Loomio
Mon 14 Apr 2014 3:12PM

Openstreetmap.in do we really want to make this happen ?

DU Deleted User Public Seen by 16

please refer to the discussion so far with respect to the openstreetmap.in domain here https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-in/2013-June/001829.html , i wanted to move this item either way from my list of items to do hence this discussion.

IC

Ishan Chattopadhyaya Tue 15 Apr 2014 7:42AM

@satyakamgoswami Please don't get me wrong. I appreciate your enthusiasm and support this initiative. That's why I mentioned, in principle I agree with the proposition. However, this is not an appropriate forum for any discussions on the issue. Previously, discussions on the topic have happened at talk-in@ and I don't see any reason why discussions there can result in "talks going on without owning things" and a different outcome can happen if such discussions happen here.

More discussions should happen on @sanjaybhangar's concerns on updates. There are many other concerns that need to be addressed, but none of these appear as blockers to me.

IC

Ishan Chattopadhyaya Tue 15 Apr 2014 7:46AM

let me clarify this proposal is not mine
I don't really care. The proposal is good.

its now open on mailing list , feel free to propose
whatever you think is your take on this topic
anywhere. again i am sticking to this platform to
brainstorm.

This "my way or the highway" attitude can be really detrimental to the cause for which all of us have so far remained deeply united and passionate about.

DU

Deleted User Tue 15 Apr 2014 7:50AM

@ishanchattopadhyay its not about anyone's ego's here yes i wanted to shake the hornets nest and come quickly to a decision , i own the domain name anyone interested in owning it are free to raise there hand and do whatever they want with it .
Coming back to the issues which @sanjaybhangar mentioned how do you think its an non issue ? Can you list the concerns which are like blockers .

DU

Deleted User Tue 15 Apr 2014 8:00AM

@sumandro the doc is open for edit with link so feel free to make any changes. i think lazy consensus is a difficult one on this one since there are many stakeholders, resources and unknowns we are dealing. i do not want this proposal to fall through the gap and five years from now we are again talking same.

SB

Sanjay Bhangar Tue 15 Apr 2014 8:07AM

@satyakamgoswami i'm fine using this space to discuss as long as someone summarizes / copies the discussions over to the mailing list and a final decision is taken only after it has been put on the ML. I do feel that many may not sign-up for a new platform and shouldn't be excluded from the process.

About the updates question, I really know nothing about the OSM tech-stack apart from spending one day setting it up on my laptop for kicks, so people who are more knowledgeable will need to answer to that. It's really more just a common-sense type question and getting the sense that this may not be a trivial to do. I definitely think this question is a blocker though - its totally possible there is some easy solution that I am not aware of, but until this is figured out, we need to think hard about why we want our own instance if it is going to create a hard fork, and if there are ways to accomplish what we need without creating a hard fork of the OSM data.

From looking at Arun's proposal, it seems like some ideas are around better localized styling, labelling, etc. A lot of that stuff seems like it can happen without forking the data / using main OSM to store canonical data and just creating differently styled front-ends. This should happen anyways if Arun / anyone else is willing to contribute styles and designs, I don't see any good reason not to have more styles and styles better suited to local conditions.

I think the big sticky point is: "Conform to local laws pertaining to the display of India’s external boundaries". I think this is a big reason why many institutions and people are looking for an India-specific OSM, so that we can use OSM for government / education projects without getting into trouble with the law. Is there a way to do this without hard forking OSM? Or just show the "legal" boundaries for the india OSM but have all other data remain synced / being pulled from the main OSM? Here is where I have no idea how the stack works / how this maybe accomplished, but I think needs to be addressed.

It maybe useful to split up the use-cases into things that can be accomplished without forking data, and things that would require forking of data, and then see if someone has a tech solution to the problem.

If we are going to hard-fork OSM to create an india-specific version, I really think we need to think long and hard before doing so as it seems quite dangerous.

DU

Deleted User Tue 15 Apr 2014 8:24AM

i wanted this space to be like SIG. Absolutely no decision will be taken in isolation , the whole discussion i will document and take back to mailing list or OSM Wiki.

me too have no clue about how are we going to handle the updates ,there are more experienced people on this group who can talk about it .

AG

Arun Ganesh Tue 15 Apr 2014 9:14AM

@sanjaybhangar
Forking the data:
Not required, one would still make edits to the main db and we can just update the tiles using daily dumps or minutely diffs. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Planet.osm/diffs#Minute.2C_Hour.2C_and_Day_Files_Organisation

Borders:
Its fairly trivial to create another postgres table with the borders we want and have mapnik render that instead of the default ones.

AG

Arun Ganesh Tue 15 Apr 2014 9:17AM

Btw, the idea of forking the data is not part of the proposal in any way. This is more about custom tiles and customized location based services like http://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html

DU

Deleted User Tue 15 Apr 2014 10:34AM

Thanks to @ishanchattopadhyay the document has been converted to a wiki page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/IN:Proposal feel free to contribute.

DU

Deleted User Tue 15 Apr 2014 10:39AM

can everyone give there OSM handles in order to quote on the wiki page.

DT

Devdatta Tengshe Wed 16 Apr 2014 6:06AM

Firstly, my OpenStreetmaps User page is: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Devdatta

I see that there are multiple issues that we are discussing here. Firstly do we want an India specific page with differently styled tiles? The answer is a resounding Yes.

The second about whether discussion should happen here or on the mailing list: I have no hard position on this.

The third sticking point about the technical difficulties and whether we should fork the database or not. I say that we should cross the bridge when we come to it. Once we all agree that this should be done, a group of technically proficient people should look into how exactly it can be done. (I agree with Arun's comment, that this can be done without forking the database). it shouldn't be a blocker for the decision to go forward.

Let us first agree that this should be done, and set up a committee of interested persons who want to take responsibility. All the detailed decisions can be taken after due discussion.

DU

Deleted User Wed 16 Apr 2014 1:36PM

So technically we will not be forking , but will be using the existing data with styled tiles . What are the Legal angles to it i recall Survey of India going after Google for just conducting a Mapathon , technically on the same basis they can come after the OSM community too .
http://www.medianama.com/2013/04/223-issues-that-survey-of-indias-complaints-against-googles-mapathon-raises-about-indias-maps-policy/

SB

Sanjay Bhangar Mon 21 Apr 2014 8:05PM

So, to setup a Tileserver that just provides custom styles would definitely be nice and I see no issues (just someone needs to do the work).

A big motivation for this is definitely to be able to create "legal" borders for India to be able to use OSM in govt. / educational projects, etc. This does involve "forking" the data and there are issues we need to deal with there. However, after a discussion with Sajjad as well, I am led to believe by people who know more than me, that this is a problem that can be figured out (though may not be trivial).

Anyways, so in principle I think this is a good project, and its great to see the enthusiasm around it - it will require a bunch of work to get up and running and sustained maintainence though, so this should be discussed, and that discussion is probably better had on the ML :-)

DU

Deleted User Thu 1 May 2014 7:43AM

@sajjadanwar agree to what everyone says , this topic has been lying dormant for last 1.5 years , i am happy things have moved a bit further.This proposal as planned on loomio will be closing on this site in next 7 hours , thanks to everyone who participated .

I@

[email protected] Wed 14 May 2014 5:40AM

There could be legal issues. Just make sure we are legally (allowed by Indian laws) allowed to run map server in India.