Telegram Cleanup Proposal

I support this proposal.

In general, I would fully support this proposal with one area of pushback.

Having events organised in new/separate Telegram channels is something I struggle with for a few reasons:

• It means there is no way of knowing how an event is shaping up until someone has already committed to attending. This can make it harder to get excited about something and can create a sense of exclusion, hampering continuity regarding a broader sense of community.

• It can create confusion about what should be posted where (e.g multiple lost & found topics) and when to 'close' said new spaces.

• It makes it harder to offer support (through equipment and/or time) to events that one is not attending. I might want to support Scottish Burn events, even if I'm not attending but will miss out on offering things if I don't see the calls for input etc.

My preference would be to create a system that allows organising for as many events as possible to happen in a single space rather than fragmenting.

(sorry I don't have the capacity right now to wrangle a proposal out of my brain for this 😔)

Thanks for your thoughts, Jake! But i think some are based on a misunderstanding?

To your points 1 and 3, about separate groups for organising events:

1. Zoë is not proposing separate planning groups as a new thing, she's documenting what has been practice for a year now. Celtic Burn, Birthpocalypse, and Wee Fest all used separate groups to reduce noise for others, and allow the fully-engaged to plan in a smaller group.

2. The bar to joining a separate planning group is very low: click a link. You aren't required to commit or buy a ticket. All of the above events had "maybe" attendees in them.

3. All three groups still announce the key points of an event here in Scottish Burners. Just not all the chatter. You can choose your level of engagement by joining, or not.

4. Too many messages on SB Telegram contributes to fragmentation, as people leave it because of the noise. I think these proposals, plus existing practice of separate groups for events, is a fairly good compromise between providing broad information and opportunity to get involved.

On your second point, this proposal also provides clarity on where to post. Announcements on SBT, details in event groups, and clearly-named topics on SBT for everything else.

@Tyler Wagner I would agree with Tyler’s point and support separate groups once the timing and main necessary details are determined for any event

I think the Cleanup offer is fantastic! Constructive clarity - as usual :) Thanks much, Zoë, for such a beautiful job <3

1. Reading previous comments from Jake and Tyler:

a. I do agree that having separate groups for events does create the feeling of exclusion. And I think it is worth dealing with, to reduce the load on the main group in some cases. Personally, for me, having chats in the main channel is pleasant because I see the activity, and my motivation to come raises.

b. I think it is up to the organiser to choose the main group or the separate one. If Birthpocalypse is done in a separate group, so be it. If Burns Burn is done in the main group, so be it. I vote for our group to be created as it wants. I think cleaning the group means cleaning the past, rather than to design the future. Of course, if we have doubling topics - burn them, but if someone wants to use the group for making an event - I support it.

2.I love everything that is said, with modification:

a. I offer to keep the threads of the past events closed, but in the group where they are.

b. I offer to delete the rest, closed once topics after a month, forever.

Why? Please, let's not have an archive of the archives. What we don't need, we don't need - let go, goodbye. The previous events - I don't see them as a disturbance - they are just past events, a general history for new members, and sentiment for old members, and it's handy to have in the main group for quick info, requesting the archive is a bit too much of an action for a quick info check.

These are my offered edits.

@Darya personally I can understand the rationale for having event organizer voice over whether to organize their event in the overall group or create a new one, but unless it is a simple event like a concert or dinner folks are going to, I would appreciate if we could establish a norm of more complicated events being organized off the group. This way people can opt in to seeing the group activity or not (as Tyler said above you can join an open group even if you’re a maybe or just to lurk). Otherwise those not him have no choice as to whether they see the many likely messages and it can mean posts in other sub topics get less attention because they move lower down the topics list on the overall channel

@Darya Thanks for your thoughts - will respond just to the idea of keeping old event topics in the group for sentimental value, while wholly deleting others, and make a general comment about separate groups for organisation later, as several people have commented about that now.

The main issue with any group clearing happening at all, in the past, was people wanting to keep groups for either sentimental value, or for reference. However, everyone has a different idea of what should be kept and what should be deleted, as your comment has helpfully demonstrated. I do not want myself or any other admins to be put in a position where we have to try to make judgement calls or figure out what is "sentimental", what is "useful", and what should be deleted forever. Those judgements are subjective, and we'd end up arguing about it ad infinitum. So I'm just basing it on something quantifiable -- how long a topic has been inactive and unused -- and simply letting people vote with their engagement.

Keeping a zip file of an old topic is no trouble at all, for me nor people wanting to look back at information, and I'm happy to do it. As I said in a separate comment, if it's a matter of sentimental value, the old groups can very easily be looked at with just a few extra clicks, and even display on a web browser in a similar way. People who don't want to engage with the archives can simply ignore that one topic, rather than 36 topics. Closed and defunct topics just sitting there in the group do make everything more cluttered, confusing, and difficult to navigate, which is why I'll be putting them all in one easy folder.

To me, this seems like a well thought-out proposal that has listened to and considers different points of view.

I'd look forward to this being implemented with just as much slow consideration.

Thanks to Zoe, the admins and everyone else who's input has led to this 🙏. This time and effort "work" behind the scenes for the whole community is appreciated.

Just to clarify what it looks like to access an archived topic, so that people can clearly visualise: simply, open the "Archives" topic, scroll to the zip file you want, and click twice to open it. If you choose to open it on a web browser, it will display looking very similar to the OG topic, with chat bubbles and all. It takes approximately 20 more seconds to open than if the topic were only closed and still sitting there, visibly cluttering up the group.

@Zoe Ironstone thanks for this, that seems more unobtrusive than I would have imagined