Loomio
Tue 19 Sep 2017 10:34AM

Participatory Tools for Democracy: Meet the working group

OK

Poll Created Wed 27 Sep 2017 2:23PM

Participatory Tools for Democracy - Gathering Topics Closed Wed 18 Oct 2017 2:03PM

Since the topic for the work-group is wide I thought to make an open poll to collect and priorities issues. Check the options you find most relevant to you. Please also add options that are not on the list yet but you find important.

Results

Results Option % of points Voters
decision making processes and voting systems 26.8% 15 TK ZB STV MO AME M LA CF ML M I OK JS A ASA
participatory toolkit for ECA 21.4% 12 ZB AJ AME M LA CF ML M I OK A ASA
alternative currencies and time banks 14.3% 8 ZB MJ AME VG LA ML SH JS
participatory urban planning 10.7% 6 MJ MO LA I A ASA
participatory budgeting 10.7% 6 ZB MJ LA M I JS
Policy design for the commons 8.9% 5 VG CF ML I ASA
FLOSS social media and campaigning apps (added during poll)) 3.6% 2 TK MJ
Caring methods as a commons 3.6% 2 VG CF
Undecided 0% 199 SJ EP IS VN KF ST JD AT MM SH AP JR DK JAR AM BT JA DA JL PG

19 of 218 people have voted (8%)

ZB

Z. Blace Wed 27 Sep 2017 4:37PM

decision making processes and voting systems
alternative currencies and time banks
participatory budgeting
participatory toolkit for ECA

FLOSS social media and campaigning apps

M

Mattias Thu 28 Sep 2017 5:04PM

FLOSS social media and campaigning apps (added during poll))
decision making processes and voting systems

There are interesting tools like https://www.voteit.se/in-english/

M

Mattias Thu 28 Sep 2017 5:04PM

FLOSS social media and campaigning apps (added during poll))
decision making processes and voting systems
participatory toolkit for ECA

There are interesting tools like https://www.voteit.se/in-english/

M

Mattias Thu 28 Sep 2017 5:04PM

decision making processes and voting systems
participatory toolkit for ECA

There are interesting tools like https://www.voteit.se/in-english/

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Wed 27 Sep 2017 2:26PM

Since this thread has been a bit silent I started the poll just to collect and prioritise issues. I am not sure if I join Madrid myself, but perhaps this can anyway help as a first step.

OK

Poll Created Wed 27 Sep 2017 2:23PM

Participatory Tools for Democracy - Gathering Topics Closed Wed 18 Oct 2017 2:03PM

Since the topic for the work-group is wide I thought to make an open poll to collect and priorities issues. Check the options you find most relevant to you. Please also add options that are not on the list yet but you find important.

Results

Results Option % of points Voters
decision making processes and voting systems 26.8% 15 TK ZB STV MO AME M LA CF ML M I OK JS A ASA
participatory toolkit for ECA 21.4% 12 ZB AJ AME M LA CF ML M I OK A ASA
alternative currencies and time banks 14.3% 8 ZB MJ AME VG LA ML SH JS
participatory urban planning 10.7% 6 MJ MO LA I A ASA
participatory budgeting 10.7% 6 ZB MJ LA M I JS
Policy design for the commons 8.9% 5 VG CF ML I ASA
FLOSS social media and campaigning apps (added during poll)) 3.6% 2 TK MJ
Caring methods as a commons 3.6% 2 VG CF
Undecided 0% 199 SJ EP IS VN KF ST JD AT MM SH AP JR DK JAR AM BT JA DA JL PG

19 of 218 people have voted (8%)

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Oliver Kalleinen Mon 2 Oct 2017 12:27PM

Please note that you can also add new topics and change your priorities when new topics were added.

M

Margarita Tue 3 Oct 2017 8:53AM

Thank you Oliver for your proposal!

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Oliver Kalleinen Tue 3 Oct 2017 3:44PM

Is anyone of the "Participatory Tools for Democracy" working group who will go to Madrid here in Loomio?

SH

Steve Huckle Wed 4 Oct 2017 8:05AM

I would love to go - unfortunately, it clashes with my children's half-term holidays. Do you know if it's possible to participate remotely, somehow?

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Oliver Kalleinen Wed 4 Oct 2017 9:02AM

I was wondering if anyone is actually taking part to the Participatory Tools work-group in Madrid, so far I only saw registrations for the immigration and the food, health leisure work groups. In any case it would be ironic if precisely this work-group on Participatory Tools would not consider any form of remote participation. But from what I have gathered so far, it is up to us to make it happen...

SH

Steve Huckle Wed 4 Oct 2017 2:14PM

I sent a message to contact@europeancommonsassembly.eu asking about remote participation at Madrid. Unfortunately, I've had no response. How to organise?

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Oliver Kalleinen Wed 4 Oct 2017 3:19PM

I guess the first step is to identify the people that will go to Madrid and are dedicated to Participatory Tools work-group. I think it is difficult to strive for a constant remote participation, in my experience this is difficult. But the work-group in Madrid could schedule for each day a dedicated skype session in which remote participants can comment, ask, suggest etc. I also would think that some part of the discussion could take place here in Loomio. For example if the work-group that is in Madrid posts 1 or 2 questions which they discussed during the day on Loomio so that remote participants could add their point of view on those questions during the night.

SH

Steve Huckle Thu 5 Oct 2017 7:59AM

I like those suggestions, very much - particularly posting the discussions (that's also a nice way to document what goes on). How do we make that happen?

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Oliver Kalleinen Thu 5 Oct 2017 8:20AM

I read on some of the crypt or hackpads that there was the idea to have "point" people (I guess it means coordinators) for each work group, in our case I recall vaguely Thomas or Tomas was mentioned. Best would be to get in touch with him/her while continue the discussion here in loomio. From the program it seems that Thursday 26.10. is the actual working day of the work groups, so it would make sense to schedule a conference call during that day.

SH

Steve Huckle Thu 5 Oct 2017 1:52PM

Er, Tomas who? How do I get in contact with them? Forgive me if I'm missing something....

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Oliver Kalleinen Thu 5 Oct 2017 3:54PM

In the jungle of pads I found this: https://mypads.framapad.org/mypads/?/mypads/group/eca-madrid-ikgde722/pad/view/eca-madrid-documentation-proposal-9cr9e7fx There is mentioned the term "Point people", I had heard the term before on another pad which I cannot locate anymore. For our particular work-group there is following entry:

Democratic tools for democracy (part of Participation of citizens to urban policies + Technology for citizen)
ECA ¿?
ABROAD tbc Stéphanie Bost, Thomas de Groot***
SPAIN: ParticipaLab (Medialab - Madrid) - CONFIRMED

I assume it is just a typo in the heading, it should be Particpatory Tools for Democracy...So it would be perhaps a good idea to contact Thomas and Stephanie for further details. Just guessing though... The perks of decentralization & self-organisation.;)

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Oliver Kalleinen Sun 8 Oct 2017 5:28PM

This loomio forum is quite unresponsive considering that it is the main internal communication platform of ECA. Steve and me would like to figure out how we could remote-contribute to this working group, but we cannot even find out who is actually in the work-group and who is in Madrid. The "point" person was online here 1 month ago. I guess an issue this particular work-group should address. If communication happens on 10 different platforms it will be difficult to live up to the transparency claim of ECA.

M

Margarita Tue 10 Oct 2017 6:47AM

Hi communers! I will stay in Madrid, it easy to me because I live here.
I involve in research activity and I also introduced a participatory tool in Spain in 2014. Now is practically in disuse. You can see, www.votando.es.
See you in Madrid if is possible to you!!

ZB

Z. Blace Tue 10 Oct 2017 6:54AM

I am interested to join your discussion also as I feel it is central to advance of all online work of all groups +;like geeking out ;-)

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Oliver Kalleinen Tue 10 Oct 2017 8:41AM

Hi Margarita, will you attend the work-group sessions of Participatory Tools for Democracy in Madrid? If yes, would you be willing to help organizing some form of remote participation? Steve and me were interested to contribute to the work group but cannot come to Madrid. This would be great. I made some suggestion above, like a daily skype in session, or then some form of online discussion here in loomio, like that the people on the ground in Madrid formulate the most urgent questions discussed during the day and post them in loomio, and then the online crowd (Steve, Zeljko and me probably...) can throw in their perspective overnight....

SH

Steve Huckle Tue 10 Oct 2017 9:04AM

I'm not confident this is going to happen - as you say, this forum seems particularly unresponsive :( However, meanwhile, I will try and track down Stéphanie Bost and Thomas de Groot. Thanks for persevering Oliver...

M

Margarita Sat 14 Oct 2017 12:10PM

Hi Oliver,
I am so sorry for not be efficency and fast with the response, but first of all I have just seen now.
I am very grateful for the offer, but to be honest I want try but I advance that I do not have a domain of English lenguage at all, and I will need a help, (this is the reason because sometimes I am a little shy), but If the group give me a hand, all will be possible!

Using this message, I invite all to see my little contribution for democratic tools, that I launched here in Spain years ago. Now is in desuse because I did not find out aliances and economic aid (https://votando.es/index.php/homepage/que_es_votando; www.votando.es).
I am so excited for this meeting and I am going to do all I can for make the best of me.
Thanks for all in advance,

Margarita

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Oliver Kalleinen Sun 15 Oct 2017 4:00AM

Hi Margarita, thanks for your message. Since you will be in Madrid in the work group for Participatory Tools for Democracy I would hope that you or somebody else from the workgroup will keep us updated here on Loomio and perhaps consult the crowd on some of the questions you discuss. I would have like to come to Madrid, but it wasnt possible, so this would give me some way to feel involved. Thanks a lot! Oliver

NL

Nicole Leonard Tue 10 Oct 2017 3:57PM

This is ideally @thomasdegroot 's group. Stéphanie de Bost is not coming.

Sorry all that our group organization before the event is not as tight as we'd like - almost everyone is working on a voluntary basis so things do get dropped. However, I can report that things are shaping up very nicely for when you'r ein Madrid, and we will have great facilitators. So I'm very excited for this moment and it's going to be a great time :)

SH

Steve Huckle Wed 11 Oct 2017 8:44AM

Hi Nicole - if you read the thread, you'll see that some of us are unable to attend Madrid. However, we would like to participate, so we're wondering if there will be mechanisms in place for doing so remotely.

I saw Thomas's twitter feed, but I have long since removed my twitter account (too much noise, not enough substance), so I'm unable to message him there :( Could someone else oblige and point him towards this discussion regarding remote participation at Madrid?

AMD

Ana Méndez de Andés Wed 11 Oct 2017 9:17AM

Hi, Steve. This is Ana, I am working with Medialab-Prado in the coordination of the workshops. As you might know, the Medialab is a public cultural institution working on commons and on the development of citizen laboratories since long time (Margarita can probably explain it better than me ;). As for myself, I have been doing independent reaserach and activism on urban commons since may years, and I have been involved in the organization of many international workshops and meetings in Madrid. With the Medialab, I am collaborating in a project called Common Codes.

According to this different experiences, for the ECA in Madrid we are developing a methodology that, alas, relies very much on the actual participation of people in the workshop, and that we hope would be dynamic - not based only presentations - and would allow cross-pollinization - mixing theme discussion with group discussions. I am afraid that, in this frame, it is not possible - technological or methodologically - to think of remote participation.

However, there are two methods to follow this meeting when you are not in Madrid. First, there will be a public streaming of the more general sessions sessions on Wednesday and Thursday. second, we are working very hard to get a good documentation of the workshops, so that the information gathered, the discussions and the proposals would publicly available for everybody to work on/with them. If you have any suggestions regarding the documentation side of the event, please let us (Nicole and me) know, and we wil try to incorporate them.

SH

Steve Huckle Wed 11 Oct 2017 9:57AM

Hi Ana - thanks for clarifying - that's fair enough - then it's such a shame I cannot attend.

Regarding documenting the workshops - make the documentation plaintext (or markdown) and publish to GitHub?

AMD

Ana Méndez de Andés Wed 11 Oct 2017 10:00AM

Hi, Stev. Thanks for the suggestion! I have never used GitHub for texts, but will consider it. Also, I think we might need both plain text and more edited text, with images and graphics.

SH

Steve Huckle Wed 11 Oct 2017 10:06AM

Then rather than plaintext, use Markdown. You get all the benefits of plaintext (commenting, forking, branching and merging), but you can include graphics and links et al. Plus, GitHub may fit well with the ethos of a digital commons ;) I accept, though, that if you've not used it before, it may involve quite a steep learning curve...

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Wed 11 Oct 2017 10:54AM

Hi Ana, I think when we talk about remote participation it doesn't mean that there would be constant streaming or skyping etc. But as I suggested above, the wider community could act in a consulting role, like for example if at the end of the day the work-group writes a short summary of their discussions and their 3 main questions and post it here in loomio so that people can comment on´it overnight. With the comments then feeding back into the discussion. So that there is some feeling of being included. If you get just a documentation in the end the effect is very different. My sense is that it would be problematic if especially the Participatory Tools for Democracy work group doesn't allow for any form of remote participation.

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Wed 11 Oct 2017 7:51AM

Hi Ana Sofia and Vincenzo, it would be great if you could briefly elaborate on the options that you added. "Policy Design for the commons" - does this mean you would like to discuss how to design a participatory process that leads to actual policy proposals?

"Caring methods as a commons" - Would this topic work perhaps better in the Health/Food work-group? Or do you refer rather on how to take care of participatory processes, how to ensure that participants care for each other and for the outcome? Not sure... Thanks for clarification.

ZB

Z. Blace Wed 11 Oct 2017 11:15AM

Let's do something radical and practice what we preach by starting a project for this using GitHub/GitLab or even better - some cooperative repository service like that of https://framasoft.org/ ?

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Oliver Kalleinen Wed 11 Oct 2017 12:06PM

Hei Zeljko and Sharon, I love to practice what we preach! I found this an issue with many smaller organisations that have wonderful charters but have troubles to put them into practice. Can you elaborate how you imagine the use of GitHub or similar repositories for our purpose? How about the entrance barrier? Would Github etc. exclude a lot of people from participation because they have not enough knowledge? If your idea is not directly related to ECA Madrid work-group perhaps we can move that discussion to this new thread: https://www.loomio.org/d/9c1bkEBG/participatory-toolkit-for-eca

S

Sharon Wed 11 Oct 2017 11:28AM

Hello everyone, I totally agree with previous comments about needing to practice participation. It would be great to have some way to facilitate remote participation.

ZB

Z. Blace Wed 11 Oct 2017 12:05PM

Let's do something radical and practice what we preach by starting a project for this using GitHub/GitLab or even better - some cooperative repository service like that of https://framasoft.org/ ?

ZB

Z. Blace Wed 11 Oct 2017 12:18PM

I am not sure if and how exactly...

My estimate is it is worth starting things asap (for remote participation in Madrid for example some basic mapping of tech options and methods) and itirate later based on experience.

Not all need to use all features of Git but all could learn to edit Wiki, Pads and Loomio towards or in Madrid.

Best, Zeljko

SH

Steve Huckle Wed 11 Oct 2017 1:05PM

Good point, Zeljko - GitHub comes with a Wiki, too. Mind you, the Framasoft toolset looks interesting...

SH

Silke Helfrich Wed 11 Oct 2017 1:29PM

I'd like to suggest discourse once more for the long run. Can be
designed for/adapted to specific ECA purposes, is linked with
e-mail, is designed for debates and nobody needs a steep learning
curve to get into it.

We use it at transformap for a few years now.

Am 11.10.2017 um 15:05 schrieb Steve
Huckle (Loomio):

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Oliver Kalleinen Wed 11 Oct 2017 4:35PM

Hi Silke, can you perhaps re-post this sugestion in this new dedicated thread: https://www.loomio.org/d/9c1bkEBG/participatory-toolkit-for-eca I think this is a good place for long run discussion on toolkit. Thanks.

ZB

Z. Blace Wed 11 Oct 2017 5:59PM

Can you elaborate a bit on how would 'discourse' (software/service) be used?
I agree it is good software (bit heavy on dependencies, but good interface), but note that aside from discussing there is a need for collaborative writing and commenting for which Wiki-like software is much better
Note how it is described on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse_(software)

M

Margarita Sun 15 Oct 2017 8:14AM

:relieved: we will keep update. I wish you a good day!

TDG

Thomas de Groot Sun 15 Oct 2017 9:39AM

Hi everyone, my name is Thomas de Groot. Sorry for not being in touch, I've been too busy with other aspects of the organizing committee of the ECA in Madrid.

I am looking forward to our workshop! Here's what the job of the coordinator (point person) is:

"As a coordinator for a thematic working group, you will serve as the link between your group and the main ECA organizing and documentation teams. This is mainly to cut down on communications and ensure we don’t leave any work produced in Madrid behind. It should not require a large amount of time but following the process beginning in September and some extra attention during the workshops in Madrid. The responsibilities include:
 
-       Before Madrid: Introducing the group to each other and facilitating a discussion
-       In Madrid: Ensuring at the end of each time slot/ block for the workshops that the outputs are delivered to the coordination team and making sure people are comfortable linguistically and otherwise
-       After the Assembly: helping to share results
"

So that's me:)

Because I think Loomio is not ideal for this, I propose a 'pad' to collaborate on this. So, that would be my first question to you all: to live up to the expectations, do you think we should work on a shared document (a 'pad')? Or shall we just remain on Loomio? Or, of course, we combine the two ;)

In case you prefer to stay here, I'll join you. If you prefer the pad, here's the link: https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/1/edit/KrfxVHnTCx3b+Xjq9ycYIQ/wH88XGaoY3He7o8ISxS1psOn/

I'll talk to you soon, looking forward to meeting you all,

Thomas

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Mon 16 Oct 2017 1:47PM

Hi Thomas, nice to hear from you. My suggestion would be to keep the general discussion here in Loomio so that other groups can follow more easily, but then use the pad for gathering data, writing and editing texts for proposals, recommendations etc.

Do you have any thoughts on remote participation as it was mentioned here in the thread?

SH

Silke Helfrich Sun 15 Oct 2017 3:46PM

sorry, Oliver, I am mostly writing offline, i.e. I respond via
e-mail. Feel free to shift this wherever you see fit.

Silke

Am 11.10.2017 um 18:35 schrieb Oliver
Kalleinen (Loomio):

SH

Steve Huckle Tue 17 Oct 2017 8:12AM

Cryptpad is interesting - I'm all for it! In fact, its GitHub page makes for interesting reading (https://github.com/xwiki-labs/cryptpad), particularly the section on Security :)

TDG

Thomas de Groot Tue 17 Oct 2017 9:14AM

Hi Oliver, good to hear, that was my idea too. And yes Steve, I like Cryptpad because they care about secrity, which is good in these dark times :) And Oliver, could you specify what you mean by Remote Participation?

Ok, so, let's see. Here's what I posted on the pad, let's see if people can respond.

Introduction of participants:
Name/city: ... Job/passion: ... Main expectations of ECA: ... Main focus for joing the participatory tools workshop: ...
Please fill out above fields, so we can get to know eachother :)
Name: Thomas, City: Amsterdam, Expectation: I hope to meet commons activists from across Europe to unite our movement and get inspired, Main focus for workshop: I have been working on 'tools for democracy' in Amsterdam quite a lot, so I hope to be able to contribute to the discussion.
Name: Oliver, Helsinki. I am involved in a media arts organization in Helsinki, we are changing the organisation to run with a decentralized democratic model; for this purpose we look at all kind of tools and try to understand them better, the technical aspects - but even more importantly the social aspects.From the work-group I hope to get insights from similar processes in other organisations, the problems but also the success-stories. I cannot actually be present in Madrid, but hope that Madrid is only a start for the work-group.
-What shall we work on in the run-up to Madrid, and during the ECA?

A concrete policy proposal for cities?
A map of the best tools for democracy?
A 'how to guide' to combine off line democracy and online democracy in the urban politics?
Other?
All of the above?
According to the poll in Loomio "decision making processes and voting systems" and "participatory toolkit for ECA" were the topics most voted on. The poll is in no way representative and also some options were added during polling, but I believe it is nevertheless good to consider those two at least.  Even though it might be a bit self-centred, but I think we should look at ECA as a test case. What tools do we want to use and how, how do we get people commit on a longer term to participate in ECA, how to combine offline / online spaces, how to move from discussion to policy proposals etc.. So my suggestions is to work on all the above questions with ECA as our test case. Perhaps I feel the ECA is not yet ready to make policy proposals for cities or other bodies if the organisation in itself has difficulties with it's democratic, decentralized working model.  -- oliver

Please give us your ideas of the above question, and start writing here below.

DESCRIPTION OF WORKSHOP FROM ECA WEBSITE
Participatory Tools for Democracy
Commons and democracy are intimately linked. This workshop addresses civic participation and ways to foster citizens’ involvement in the production of their cities through engagement with public bodies and direct forms of political action.
Lately, technology and digital tools are integral to these initiatives to enhance democratic processes. This workshop will consider this dynamic and look at the co-production of public policies and projects through digital platforms.
Participants are interested in analyzing changes produced by these new collaborative processes. They have experience in the production of tools and resources such as online maps, collective storytelling, repositories of experiences, and initiatives designed to support political decentralization and co-production, with and without support from political institutions. This work also includes the development of charters, contracts and structures between different urban actors involved in urban commons.around civic causes in this domain, and participate in telecommunications technological projects"

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Wed 18 Oct 2017 6:44PM

The poll on gathering and weighting topics for our work-group has been closed, an astonishing 9% of members voted! The poll was made to sense what interest people have; looking at the result it seems that "Participatory Toolkit for ECA" and "decision making processes and voting systems" got most of the votes, although some options were added later. So, my personal conclusion of this poll is this: I think we should look at ECA as a test case. What tools do we want to use and how, how do we get people commit on a longer term to participate in ECA, how to combine offline / online spaces, how to move from discussion to policy proposals, what decision making processes we want to implement etc. So my suggestions is to work on all those questions with ECA as our very concrete test case, we can then from this base generalize and draw up ideas for other organisations or bodies. I feel the ECA is not yet ready to make policy proposals for cities or other bodies if the organisation in itself has difficulties with it's democratic, decentralized working model.

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Wed 18 Oct 2017 6:49PM

In response to @thomasdegroot1 : with "remote participation" I was talking about the possibilities for people who cannnot come to Madrid to take part in the work-group in one way or the other. Steve and me for example cannot be in Madrid but would like to contribute somehow. I dont think about a constant streaming of work-group sessions, but rather one or two moments during the work-shop session in which remote participants can join and offer their perspective.

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Thu 19 Oct 2017 4:21PM

Would be great if others interested in this work-group could fill the questionnaire on our work-pad to get things moving: https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/1/edit/KrfxVHnTCx3b+Xjq9ycYIQ/wH88XGaoY3He7o8ISxS1psOn/

SH

Steve Huckle Fri 20 Oct 2017 8:06AM

re: workpad questionnaire - done!

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Mon 23 Oct 2017 7:14AM

Would be great if the other members of the work-group would step out of the shadow, in the moment it is only 3 people here, Thomas, Steve and me, please come out and fill the cryptpad so that we can move the discussion forward. thanks!

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Tue 24 Oct 2017 10:57PM

Have fun in Madrid! Keep us posted on Loomio and Cryptpad. o

M

Margarita Thu 26 Oct 2017 7:17AM

Hi! Good Morning!
First of all, yesterday I could only be the first few hours because I had a working group in Medialab Prado that I cannot stop going because there are only 5 sessions.
Yesterday was the introduction of the Assembly and I think they moved to the center of Matadero to Transeuropa.
Today we are getting full. We'll talk later.

SH

Steve Huckle Thu 26 Oct 2017 11:37AM

I hope it all goes well - looking forward to seeing the occasional update...

M

Margarita Thu 26 Oct 2017 6:11PM

Hi! We will report tomorrow because we continue in a general meeting, and some collegues will help me to make a good summary together.

M

Margarita Fri 27 Oct 2017 10:24AM

We did something for general process

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Fri 27 Oct 2017 12:31PM

Thanks for the update, would be great to get some explanation of the participatory process scheme, it stays a bit cryptic :)

M

Margarita Fri 27 Oct 2017 10:25AM

Participatory tools group

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Mon 30 Oct 2017 8:59AM

Hi work-group! Would anyone of you be willing to share a 5 sentence summary (or longer...) of the sessions dedicated to Participatory Tools in Madrid? Would be great to get some sense of the topics discussed. Thanks!

M

Margarita Mon 30 Oct 2017 4:37PM

Workgroup Participatory Tools for Democracy:
ECA 25th - 28th. Madrid
25th
First day the ECA made a presentation of the working groups, and then moved to Matadero for the Transeurope opening.
26th

First, we were a very small group of about eight people. The facilitator provided by Medialab Prado drew us an axis on which to work: [Government / Institutions / Citizens] and [Normative / habits of consumes / Ideals].
Each one was putting different post-it depending on what we thought were positive issues (pink) or problems (green) with annotations of the comments in each case. There some questions began and the group and we passed all the morning discussing.
This morning there was a dialogue of what each understood about the state of the issue and how these factors affected the proper bottom-up operation.
This morning there was a dialogue of what each one understood about the state of the issue and how these factors affected the proper bottom-up operation.
After this, the group withdrew until the afternoon session, so we could raise other issues, and in fact, here the group split in two: some who would work on the theme of the city because it suggested that it was more interesting and another (to which I belonged) on the subject of ECA.
This session drew a diagram of how the ECA Democratic voting plan could be managed. It was understood that we did not have knowledge about the last edition (Brussels?) And that to work like this was complicated. An ECA center was designed with mini spheres of direct communication that would work as autonomous working groups that would carry out prototypes that later would go up to the central of ECA to centralize the decisions of each work group.
Subsequently, there was some joint activity of all ECA working groups.

M

Margarita Mon 30 Oct 2017 4:41PM

M

Margarita Mon 30 Oct 2017 4:43PM

27th
There was a bit of discontent because we had not achieved any result that we liked all and there were no outstanding criteria or processes. We were proposed from the facilitator of Medialab to make a "treasure map" in order to resolve what were the obstacles that the process of participation of the ECA had and after different dialogues materialized in a general picture of what we understood should be contemplated in all processes of democratic participation.
On the one hand, we find three main elements: Individual / Tool (physical and virtual) / Structure.

Individuals:
They have a series of clear challenges to participate: one is the language and the other the location (for which only a virtual tool is thought).

On the other hand individuals start from a series of issues that directly influence the process; in which their needs, their interests, their culture, their education and the amount of time they have in order to participate are widely influenced. Having considered, these factors makes promoting a process of globalization tend to have difficulty participation to the extent that these factors are not balanced to reach a common pathway.
It senses that to encourage participation requires a vision of development that encourages use tool.

Tools:
They can be physical or virtual in nature and must first be efficient so that the elements that influence the individual can be minimized; should result in empowerment of the individual to encourage their use; and finally, it must have the characteristic of returning information (feedback), in short, to be considered as an intermediate element that offers a development of the individual. We did not think in other process that not is free access and zero code platforms.

Structure:
It is from the organization where the use of tools materializes and where an assessment of its feasibility must be made.
Depending on the structure you have can be rigid or flexible, which will influence both the tool used and the image and response of the individual.
It is desired for a better understanding and approach to the individual who must have a transparency in the mode of continuous information, so the structure must perfectly define its objectives and achievements.

M

Margarita Mon 30 Oct 2017 4:44PM

Personal Perspective:
I understand that working in a group is complicated, but it is even more so if you have not defined the objectives you are pursuing, you should appreciate the importance of having a pre-designed work methodology, otherwise, redesign it and put it back together, causes the working group to be less effective in time and results (for example, only two people knew the existence of the decisions of Loomio, when we thought it was something known by all).
Moreover, I think that depending on the people in the work group, the results will be variable because each one has his / her background and culture regarding how participation should be appreciated, how the structure, benefits or failures of a tool should be or another, so I consider that these days have had little time to work in groups to achieve results, increasing the disaffection of people about the thing to be solved.
The number of members of the group determines its success during the time invested, and it is considered that the optimum is to work with small groups, avoiding the problems of boredom and fatigue, creating trust among members to open more effectively, especially in those who have a more timid character. On the other hand, this creates less wealth of experience and visions, so the best thing would be to put in common after each small workgroup to achieve richer goals.

It can never be understood that agreements have been reached if there is a disruptive element that contradicts any phase already achieved (for example, the meaning of democracy, positive or negative values of the existence of governmental institutions or the concept of representation) that can happen. At any time, it is appreciated that the group, which limits absenteeism and weakness, can assume the continuity of the groups as successes acceptable.
For all the above, to make this meeting a success in the next edition would be highly recommended.

ZB

Z. Blace Mon 30 Oct 2017 5:02PM

I can only say right now Thanks for Constructive Critique and using Loomio to Voice it. It is shame that so few people took opportunity to do it in-situ.

M

Margarita Tue 31 Oct 2017 8:50AM

Hi Zeljko, I don't think is a shame, is only a different interests. We should´nt appreciate this like a lack of the participatory people in this or in another meetings, only a different way to understand this issue and perhaps these people do not use, do not like digital tools, don´t have this knowledge, or don´t have time to do it.

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Mon 30 Oct 2017 7:17PM

Thanks Margarita for the summary of the work-group. It is highly appreciated. I will have to look the images in more detail, but I got some sense of the processes. Reading your report, do you believe this work-group will continue to exist? Or better come into existence? And, did you get a sense if people are willing to communicate in Loomio (or any other platform that is decided upon). For me it is a bit surprising that people make all the effort to travel to Madrid but than haven't even looked at Loomio, even though it is explicitly named as the "official" communication tool of ECA. I really wonder how ECA sees itself in a position to give policy proposals when it is rather dysfunctional in its onw communication structure. Was it @zblace that suggested that we "live what we preach..." I second that even more.

M

Margarita Tue 31 Oct 2017 9:02AM

I believe this work-group will continue to exist, because one splendid person (Ana Sofía) is going to make a email list.
Even though, we don´t speak for use any tool for communicate, because many people understand that physical communication will be more efficient and isn´t into digital tools. When happening to "noise" (many people talking) the people do not interactive. I think is a decission, and in my humild point of view, we have to respect this manner of understand this group. Some times we will have a phisical meeting and in other a digital trate. Why will not be both possitive? The respect is one of the primary things to understand a participatory group. The important thing is to put all in information group.

TK

Tibor Katelbach Tue 31 Oct 2017 8:35AM

Thank you for this great feedback , I couldn't be in Madrid but I'm convince collaboration cannot move forward without experimentation, as we are experimenting Loomio , I think we should open up and let proposals come to the working group, by Opening Data Sets.
so I'm wondering if at some point , we could request access to data sets (list of particpants, programs, events ...etc) to try to build pragmatic demos based on the tools of the people or the organisations in this and other groups. The idea is to get a working group moving to get some functional and visual stuff moving forward promoting the ECA initiative. We'll then be able to interact and even maybe make things better to represent the ECA efforts and maybe innovate with new ways of thinking, conceiving and implementing together. Maybe if we show multiple solutions in action , maybe we'll be able to convince the participating people to use one or many of these tools ?
I second the thought : "live what we preech" concept , but also "Eat our own Food" , so let's continue planting seeds, letting them grow and see what fruits we'll get , are we open enough to try it ?

M

Margarita Tue 31 Oct 2017 9:16AM

Yes, I think we are in the way to seed,and conceiving and implementing together in the ways all the people be satisfied and comfortable. We are learning together, and I understand that It isn´t exist the "best way", this is a entelequia, because we are different, and at the same time we have to understand and take part in the process to be into it, because participatory and collaborative process will be the future. A mandatory norm, an obligation wont be the response. We are construction in action.

M

Margarita Tue 31 Oct 2017 9:19AM

Thanks to ECA to arrange a meeting for understand a little more what are the situation, and if it not be now perfect, sure we are in the path to understand a little more than yesterday!!

TK

Tibor Katelbach Tue 31 Oct 2017 9:24AM

I beleive it's essentiel for us to aim to reach massive online participation
it'll be the only way
- we can reach people who can't be in presential events
- we can have a relatively real and exaustive proposal dynamic
- we can really interact and really decide democraticly
offcourse this will need real tools and even more abandoning resistance to change
We managed to accept "emails" as a fundamental communication system change
We'll manage transitionning our decision processes at least within the groups working for the commons

ZB

Z. Blace Tue 31 Oct 2017 9:27AM

I would agree with you if the context was not very specific: international networking, coordination, collaboration and promotion...So sorry but phone calls and meetings in person are annual luxury not solution.
If people can not face this challenge - than they should propose alternative 'representatives' and/or develop modes to do this with limited resources of the moment - no?

TK

Tibor Katelbach Tue 31 Oct 2017 9:31AM

It is a great period for the commons, we are on totaly experimental contexts,
so we need to open up to the maximum experimentations, with respect to our essence, ethics and objectives.
Our diversity is rich for the movement , they are not differences nore obstacles,
They will allow us to build systems that can interact and communicate whatever the context.

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Tue 31 Oct 2017 10:56AM

An email list as an outcome for this work group? I am confused. This cant be true? Isn't this against the ECA's own value set, which promises transparency in communication; group email closes out people and makes it very hard to join for others. It leaves communication poorly documented. With respect to offline meetings, they are necessary for building commitment and networks and personal friendships, but the actual group work can in my opinion only be done through online platforms in such a distributed organisation as the ECA. Face to Face meetings put the barrier for participation very high, it is only a small "elite" who can effort money/time wise to go to those meetings. And what about the ecological footprint? Online tools give us much more opportunities for experimentation, as @tiborkatelbach pointed out experimentation is - especially for this work group - of essence, if we want to have just a bit of credibility. Why anyone should listen to us, the Finnish tax administration is more innovative.

TK

Tibor Katelbach Tue 31 Oct 2017 11:50AM

maybe we could try an online meeting for those who couldn't make it madrid and build up a few more links amongst us, wdyt ?

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Tue 31 Oct 2017 1:07PM

Good idea, I am interested. Would be of course important that some people present in Madrid would join as well. We could develop some sort of work program for this group, a list of issues, actions, proposals, references etc. Questions: (a) How do we get a few of the people that do not follow Loomio involved? (b) How do we tap into the resources / proposals / development that was already done by and for ECA? We don't want to start from scratch and dismiss earlier efforts. (c) Is there another platform where ECA activities take place online? Maybe people work on the same issues but in a parallel universe and we are unaware of each other?

ZB

Z. Blace Tue 31 Oct 2017 1:56PM

I would also support this meeting to happen, though I was there - since I joined other group I only visited this one at very (non-conclusive) end.

Just for the record no decisions have been made in any kind of concesual way in Madrid ECA that would be final and strongly binding for future of ECA.
This is likely it's most weak point.

AH

Anna Harris Tue 31 Oct 2017 2:55PM

I'd be interested to join this online group though I haven't taken part in the discussion so far.

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Tue 31 Oct 2017 5:17PM

Hi Anna, the only recent discussion regarding our work group is in this Loomio thread you are reading (beside the face to face Madrid sessions), there was also an attempt to use a cryptpad to introduce each other and set an agenda prior to Madrid, see here: https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/1/edit/KrfxVHnTCx3b+Xjq9ycYIQ/wH88XGaoY3He7o8ISxS1psOn/ ; @thomasdegroot1 started it but it did not take really off, but perhaps we can still use it for now.

OK

Poll Created Tue 31 Oct 2017 5:29PM

Participatory Tools Work Group - First Online Meeting Closed Fri 3 Nov 2017 11:15AM

I just included two time slots per day, so 10 am means your preference is for a meeting during the day, if you select 3 pm you prefer an afternoon or evening meeting. We can then specific the exact time. You can leave any time constraints in the comments. Thanks!

Results

UTC Votes OK LA AP M TK SH D ZB AH LT
Mon  6 Nov 2017  8:00AM
5
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Mon  6 Nov 2017  1:00PM
6
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Tue  7 Nov 2017  8:00AM
5
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Tue  7 Nov 2017  1:00PM
5
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Wed  8 Nov 2017  8:00AM
6
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Wed  8 Nov 2017  1:00PM
5
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Thu  9 Nov 2017  8:00AM
7
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Thu  9 Nov 2017  1:00PM
5
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Fri 10 Nov 2017  8:00AM
5
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Fri 10 Nov 2017  1:00PM
4
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

10 of 226 people have voted (4%)

AH

Anna Harris Tue 31 Oct 2017 7:01PM

Mon 6 Nov 2017 8:00AM
Wed 8 Nov 2017 1:00PM
Mon 6 Nov 2017 1:00PM
Tue 7 Nov 2017 8:00AM

It varies every day

LA

Lizete Alves Tue 31 Oct 2017 11:11PM

Wed 8 Nov 2017 8:00AM
Thu 9 Nov 2017 1:00PM
Fri 10 Nov 2017 8:00AM

It varies; my schedule is very often "sabotaged" 😖

AH

Anna Harris Wed 1 Nov 2017 8:17AM

Wed 8 Nov 2017 1:00PM
Tue 7 Nov 2017 8:00AM
Thu 9 Nov 2017 1:00PM
Mon 6 Nov 2017 1:00PM
Mon 6 Nov 2017 8:00AM

It varies every day

D

Draft Wed 1 Nov 2017 5:57PM

Thu 9 Nov 2017 1:00PM
Tue 7 Nov 2017 1:00PM
Wed 8 Nov 2017 1:00PM
Fri 10 Nov 2017 1:00PM
Mon 6 Nov 2017 1:00PM

I'm in America, can't make it in the morning for you ;)

Thank you for the poll ! I'm very interested in this meeting !

ZB

Z. Blace Thu 2 Nov 2017 8:22AM

Thu 9 Nov 2017 8:00AM
Wed 8 Nov 2017 1:00PM
Tue 7 Nov 2017 8:00AM
Wed 8 Nov 2017 8:00AM
Fri 10 Nov 2017 8:00AM
Mon 6 Nov 2017 1:00PM
Tue 7 Nov 2017 1:00PM

lets have more than one meeting planned as it is anyway too much to communicate for just short session

AH

Anna Harris Fri 3 Nov 2017 8:25AM

Tue 7 Nov 2017 8:00AM
Mon 6 Nov 2017 8:00AM
Mon 6 Nov 2017 1:00PM
Thu 9 Nov 2017 8:00AM
Wed 8 Nov 2017 1:00PM

It varies every day

AP

Alice Priori Wed 1 Nov 2017 9:10AM

Hi everybody
I was also in Madrid attending the ECA meeting but could only join this working group on the first day. Thank you Margarita and the others for sharing the records of what happened. I´m happy to also share my experience of the ECA meeting during the online session next week. Morning sessions are easier for me but I´ll try to arrange in case we do chose another date/time I did not mark as available. To follow up on the discussion I do agree on the need to continue experimenting and using both online and offline tools. I also support the idea of having self-organized working groups´offline/online (for the offline we could check if there are ECA funds to support people´s mobility/travels??) and I am absolutely in favor of using a platform and nto mailing list for the reasons mentioned by Oliver. I also feel we should soon get more clarity on what exactly this group wants to focus/work and maybe we will create sub-working groups?

M

Margarita Wed 1 Nov 2017 12:25PM

I agree with you Alice, for make a discussion online, and why not, continue offline but reporting every time how the sucess has been to online group, and resumes all the information here.
Also, I think it will be necesary to split our force in different groups.

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Wed 1 Nov 2017 12:44PM

How about @stevehuckle and @zblace ? Can you join any of the dates?

SH

Steve Huckle Wed 1 Nov 2017 12:55PM

Hi @oliverkalleinen - yes, I can join. Before I vote, may I ask about the timezone? I presume it's Central European Time? And what tool will such a meeting use? Forgive me if I missed that part of the discussion; much earlier in the thread, we began a discussion about those tools (and a few suggestions were touted), but I'm not sure any decision was made....

SH

Steve Huckle Wed 1 Nov 2017 1:03PM

Ah - forgive me - I just read an explanation of the times proposed. Sorry! I'll vote now ;)

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Fri 3 Nov 2017 11:19AM

Looking at the poll I suggest 2 sessions, one afternoon session and one morning session: November 6 at 15:00 CET and November 9 at 10:00 CET. We can shift the times +/- 2 hours but perhaps it might get tricky to find agreement on that. @lizetealves perhaps you can sabotage your other schedule and join one of those?

What platform you suggest for the sessions? An audio/video conference call might get tricky with 7 or more participants. An online chat? I would like that we would work on an actual text document, not just have some cryptical notes which nobody else understands. It is not ideal, but would a google doc with chat and comment function be an option? Crpytpad seems to have no chat function so far, also it is a question how sustainable cryptpad is with a 50MB data limit on the free account.

AH

Anna Harris Fri 3 Nov 2017 11:23AM

Zoom is fine for 7 or more people. I think audio/ video is best.

LT

Luis Tiago Fri 3 Nov 2017 11:26AM

appear.in is also quite simple and works very well

TK

Tibor Katelbach Fri 3 Nov 2017 11:33AM

great for the dates
for more than 5 participants , we tend to use Google Hangout, it's google but it's works ,

also it's interesting cause we can record for sharing (for those who can't attend )

we also have a process of turning video off
only the person who talks turns the video on
we take notes into a collaborative pad for any shared links or thoughts

SH

Steve Huckle Fri 3 Nov 2017 12:40PM

Google Hangouts is a good resource, but longer term, we should try and find some open source, distributed equivalent, more in keeping with the commons. Come to think of it, I should probably try and transition away from Google Mail, too. Uhmmmm...

ZB

Z. Blace Fri 3 Nov 2017 12:47PM

meet.jit.si ( http://meet.jit.si ) good in modern free browsers
and has apps also

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Fri 3 Nov 2017 12:51PM

Hi Zeljko, how is the quality with meet.jit.si with 7 or more participants? Any experience? Thanks. Oliver

ZB

Z. Blace Fri 3 Nov 2017 1:13PM

backbone is good so if all input lines are good
we should be fine

TK

Tibor Katelbach Sat 4 Nov 2017 5:35AM

Hi Zeljko, how is the quality with meet.jit.si ( http://meet.jit.si ) with 7 or more participants? Any experience?

Yes we use it often under 4people but
Beyond it get's a bit unstable not easy to explain precisly, so against our ethics, hangout , appear.in ( http://appear.in ) is quite good to but there is no recording

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Sat 4 Nov 2017 10:32AM

Okay, my suggestion for the online meeting would be as follow:
we try first here: https://appear.in/participatorytools
please check the link if it works, update or change your browser if it doesnt. I like the simplicity of just having an easy to remember link, also for later, no sign-up or log-in required. We can consider http://meet.jit.si for the future if audio quality works better than now, we also had some problems with it.

If quality in appear.in suffers too much we move the session to hangouts. Please make sure that hangout works on your machine. It currently doesn't work with Firefox, for Safari you need to install google audio/video plug ins, I believe the plugins are included in Chrome. I think recording of the session is not necessary if we have a good protocol. My aim is anyway to produce an actual document as outcome, something like a work program for the work group.

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Sun 5 Nov 2017 10:19PM

So see you all at https://appear.in/participatorytools Monday 6.11. 15:00 CET Please use headphones!!!!
The topic is (at least from my side): what is the work-program for our work group for the next 6 month? I assume a work group should do some work...
we can us cryptpad as starting point for writing our program https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/1/edit/KrfxVHnTCx3b+Xjq9ycYIQ/wH88XGaoY3He7o8ISxS1psOn/

SH

Steve Huckle Mon 6 Nov 2017 8:15AM

Ah, was the afternoon of the 6th the majority vote, then? Unfortunately, I can't make that :( I hope the meeting goes well...

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Mon 6 Nov 2017 11:45AM

Hi Steve, the next session is already on November 9th, at 10 CET. From the poll I picked the two dates where most people could join, hope you can join on 9th. @annaharris I think it is okay to also record the sessions, I think this is what we will figure out today how to do it best.

SH

Steve Huckle Mon 6 Nov 2017 12:03PM

9th should be fine - looking forward to hearing how today's meeting goes....

M

Margarita Mon 6 Nov 2017 8:37AM

Sorry! I will not be able to attend this call. If is possible count on me for future action of the group, and please, report for be aware of everything. Thank you so much!

LA

Lizete Alves Mon 6 Nov 2017 8:47AM

Same here. I have board meeting today, can't make it. Hope the meeting goes well and productively, and I'll catch up later. Sorry

AH

Anna Harris Mon 6 Nov 2017 9:32AM

It seems a pity not to record sessions, since several people can't be there, and it is technically easy to do so. I would have preferred that choice to be made by the group, rather than an arbitrary decision by Oliver. We have found, in the collaboration group in which I participate, that recording is invaluable!

AH

Anna Harris Mon 6 Nov 2017 11:55AM

Thank you Oliver, and thanks for arranging these sessions. I'm going to go for the one on the 9th, suits me better.

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Mon 6 Nov 2017 2:05PM

I am now in https://appear.in/participatorytools Please join.

TK

Tibor Katelbach Mon 6 Nov 2017 2:21PM

my connection is really bad i'm trying to connect since 15min, it seems elements are against me joining
I'll try running back home, maybe things will be better from there but that'll be in min 40min

LT

Luis Tiago Mon 6 Nov 2017 4:11PM

Hello, the result of today talk can be read in the shared document : https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/1/edit/KrfxVHnTCx3b+Xjq9ycYIQ/wH88XGaoY3He7o8ISxS1psOn
. Please leave you comments and and what you feel is needed .Thanks

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Mon 6 Nov 2017 5:34PM

Hi, as Luis mentioned above, we had today the first attempt of a work group meeting. Here a short report: present were Luis and me, Tibor could not join by some technical reasons. We started in https://appear.in/participatorytools with video turned off; audio quality was medium, but acceptable, but we had drop-outs. It is not easy to say if dropouts were because of appear.in or if it was poor connection on our ends We therefore went to cryptpad to continue the conversation in writing. Since we were only two people it worked quite well.

We first stated briefly on what topics we personally would like to work on within this work-group. Luis than suggested to make an ECA member survey on their personal use of collaborative tools. We spent the rest of the time to sketch this survey. We both felt this is a good initiative to get more data on what people actually use, what tools they would prefer etc. This is only a draft and needs still improvement. See our work-pad for details: https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/1/edit/KrfxVHnTCx3b+Xjq9ycYIQ/wH88XGaoY3He7o8ISxS1psOn/

AP

Alice Priori Mon 6 Nov 2017 10:49PM

Dear all,
Sorry I´m reading only now about the meeting of today - generally, I think 1 day of preparation/communication to call for a meeting is really short timing. I only manage to read the conversations when I get them into my email - which is always one day later. I think we should take this into consideration for future deadlines, but great that there will be a session on Thursday 9th! Counting on being there. I´m using Zoom for online sessions with our project and there is no probelm to have 10, 20 or more people...I could share the link and we could use it if we are interested to test it as ECA. In that case, everyone should download zoom, it takes 10 min,it is possible to record and to write in a chat.

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Tue 7 Nov 2017 8:51AM

Hi Alice, the session times were announced 4 days ago after people had 3 days to vote on the dates, the message you saw was just a reminder. I believe a week is a reasonable lead time, if it is much longer people's schedules might change already again. Or what do you think?
I noticed that the free plan of zoom has a 40 minutes time limit for group meetings. https://zoom.us/pricing Do you have a pro account? Or do you just restart the meeting after 40 minutes? I think it is good we test different platforms, so if you want to create a zoom meeting for the 9th and share the link, we could try it. Thanks. Oliver

TK

Tibor Katelbach Tue 7 Nov 2017 9:44AM

Hi All sorry for last night , things just didn't go as expected
good thing we have the back up date on the 9th
we could test Zoom why not , it works on Linux as well
Maybe we could ask them for a sponsoring account for the commons
Cheers
Tibor

AH

Anna Harris Tue 7 Nov 2017 10:20AM

Hi Oliver, I can't access the crytpad work pad. Is there some other way to send it?

TK

Tibor Katelbach Tue 7 Nov 2017 10:24AM

if you are opening it from Gmail he adds a whole bunch of analysis parameters you have to remove
https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/1/edit/KrfxVHnTCx3b+Xjq9ycYIQ/wH88XGaoY3He7o8ISxS1psOn/
copy and paste the link itself instead of clicking on it

M

Margarita Tue 7 Nov 2017 10:42AM

Hi, I have included some comments in yesterday's report. Thanks! https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/1/edit/KrfxVHnTCx3b+Xjq9ycYIQ/wH88XGaoY3He7o8ISxS1psOn/

SH

Steve Huckle Tue 7 Nov 2017 11:27AM

Great report, guys - thanks for getting it all up and running...

M

Margarita Tue 7 Nov 2017 1:09PM

Yes. Thank you! :slight_smile:

AH

Anna Harris Tue 7 Nov 2017 11:43AM

Hi Tibor,

Copying and pasting brings the same result. Now on a dfferent computer using Firefox, and Ecosia search. before I was an Ipad. Both ways cannot connect. Any more ideas?

ZB

Z. Blace Tue 7 Nov 2017 12:44PM

#1 sorry I missed the call as I had emergency work :-/
Will try to join on 9th and process the info till then!

#2 folks your report looks great. I would only warn that making big plans might be counter productive if immediate and more urgent botlenecks are not resolved fairly fast (i.e. bad loomio use)...

#3 Pads are excellent for real-time writting, but terrible for leaving comments. I would suggest to use GoogleDocs or alike service that is good at commenting in non-real time!

AH

Anna Harris Tue 7 Nov 2017 4:54PM

thanks Tibor, managed to connect with the pad finally.

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Tue 7 Nov 2017 8:12PM

What's your response to the survey idea? Luis and me liked it because (a) we can send the word out, that our work group is actually working, and (b) it could also create better commitment to whatever toolkit we come up with, because people were asked beforehand and we have some data. I agree with @zblace that the internal communication right now is not flowing very well.

JR

Jon Richter Wed 8 Nov 2017 12:09AM

Recently we have good experiences with https://jitsi.riot.im for teleconferences, i.e. https://jitsi.riot.im/ECAParticipatoryTools

This is well integrated with https://riot.im - I suppose people here are using Rocket.Chat already? Then I'm interested in talking to the DevOps people in this group about a federation attempt via https://github.com/exul/matrix-rocketchat :)

At a broader level, we may look at a much wider diversity of software that can be scoped within a questionnaire. We have been exploring software inventories with the Mikorizal, Open Apps and Inventaire collectives, and wonder if such an evolving assessment would find a good place within a continuous and collaborative Wikidata/-base environment.

I would like to add at least the running software artefacts from allmende.io to the discussion, next to the apps provided by the other awesome librehosters, like the whole Framasphere.

SH

Steve Huckle Wed 8 Nov 2017 8:22AM

I think I'll defer to Jon's superior knowledge. I will add, though, that recently, I discovered the riot stack, and I'd suggest that its philosophy would sit well here. https://github.com/exul/matrix-rocketchat looks interesting....

JL

Julien Lecaille Wed 8 Nov 2017 8:28AM

Hello Jon

There's already a channel for the ECA on Matrix with : https://riot.im/app/#/room/#commonsassembly:matrix.org
which was created last year by @lassegullvagsaetre

JR

Jon Richter Thu 22 Feb 2018 2:29PM

Hi @zblace @stevehuckle and @julienlecaille there is progress on two processes mentionned here:

  • According to Pierre Ozoux from IndieHosters, who recently visited FOSDEM, the Rocket.Chat developer aspires to federate with the Matrix ecosystem by the end of the year.
  • Today Pierre responded to a comment that also mentions the Wikidata Commons as a possible centralised store for publicly shared ontologies / vocabularies / namespaces / collections. In the long term, those could be fed from our own Wikibase or Semantic MediaWiki repositories, forming a federated network. The experiences with Maxime Lathuilière's Inventaire.io library system for home sharing show that beautiful and usable interfaces are achievable. Pierre's idea is to use it to offer the Nextcloud App an automatic list of providers when searching for a "Cloud" App, since Dropbox would set you off to go immediately with an account. NC instead asks for your credentials.

This is directly related with https://www.loomio.org/d/Nd6tWsX1/participatory-tools-for-democracy-collaborative-online-tools/17, since all those online tools need a home. The infrastructure which they utilise shall be considered a computational commons for long-term longivity of the basis below our democratic conversation software.

This also links with the more user facing developments happening within the Open App Ecosystem https://www.loomio.org/d/QABIXsCG/open-app-ecosystem

cc @tiborkatelbach @maiadereva @sylviafredriksson @silkehelfrich

AP

Alice Priori Wed 8 Nov 2017 8:49AM

Hello, if we are interested in testing Zoom for our meeting on Thursday 9th at 10am - here is the link to the Zoom account I´ve created. Make sure to download Zoom before it takes about 10min.

Alice Priori is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.

Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android: https://zoom.us/j/7094472725

Or iPhone one-tap :
US: +16699006833,,7094472725# or +16465588656,,7094472725#
Or Telephone:
Dial(for higher quality, dial a number based on your current location):
US: +1 669 900 6833 or +1 646 558 8656
Meeting ID: 709 447 2725
International numbers available: https://zoom.us/zoomconference?m=nAEL3hKwZlVLvw_bVQHlqPyyxzmkh1N_

LGS

Lasse Gullvåg Sætre Wed 8 Nov 2017 8:58AM

Jitsi is good, free and open source. Together with Riot (Matrix) they should serve these needs. And we set up the infrastructure for it a year ago, here: https://riot.im/app/#/room/#commonsassembly:matrix.org

SH

Steve Huckle Wed 8 Nov 2017 9:48AM

I just joined https://riot.im/app/#/room/#commonsassembly:matrix.org - awesome. Are we going to meet there tomorrow?

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Wed 8 Nov 2017 10:15AM

Thanks for all the input. I am happy this thread is active, although we perhaps should branch out into multiple thematic threads soon. A few comments: Jitsi was mentioned before but people (including me) had quality issues with groups larger than 4. This should be tested regularly to see if that is still an issue in the future. Perhaps the integration with riot is more reliable. riot.im as well looks promising for future development, especially if we get it installed on our own server. In the moment I nevertheless would be hesitant to move activity to riot.im, it would further splinter the communication structure. The room hasn't been too active, mainly a rss-bot that pulls articles from a blog. It is also not mentioned on the ECA website. But it should be definitely on the watch-list. But it is precisely this different attitudes and experiences we would like to capture with the survey @luistiago and me suggest. We would be especially interested, what platforms members already use on a daily base, because a toolkit will be more acceptable for people if it contains a lot of familiar tools.

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Wed 8 Nov 2017 10:20AM

Reminder: next meeting of the workgroup is scheduled for November 9 at 10:00 CET. Since Alice set up the meeting at zoom I suggest we start from there: https://zoom.us/j/7094472725 Check the link beforehand and install zoom if needed. Please use headphones.

LT

Luis Tiago Wed 8 Nov 2017 1:16PM

Hello, remarkable all your inputs . I believe we can get to a upper level here facilitating the inclusion and motivation of the actual members and also new commoners with such a diverse approach, and background experiences.
My opinion for the actual state where we stand , is to understand directly from the members, what are the tools we are using to communicate and organize our self's, so we can proposed a kit of tools to work on/with .

We have a very diverse range of tools like referred here, but, more than the tools , at least for me, is facilitating our participation in a easy-in mode, with our daily routines, and gradually we can make the decisions in order to improve our methods and tools, aligned with our purposes.
I could not attend to the meeting today. Looking forward to read/listen to your conversations .
Thanks

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Wed 8 Nov 2017 1:37PM

Hi Luis, the next meeting is November 9 at 10:00 CET (Berlin, Brussels etc.). So you probably can still make it. https://zoom.us/j/7094472725

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Wed 8 Nov 2017 1:45PM

Hello work group! This thread gets quite long and mixed up. Would it be okay for you if we branch this thread into 3 or 4 separate threads?
- Participatory Tools for Democracy: coordination of online work meetings
- Participatory Tools for Democracy: discussion of collaborative online tools
- Participatory Tools for Democracy: discussion of participatory cultures & processes

Any other suggestions? Thanks. Oliver

JR

Jon Richter Wed 8 Nov 2017 5:33PM

Sounds good to split up as proposed.

Sorry for not being able to join the call, but we're here to work on free and libre infrastructures, why I will not download and install a proprietary app, if we have open alternatives at hands that allow to join with a click: Jitsi, even with issues, but I've also seen Appear.in calls with 10+ participants and a lot more being available. Even Google Hangouts simply works in the browser, if one needs. And that's regularily very stable.

Talk to you next time; greetings, Jon

SH

Steve Huckle Wed 8 Nov 2017 5:47PM

I will join, but like @jonrichter, I wasn't entirely happy at having to install some software that has a paid motive....

SH

Steve Huckle Thu 9 Nov 2017 8:49AM

Turns out that some Health & Safety Suited Types are touring my office this morning, so I've retreated to the safety of my home. That means I'm communicating over a mobile network, hence I'm not going to switch on video during the meeting - I hope that's okay. Besides - it's early (and I look like death), so that's probably for the best...

OK

Oliver Kalleinen Thu 9 Nov 2017 11:32AM

We just concluded the second online meeting of the work group. A report will shortly follow. As suggested above I created 3 additional threads for this work group so that our discussion can be a bit more structured. The "Meet the Working Group" thread has perhaps done it's duty.
- https://www.loomio.org/d/jO1rvnuh/participatory-tools-for-democracy-participatory-cultures-processes
- https://www.loomio.org/d/Nd6tWsX1/participatory-tools-for-democracy-collaborative-online-tools
- https://www.loomio.org/d/q9xF46nz/participatory-tools-for-democracy-coordination-of-online-work-meetings

Feel free to add more threads if the need arises, please add "Participatory Tools for Democracy: " as a prefix to the thread title so that we can keep a better overview of the work group related threads since we don't have our own subgroup.

M

Margarita Sat 11 Nov 2017 6:51PM

I am so sorry, I couldn´t attend the call either. Thank you very much Oliver for the report :slight_smile:

AH

Anna Harris Thu 9 Nov 2017 11:36AM

Sorry I did not make the meeting this mornig. Thank you Oliver for these three threads.

AP

Alice Priori Tue 28 Nov 2017 10:31AM

Dear all,
This is to inform you that a doodle was made in the Loomio thread where we discuss our online sessions. You find the Loomio conversations here: https://www.loomio.org/d/q9xF46nz/participatory-tools-for-democracy-coordination-of-online-work-meetings

And here is the Doodle: https://doodle.com/poll/f4brfss4tddytyb2
Please take part until Friday 1st December so that then we can fix 2 online sessions to give more possibilities to join.
Best
Alice

AH

Anna Harris Tue 28 Nov 2017 12:20PM

Hello Alice, I don't have time to attend the meetings but I am still interested to receive the notifications and discussion.

Thanks Anna

TK

Tibor Katelbach Wed 6 Dec 2017 5:03AM

Hi everyone
what's the result of the doodle ?
has there been a 3rd visio meeting ?
it's between 12 and 15PM CET
bur I don't think I saw anything go by , is it maintained ?

SH

Silke Helfrich Tue 14 Aug 2018 2:07PM

Dear all,

if any of you is participating at the Degrowth Conference in Malmö
and can help filling this gap Ashish Kortari points to for the
sessions on August 21 and August 22, please let him know (cced)

My very best

Silke

-------- Weitergeleitete Nachricht --------

Betreff:

Commons at Malmo?

Datum:
Tue, 14 Aug 2018 11:58:31 +0530

Von:
Ashish Kothari chikikothari@gmail.com ( chikikothari@gmail.com )

Antwort
an:
chikikothari@gmail.com

An:
David Bollier david@bollier.org ( david@bollier.org ), Silke Helfrich
silke.helfrich@gmx.de ( silke.helfrich@gmx.de )

Kopie
(CC):
Shrishtee Bajpai shrishteebajpai@gmail.com ( shrishteebajpai@gmail.com ),
Ashish Kothari chikikothari@gmail.com ( chikikothari@gmail.com )

Dear David and Silke,

are either of you going to be at the Degrowth conference in
Malmo? Or someone else who has a good grasp of the Commons
movements?

I am coordinating a couple of sessions on the idea of a Global
Alternatives Confluence (pl. see attached), as follows, and it
would be great to have one or more people from the Commons
approach there, to speak about it, and to see how we can link up
through such a Confluence.

21st Aug, Room 202 (ABF), 10 am to 2 pm

24th Aug, Room Stora Salen (Moriskan), 2 to 3.30 pm
Do pl. let me know,

thanks,

Ashish

NEW!’Alternative Futures: India Unshackled’, https://www.amazon.in/dp/B077S479W4
and
www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org ( http://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org )

Ashish Kothari
Kalpavriksh
Apt 5 Shree Datta Krupa
908 Deccan Gymkhana
Pune 411004, India
Tel: 91-20-25654239; 91-20-25675450
http://kalpavriksh.org
www.vikalpsangam.org ( http://www.vikalpsangam.org )
www.iccaconsortium.org ( http://www.iccaconsortium.org )
www.acknowlej.org ( http://www.acknowlej.org )
http://ashishkothari51.blogspot.in/
Twitter: @chikikothari

AME

Ana Margarida Esteves Tue 14 Aug 2018 3:18PM

I need to confirm, as I will be in three other panels, but in principle I could help out on the 21st. On the 24th I'm already busy at that time. Could you please e-mail them and let them know? I'm on vacation with no computer access and can't do it from the simple phone I take to the beach.

Could you please ask them to contact me?

Many thanks,

Ana Margarida

JR

Jon Richter Thu 23 Aug 2018 1:25PM

Hi Silke,

I participated in Ashishs first GAC session the day before yesterday, another one is scheduled for tomorrow, and mentionned new federated communication infrastructures like Riot.im/Matrix.org or the Federated Wiki, and how they might change our thinking by offering different kinds of scripts. The chorus of voices was of interesting here and produced nods in the round. http://federated.wiki/view/welcome-visitors/view/federated-wiki-introduction/view/chorus-of-voices

Additionally I mentionned our efforts to restart the global mapping with Intermapping, and promised to get back to him once we have usable outcomes to present.

Greetings,

Jon