specific you would like?

All the best and thanks for being our moderator

Catherine 😀

Hi Catherine, bucolic shots of happy erstwhile farmers in the idyllic landscape of Weston?

To all
We have a problem.
There may be no spring Spelt seed in the country.
If this is the case, then I have requested John to move directly to the second selection of which crop to plant - namely __ a modern wheat variety with a beans companion cash crop - __ _ unless at least 10 members of the group write to me here or at gnlh01@gmail.com to say they particularly think we should have a second vote on the matter _ (at which, wheat and beans, oats and companion crop, naked oats and companion crop, would be offered as the 3 options.

the deadline for telling me you think we should have a whole new vote, is midnight 28 March 2017.

If fewer than 10 persons think this, John will continue to hunt about for suitable Spelt seed, and then default to wheat and beans when he runs out of time.

_ Any members of the group who think they can help source 1.5 tonnes of Spring Spelt seed, should leap into action, and get on the phone! _
@abbyrose @alexandrasexton @alfredlawrie @andreadibiagio @annielandless @averilglencross @catherinearend @christinelewis @danielkindred @darren4 @edibleutopia @edna @ellemcall @emersoncsorba @carolingoethel1 @harryboglione @harryboglione @harrygreenfield1 @jamestickell @johnanthonyallan @abiaspen @karlschneider @lucybradley1 @matteodv @matthewshribman @nikireynolds @nikitagulhane @romymiller @sadhbhmoore @seangifford @sebastianpowell @shyamdesai @sineadfenton @stevenjacobs @stinewilhelmsen @tamsynforsyth @tessatricks @tristramstuart @veronicalopesdasil1 @wendyalcock @johncherry

Problem with spelt seed
I do not see the point in growing a modern wheat variety. I think we should have another vote unless John advises that getting oats seeds will also be a problem.

I agree about another vote being a good idea

Sent from iCloud9

I would like to have another vote as I don't want to grow wheat.. I don't like wheat and would rather have oats if we can't have spelt.. I will try and hunt down spelt seed as I am a brilliant hunter and researcher in the meantime.. 🐰

I am okay with going for second choice of Wheat and beans without another crop. Shame if we can't find enough Spelt seed but time must be a critical aspect now. We must remember we voted for the maybe not human feed crop by opting for companion crops in which case optimising farming technique for sustainable outcomes is needed.

I'm not surprised there is a lack of spelt seed at the moment. It has become hugely popular again in recent years which when this has happened in the past did pull the price down post harvest as there was suddenly so much of it.

Also worth noting is that although spelt is from older varieties of cereals it is a type of wheat and the two main varieties of spelt normally available, Frankenkorn and Zollernspelt are modern versions of the original spelt.
It still comes with attractive qualities of nutrition and taste and can be a hardy cereals once established in the ground.
I'm of the view that the ideal is whatever we all can agree with John would work best in this field during this year. But I also think that its very good if we can also think ahead and consider lessons learnt, quite a few already, to contemplate for future such projects, here and/or elsewhere.
Emmer? Einkorn? Some of Andy Forbes' or John Letts' heritage varieties?
But, many of the heritage varieties they are working with are not spring cereals, I'm thinking for the autumn sowing.
If we cannot get spelt this spring, I am OK for the second option. But I am also OK to give a little more time for sourcing seed if that is available and to help us all find a way through this particular challenge.

@grahamehunter @johncherry I have sourced some spelt seed.. It is £800 a tonne and available to be delivered before April.. Can I telephone you or John ASAP?

The crucial thing is that it needs to be Spring Spelt seed Niki. Apparently most, if not all, Spelt grown in the UK is winter sown as it has a vernalisation requirement, ie it needs winter weather as a trigger before it will form seed heads later in the year. Please telephone though

@john cherry yes I see.. They got back to me to say it was winter spelt seed.. Seems there is no spring spelt seed available to buy right now.. A shame.. Hope we can have another vote

I'm very keen to grow something other than wheat, so would prefer to have another vote - unless, as Tony says, John advises that sourcing oats or other non-wheat options will also be problematic.

I totally agree on growing something other than wheat which is boring to me as I don't eat it! I do hope oat seed is available otherwise we are stuck with wheat😕

I would also prefer having another vote if Spelt isn't available

There will be another vote about the crop..

@abbyrose @alexandrasexton @alfredlawrie @andreadibiagio @annielandless @averilglencross @catherinearend @christinelewis @danielkindred @darren4 @edibleutopia @edna @ellemcall @emersoncsorba @carolingoethel1 @harryboglione @harryboglione @harrygreenfield1 @jamestickell @johnanthonyallan @abiaspen @karlschneider @lucybradley1 @matteodv @matthewshribman @nikireynolds @nikitagulhane @romymiller @sadhbhmoore @seangifford @sebastianpowell @shyamdesai @sineadfenton @stevenjacobs @stinewilhelmsen @tamsynforsyth @tessatricks @tristramstuart @veronicalopesdasil1 @wendyalcock @johncherry

Sufficient people have voiced concern about sliding into a modern-wheat-with-beans default second choice, that __ I will set up a second vote on the matter.__

The new proposal will go up on Thursday night 30th March and will be open until Sunday night midnight.
_Please use the time before Thursday to air particular hopes of what may be included in the options that will be put to the vote _ (but _ please also understand that the final selection is one which John will determine with Richard Harding based on seed availability, and suitability for the field..)_