Loomio
Sat 10 Sep 2016 12:00PM

Pirates and/or Independents ?

JVO Jan Van Opstal Public Seen by 370

What about local crews who use Pirate resources, with the intention not to produce a Piratelist for next elections but to participate on a independent list ?

V

Vincent Sat 10 Sep 2016 1:04PM

It will happen in Gent and Louvain-la-Neuve, so we'd better not consider this point lightly, indeed.

VD

Valerie D. Sat 10 Sep 2016 8:01PM

In Crew BW, we thought that we actually want to present this at the next GA, to make it clear to all pirates that there are different ways of going to elections.

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Sat 10 Sep 2016 8:26PM

Do you mean the upcoming GA in Mechelen?
If yes... this topic is not on the agenda ...
Why not start now-here on Loomio?

TF

Poll Created Sun 11 Sep 2016 7:43AM

Bring it to the drafting zone... Closed Sun 11 Sep 2016 12:45PM

... to have a speach about it during the next GA in Meechelen on the 22 of October @ Leuvensesteenweg 74, 3191 Boortmeerbeek?

Results

Results Option % of points Voters
Agree 100.0% 4 SVL V VD JVO
Abstain 0.0% 0  
Disagree 0.0% 0  
Block 0.0% 0  
Undecided 0% 47 PI RC KDV SR RVE SD Z CC TVO PD DR PB H AI AB TF BG J JJ WF

4 of 51 people have voted (7%)

JVO

Jan Van Opstal
Agree
Sun 11 Sep 2016 7:50AM

For shure

J

Josse Sun 11 Sep 2016 1:03PM

Does not make sense to me, but I am sure you will explain.

TF

Thierry Fenasse Sun 11 Sep 2016 1:09PM

For me it's related to this on our wiki talking about that on Facebook.

The notes @damiensrobert took where transfered to this pad but piratepad.be is down since this morning.

JV

Jov Ver Sun 11 Sep 2016 3:25PM

Euhm. How did this move from brainstorming to drafting in a single day with only 4 pirates, including the original poster supporting it?

(not saying I'm against having the topic - although I would wait with discussing it on a GA this soon - just wondering how this one levelled up this fast)

edit: or am I missing something - still learning Loomio...

TF

Thierry Fenasse Sun 11 Sep 2016 3:37PM

Jan did this because at least 3 pirates seems to endorse the idea and may work on it.

It is explained urder the GROUP DESCRIPTION of Pirates BE - Permanent Assembly :

1) Post in the Brainstorming Zone
When you have 3 people ready to spend time on the formalization of your idea, it can be moved to the drafting zone.

2) Work in the Drafting Zone
Develop, clarify, translate here. When 3 people think that the idea is consistent and clear enough to be debated, then the idea moves to the debating zone

3) Defend your idea in the Debating Zone
The ideas debated here will be presented to the General Assembly, sorted by popularity.

PS

Pat Seynaeve Mon 12 Sep 2016 6:38AM

So it's in drafting zone now?
We can discuss "What about?" :rabbit:

What you mean pirate resources?
When a pirate can participate on a list of independents of activists who have the same goal: making a better world for common people with special attention on solidarity with people in poverty and slavery and to prevent exploitation and profiteering from corporations and governments, then I don't see a problem.

CC

Christophe Cop Mon 12 Sep 2016 2:19PM

Actually, my proposal for Crew Antwerp is the inverse.

I hope we can come with a complete list to the elections.
If we don't have enough pirates, I propose we invite independents to our list (with a minimum of requirements, like approving the UN-human rights).

As such, minor factions and individuals can help us, while we show that we want democracy, not parties in power.

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Mon 12 Sep 2016 7:44PM

Why should we not find enough Pirates (at least in the major cities) ?

We have very strong program item such as:

Liquid democracy
Basic Income
and much more

Let's explain, let's party ... there are about 14.000 jobs to win....

and more we can create ourselves ... :sweat_smile:

CC

Christophe Cop Tue 13 Sep 2016 1:09PM

It's all a matter of HR: How many pirates do we have (now), and how many pirates will we have by the time when the lists are to be composed.
The people we have now, have all limited time and resources (it's all voluntary work!), and reaching out to new members is time consuming.
While I do hope we'll gather enough members, I am not putting my money on it. But I hope I am wrong

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Tue 13 Sep 2016 9:54PM

HR ?

CC

Christophe Cop Wed 14 Sep 2016 8:21AM

Human Resources. : The pirates, and how much time and effort each one wants to contribute. If there are pirates that can engage them, there is more succes.

VD

Valerie D. Mon 12 Sep 2016 7:53PM

The point is not about "not having enough pirates": it's about going with a "common list" with other people who are not in the pirate party.

What about this GA? We just want to inform in the largest way possible that some pirates have been working on something like that and want it to be clear to other pirates (it's been mentioned on some previous labs before, but that does not mean the news has spread out... obviously not). And there are many other possible strategies for the elections (just imagine! :star: .)
We do not want to talk already now about ressources or such thing, just, and only, to explain that this has been ongoing for a while, and why.

that's a first draft ;-)

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Mon 12 Sep 2016 8:10PM

If you go with a common list you can not have a pirate list at same time.....
It seems to be the one or the other ....

VD

Valerie D. Mon 12 Sep 2016 8:13PM

Inderdaad, tout à fait.

SVL

sarah van liefferinge Tue 13 Sep 2016 1:28AM

before the local elections of 2012, we had someone in Gent who came to us and asked if he could be on the Pirateparty list as an independent. our answer was: "hell no! if you want to be on our list, you have to be 100% Pirate!"

but I guess by now, 4 years later, we would react differently. even more, the idea is rising to actively invite independents on 'our' list, to show that we take our own criticism on party politics seriously. if Pirates are the ones facilitating the list, it could be a 'Pirate+' list, but if not enough people/independents agree on that, another name is possible. 'Pirate+' could give both signals: yes, we are Pirates and we are going to the elections, and yes, our list is open for independents and for citizens who care: convergence des luttes!

it is important to have a few guidelines and some common ground, I believe, and I would look for/try to gather independents who are representing local citizens' and transition initiatives. but if we open up 'our' list, the common ground will have to be discussed on the way, with the people willing to participate. so we don't demand people to become a member of the Pirate Party and fully endorse all our ideas (copyright reform, basic income, etc., which are hard to achieve on a local level), but we show ourselves willing to debate and find common ground with people who are outside of the party.

SD

Sandrine Debatty Tue 13 Sep 2016 5:57AM

J'avais posé une question similaire il y a un mois ou deux. Dans les petits villages, il y a souvent une liste "de coalition communale". Est-ce de cela qu'on parle ici? Parce que la question s'est posée de savoir si on avait pas intérêt à essayer de placer des pirates dans ce genre de liste. La réponse qu'on m'a donnée à l'époque est que la liste doit respecter les valeurs des pirates, ce qui est impossible à savoir à l'avance. Mais si c'est une liste de coalition de personne, c'est qu'ils travaillent, en principe, au consensus, donc on devrait pouvoir s'y retrouver. Voilà, question qui m'intéresse car j'ai lancé une crew dans une région avec uniquement des petites communes et donc souvent des listes de coalition. La probabilité de voir un élu pirtates par une de ces listes est plus importantes que de voir un pirate élu par une liste pirate, en tout cas à moyen terme. De plus, le but des pirates étant que des idées soient mises en place et pas des pirates, cela me semble tout à fait compatible. Des avis?

I had asked a similar question one month or two ago. In the small villages, there is often a list " of municipal coalition ". Is it about it that we speak here? Because the question settled to know if we had not interest to be tried to place pirates in this kind of list. The answer that we gave me to the time is that the list has to respect the values of the pirates, what is impossible to know in advance. But if it is a list of coalition of anybody, it is that they work, as a rule(in principle), on the consensus, thus we should be able to if to find. Here we are, question which interests me because I threw a crew in a region with only small municipalities and thus often lists of coalition.
The probability to see an elected representative pirtates by one of these lists is more important than to see a pirate elected by a list pirate, in any case in the medium term. Furthermore, the purpose of the pirates being that ideas are organized and no pirates, it seems to me completely compatible. Opinions?

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Tue 13 Sep 2016 8:27AM

So there is a big difference of allowing independents on the Pirate list or Pirates who subscribe on a Independent's list. For sure it is more important to see Pirates elected.

But what about the positioning on the lists .... In the first case the pirates can make a list order, in the second case not. The same when it comes to conflicts of interest, rare cases of replacement of a elected candidate ... about public funding... ???

Personally I would prefer if every crew start first to try make a Pirate list. (let's do this together in a national campaign) and if there are not enough candidates, then make a decision to participate on a independent list. Having independents on the Pirate list seems great to me, as long the candidate is not opposed to liquid democracy.

Maybe mixed democracy is better description for liquid democracy?

H

HgO Tue 13 Sep 2016 12:55PM

@valeried is talking about a third option: pirates and independants builds a list altogether. In this case, the ordering of the list would be decided within the group (random/consensus/vote/...)

JVO

Jan Van Opstal Tue 13 Sep 2016 9:48PM

For me it looks like the second option and not as a third option... I do not see any difference.... Am I missing something ?

VD

Valerie D. Wed 14 Sep 2016 8:10PM

yes, there is a difference, and that's why we would like to get some (short) time at the GA to explain :wink:

DR

Damiens ROBERT Tue 13 Sep 2016 11:51PM

Well I'm not sure the term independent translates very well the idea we had for Louvain-la-Neuve by example ... The idea is to make a list of citizens of the town to have as much democracy as possible. We more and more think that saying : "Be empowered ! Delegate your power to us." is not coherent. That is why we are thinking about involving as much as possible the citizens themselves.

PS

Pat Seynaeve Thu 15 Sep 2016 5:09PM

I'll speak for me personally, but I don't believe anymore in a particracy. But thats the system now and the only way to change it, is getting into..
But let's be realistic: When you look how other small party like the PVDA is organised, and still not elected, then you know that it is not so simple. The PVDA in Gent has in each neighbourhood a crew of at least 10 people who are active member. The pirates in Ghent have 1 crew of 10 for the whole region of Ghent.
Keep on dreaming'.
We only can survive when we collaborate with others.
l'Union fait la force.

VD

Poll Created Fri 16 Sep 2016 8:55PM

I agree to add the item below to GA Oct 2016 agenda Closed Wed 21 Sep 2016 8:01PM

Outcome
by Valerie D. Tue 25 Apr 2017 5:44AM

This point is proposed as an item for the GA of Oct 22nd. We will discuss the contents better on the coming lab of Sept. 24th in Mechelen.

"Alternative lists for upcoming local election: What some (sub)crews are working on".

  • big max 45 minutes (including questions),
  • divided in short presentations by each crew that has its "alternative in progress" to present. If your crew is one of those, mention it here when voting so that we can contact you.

Results

Results Option % of points Voters
Agree 100.0% 8 V H TF PS L JD JV WM
Abstain 0.0% 0  
Disagree 0.0% 0  
Block 0.0% 0  
Undecided 0% 42 PI RC KDV SR RVE SD Z CC TVO PD DR VD PB JVO AI AB BG J JJ WF

8 of 50 people have voted (16%)

VD

Valerie D. Fri 16 Sep 2016 9:00PM

Let's keep working here: I wrote a first draft in the form of a proposal. I hope that triggers feedback. @damiensrobert and @sarah40 , thanks for your feedback in particular :baby_bottle:

VG

Veerle Gevaert Tue 20 Sep 2016 7:53PM

Désolé Valérie, j'ai essayé de réagir parce que je suis 'accord mais je n'arrivais pas à le faire, je ne comprends pas bien

Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 19:02:35 +0000

V

Vincent Tue 20 Sep 2016 9:26PM

En haut à droite tu peux faire un choix parmi 4 boutons :)
boutons

TF

Thierry Fenasse Wed 21 Sep 2016 5:58AM

Et Loomio peut fonctionner dans différentes langues, dont le néerlandais. :thumbsup:

En suivant ces étapes, à commencer par le menu qui ressemble à trois petits traits noirs l'un au dessus des autre.

DR

Damiens ROBERT Thu 22 Sep 2016 2:22PM

Do the 45 minutes of presentation include the presentation I proposed to make when I contacted info@pirtateparty.be ?

TF

Thierry Fenasse Fri 25 Nov 2016 8:48PM

FR: Est-ce qu'un modérateur de ce groupe, pourrait déplacer ce fil de discussion vers le groupe parent Permanent Assembly dans le but de supprimer ce sous-groupe Drafting Zone qui rend les choses plus compliquées que nécessaire. Merci

EN: Can a moderator of this group move this thread to the parent Permanent Assembly group in order to delete this subgroup Drafting Zone which makes things more complicated than necessary. Thank you

NL: Sorry, I do not speak Neederlands :crying_cat_face: