Loomio
Thu 10 May 2018 3:44PM

Vincient

TS Ticon Storay Public Seen by 288

This thread is to discuss the desired outcome/boundaries that is wanted from the community. This includes the rights/abilities to come back to the farm ranging from doing business with the farm(like giving a tour), coming back as a guest, working with the community as a companion plant, or rejoining the community.

D

Dani Thu 10 May 2018 4:27PM

At present I am uncomfortable with returning to the farm when Vincent is in a position of power such as a Pillar role, and would be checking the current roster when deciding on time at the farm.

I cannot say with certainty what circumstance would change that feeling in the future. I think having clear policy and team strength of skills for declining to engage in gossip or 'venting' about the actions of others would go a long way.

TS

Ticon Storay Thu 10 May 2018 5:16PM

I'm not sure that you know but vincient is currently off the farm, living at rasta steves. The discussion is about what roles/access he will have after his month break was over.

TS

Ticon Storay Thu 10 May 2018 5:21PM

Currently he was off a month and due to an uninvited visit there was a indirect request to extent that month from the time of his last visit. In order to do this based on current agreement we need consent and the needed communication. Neither of those thing happened and now we are in a grey area, planning to have him over next week for a resolution circle.

JR

Joshua Reed Thu 10 May 2018 6:15PM

Companion Plant (my understanding) - A member of the farm that is a close ally, that aids the farm on specific projects. They have and continue to help us out when they can. Just like companion plants in a guild they help build up mulch for the ground and nutrients for the surrounding environment. These members are able to offer advise in, however lack the ability to have a vote in decision making. Every tree has beneficial plants around to help nurture and feed to the ecosystem. Time frame on farm is specific for each project. Meals and Lodging covered.

Resolution Circle did happen a couple of times and ended with Vincent saying no to the Communities Decision for time apart. And then telling us all it is all our problems. Maybe it wasnt "Ticon Standard Resolution Circle" but to everyone on the farm at the time it did happen, several times.

I see Vincent as a Companion Plant. My one heavy interaction with him still have compassion and love for him. I think at the restorative circle is when length of time away from the farm is set. I think it all is case specific for time away. I think readdressing in the Core Meetings of a quick check in to setup a time or do it then to see where people are emotional to see about reintegrating to visits and staying on the farm. I see it beneficial for him staying at Rasta's and helping out there to tend to that space. I see growth in all sides and could be beneficial to address rejoining the Trunk program in the flow.

Boundaries for all, I think are our what we are saying our Community Living Agreements are. We are an alcohol free farm, respect the spaces, people and animals, leave no trace, being mindful of personal property and farm property, letting community know about arrival at earliest point possible(visit i'm open for decision i have no problem with visits after the agreement of distance has been met), open for a decision about how to deal with sheets/bedding/towels and that matter for companion plants, able to stay on the farm without causing heavy disharmony in communal settings, and as much love as he can give

BL

Babbs lovin Sat 2 Jun 2018 4:49PM

I had written out my thoughts and feelings a few weeks ago on this subject but never posted it. I've decided to erase it and start fresh since I do not feel the same as when I wrote it...

After the talk and release circle with Vincent yesterday at the beach I do not feel comfortable with him/his energy being a part of the farm.

I felt very disappointed at the end of the circle. I observed he is still not fully taking accountability or ownership for his actions, words and energy and how they may effect other people. When he was talking at certain times I felt very uneasy just in the manner he was expressing himself (such as tone of voice and body language).

Ticon, I will not tell you who you can or cannot do business with of course. But if I'm going to be a core member of Finca Morpho, I don't wish for the farm to do business with him. Such as giving tours, being a companion plant, etc...

JR

Joshua Reed Sat 2 Jun 2018 11:43PM

@ticonstoray if you are not going to be here next week, I don't think it would be best to have Vincent start his special project for you on Finca Morpho.

JR

Joshua Reed Mon 4 Jun 2018 1:12PM

At this point reflecting and seeing how I truly feel about my experiences with Vincent, I only see Vincent as an Employee of Ticon's and not a companion plant. Boundaries I have are that he only work on days Ticon is here and active, for half days and meals to be away from communal kitchen, will respect the requests given to him by any Core Member, and all the basic agreements. I also feel uncomfortable do the electricity maintenance at Rasta's with him living there.

TS

Ticon Storay Mon 4 Jun 2018 5:11PM

We can have more discussion about how this can work, but employees don't take any orders from any core members, they can work whenever I need them on the farm, they are also not subject to any agreements.

What is the desire/perception for not wanting him as a companion plant?

JR

Joshua Reed Mon 4 Jun 2018 7:47PM

If that is how you want your employees and anyone working for you do that then so be. You are going to do what you want. If you want him here then have him here. I will find somewhere else to go. Basically I have no trust for Vincent and don't want him on the farm at all. You are the only person that wants Vincent here on the farm.

Why do you want him on the farm so bad?

D

Dani Mon 4 Jun 2018 11:17PM

Has Vincent been asked to state why he wants to be at the farm? Whether he understands why people don't trust him, whether he wants to work on those relationships in order to stay, what he thinks that will take and how he might go about it?

I wonder this and also, if he has someplace else he could go in order to develop other requested skills for a period of time before returning since others feel so strongly that they would issue an ultimatum such as Joshua has done here.

Having not been present at the circle I don't know what has been requested of him so far other than a willingness to sit in the circle and receive the feedback. From my own observations it has been the manipulation of people as 'favored' or 'unfavored' through sharing time and treats, as well as spreading gossip by venting that puts people in a position of taking sides (creating division instead of unity) that requires change.

TS

Ticon Storay Tue 5 Jun 2018 3:36PM

Josh gave an ultimatum when we talked about Dax as well. He is upset because when trying to talk about his feelings he was being aggressive towards Vincent and it didn't end with him getting what he wanted. He was asking him questions that had no correct answer, kind of like a parents asks "why did you do that" and keeps asking no matter what you say. He left the circle after vincent ask him to stop talking because he continued barraiding him.

The current plan was to have him come and work from 8-11 ish each weekday on planting related projects. No meals, no communal meetings, no interactions with the community. What we are talking about now is whether i need to do what josh requests because of his emotionally charged feelings. Which is to tell him he is not a companion plants and therefore not part of the community, but he needs to listen to core members and respect community agreements. It just doesn't make any sense.

What i said was true, Geiner does not take order/requests from members, he doesn't need me to work with him, and he doesn't have a clue about any of our agreements. So if/when i bring on new employees that will be the same deal. I'm not hiring people to have a group of bosses and expectations. So if i'm to bring him on as an employee I was making it clear that he isn't a farm employee, no hires working for the farm work for the community.

I want to work with him because he has skills and abilities that farm could use, as well as that i have seen a lack in community support that led to the outcome of this event. I instructed to community on what to do to prevent this in the kitchen and it was not adhered to and this was the result.

JR

Joshua Reed Tue 5 Jun 2018 4:05PM

I left the circle because of the back and forth and no one stepping in to stop it, seem to be a lack of a heart keeper or not keeping things on track by the facilitator. When I was getting around to speaking Vincent keep interrupting me while I had the stick, after being asked by Vincent previously to allow the person with the stick to speak. And I only asked my question twice and it was "Why do you think you can say no to a request to leave by the community?" and the first time I wasn't clear on his answer so i asked again. That is when the back and forth started to happen. Then another question was asked by another member of the circle and Vincent kept saying to answer your question Josh. The back and forth was a cause from different point of views of how things occurred and assumptions by of us.

The fact that you say no one adhered to your request is the result of all is this doesn't take into account that a lot of other factors. What I hear out of that statement "i have seen a lack in community support that led to the outcome of this event. I instructed to community on what to do to prevent this in the kitchen and it was not adhered to and this was the result. " is that no one tried anything but you, and is very hurtful. I was on Vincent's side until the first heavy interaction. Talking to him at and also setting up times for people to talk to him to try to help with all the people that were getting effected by his emotions and energy. The fact that one person has so many bad experiences with others on the farm and tells everyone that is their fault and takes no responsibility for their emotions and actions shows a lot of a person. Then when I tried take responsibility away he would come to me be " i have changed, i'm ready, I need this, Its healing for me".

My emotional feeling I am feeling now towards him is DisTrust and do not wish to be around the toxin energy that i feel from him. The "ultimatum" of leaving is that I don't have to be here when he is here. I can be at other places than Finca Morpho during the times of certain toxic energies I no longer wish to be around.

There are also the feeling of others that don't wish to be around him besides me.

TS

Ticon Storay Tue 5 Jun 2018 4:39PM

I did try to stop it, i told you he had answered and you said it wasn't an answer. Your energies in the this situation, in the situation with Luigi, in the situation with meat pan and further the situations with Dax, show a pattern for your ability to handle people as well. Hence why i said you should look inside. The way you talked to him was as if you were an angry parent. If you want more reflection on this we can do a talk with Devon and the other people present.

He did take credit for the way he behaved, you just were not there. When he said there were 4 people crying that day, he was saying that he was the 4th person. There are many things you miss in communication with people by not being able to manage your own feelings.

I told the core to split up the day and take control of the kitchen by taking responsibility. It didn't happen and the situation continued. I didn't say to try something else. I knew what i was talking about when it came to responsibly perceptions and balanced sharing of workload by core members.

I haven't asked anyone to be around him. In fact people have went out of their way to ensure or try to ensure that they don't have to see him. I've offered space for people to discuss their feelings as I will continue to do.

JR

Joshua Reed Tue 5 Jun 2018 4:52PM

I would love to have a talk about it all with a skilled facilitator in conflict resolution.

TS

Ticon Storay Wed 6 Jun 2018 1:02AM

Or try again? Maybe we can record it so to eliminate speculation.

HC

Heather Crawford Wed 6 Jun 2018 2:15PM

The questions raised by Danielle are indeed very important. It’s too simplistic to blame Vincent’s behavior on him being in a stressful position. There are many who would’ve handled similar stress without treating people like he did, and this has been an on-going behavioral issue since last season (and, as I understand, in other communities as well). I, for one, did everything I could to mobilize the community around addressing the unhealthy power dynamic at play, and I know others did what they could as well.
Coming from an abundance mindset, there are many people, skilled in various ways, who are drawn to Finca Morpho who would have a positive effect on this nomadic community. We needn’t feel like we need to compromise our values and wellbeing solely because of someone’s supposed skill set. Besides ability to work, are there other reasons that Ticon would like to have him be involved in the farm? Could the fact that Vincent’s child is on the farm be part of what is swaying in his favor?
Also, since it was mentioned in this thread, I wanted to clarify that although Josh is not comfortable having Vincent as a companion plant, he did state at our last core meeting that he is open to having a companion plant relationship with Dax.

TS

Ticon Storay Wed 6 Jun 2018 3:40PM

I wasn't trying to blame anyone, just pointing out that if we see a problem and do nothing to take care of it when several people have pointed out that something needed to happen we also have to take credit for the situation we created by failing to take our responsibilities.

I'm not asking anyone to work with him, talk to him, or even deal with him. I have not been able to get anyone to talk to me long enough to work out any 3D steps or guidelines to this or any other situation. What am I to do when. No one has time or energy?

At the same time I'm being asked indirectly to not let him come on the farm.

Does he deserve not to be able to hang out , visit his family, or visit the farm? Has his behavior really gotten to a point where no one can be friends with him and doesn't want anyone else to be friends with him?

Was he contrbuting to tons of issues outside of the kitchen? Are we really so worried that we think he will run around yelling at people's MSN causing dramam?

D

Dani Thu 7 Jun 2018 2:59AM

Im gonna put this here.. It's, on how to disagree well. It's rather long, but my advice for skimming it would be to study the diagram categorizing arguments, and skip to the end to read the numbered list of notes on the structure of it. Then read the whole thing, if it interests you.

I love you all, and its great to disagree.. lets do it as well as we can!