Social.Coop is joining Meet.Coop
This thread was started to discuss whether or not to join Meet.Coop. https://org.meet.coop/ We discussed, decided yes, and now we need to make it happen.
(old links: Here is a pad for comparing options: https://pad.disroot.org/p/Social.Coop_Video_Call_Options
Notes from Sept 4th Meeting with Meet.Coop are here: https://cloud.owncube.com/s/GBPZYYDssykKJtn)
Django Sat 10 Dec 2022 10:34PM
How can social.coop members use socialcoop.meet.coop apparently an invite link is needed? (Maybe we can document this info in the updated wiki)
Giacomo Thu 31 Mar 2022 7:29PM
Inviato da ProtonMail mobile
-------- Messaggio originale --------
On 31 mar 2022, 20:22, Matt Noyes (via Loomio) < [email protected]> ha scritto:
Matt Noyes shared a check outcome.
Meet.Coop Board of Stewards ( https://www.loomio.org/p/btqWLw8f?stance_token=nqEjTXiYLNnu4JrPS8DhfzUV&utm_campaign=poll_mailer&utm_medium=email&utm_source=outcome_created )
@Sam Whited @Giacomo and @Matt Noyes indicated interest. We are meeting to talk about it and will keep Social.Coop ( http://Social.Coop ) folks informed.
Meet.Coop ( http://Meet.Coop ) is creating a Board of Stewards, a group of operational members and users and would like to have a Social.Coop ( http://Social.Coop ) member to participate. More details here: https://forum.meet.coop/t/board-of-stewards/923/2 If you are interested in learning more and possibly participating in the board, vote "yes" and we can schedule a call and, if multiple people want to do it, an election.
Tue 15 Mar
( http://meet.coop/ )
meet.coop - The Online Meeting Cooperative ( http://meet.coop/ )
Online meeting and conferencing tools, powered by renewable energy running on cooperatively owned and managed infrastructure.
3 - Yes
0 - No
Have been interested in this and participating in some of the Meet.Coop ( http://Meet.Coop ) gatherings. Eager to see this multi-cooperative project succeed.
1 - yes
Tobias Damm-Luhr @tobiasfdl:
G I McGrew:
Neil - @[email protected]:
Dave V. ND9JR:
Mark Simmonds (Co-op Culture & Platform 6):
Naveen Roy Vikkram:
Tim McCormick (tmccomick @ gmail, twitter, etc):
Stephanie Jo Kent:
Remy Rose Way:
Clayton ([email protected]):
M. Page-Lieberman - @[email protected]:
holly jo Sparks:
Felipe Schmidt Fonseca:
Malatesta S Hat - @matts:
Gil Scott Fitzgerald:
Michel Alexandre Salim:
Caitlin Waddick, @[email protected] :
Nithin Coca @ncoca:
Chris Croome (Webarchitects Co-operative):
The Blockchain Socialist:
Clark C. Evans:
Benjamin Mako Hill:
1 - yes
1 - yes
Caitlin Waddick, @[email protected] Thu 31 Mar 2022 6:50PM
Maybe, put me on a “Wait Listen” for this committee. I do not have the ability to support this work right now. I would be willing to participate another year. If you would like to invite me to a meeting as a non voting observer or witness, after June 2022, … I can get clued in.
Tue 8 Mar 2022 5:02PM
Have been interested in this and participating in some of the Meet.Coop gatherings. Eager to see this multi-cooperative project succeed.
Poll Created Tue 8 Mar 2022 5:02PM
Meet.Coop Board of Stewards Closed Tue 15 Mar 2022 3:01PM
@Sam Whited @Giacomo and @Matt Noyes indicated interest. We are meeting to talk about it and will keep Social.Coop folks informed.
Meet.Coop is creating a Board of Stewards, a group of operational members and users and would like to have a Social.Coop member to participate. More details here: https://forum.meet.coop/t/board-of-stewards/923/2 If you are interested in learning more and possibly participating in the board, vote "yes" and we can schedule a call and, if multiple people want to do it, an election.
3 of 152 people have voted (1%)
Matt Noyes Thu 25 Feb 2021 5:58AM
Glad it worked! So far the policy is to treat it as a commons, so I suppose we can use it for non-social.coop business, but if there is income involved we should contribute more to Social.Coop. (So, when I cancel my Zoom account, which I use for language lessons among other things, I will increase my Social.Coop contribution.)
Nathan Schneider Thu 25 Feb 2021 5:25AM
I'm in! Can you remind me what the policy is? Can we use it for anything or just Social.coop business?
KC Terry Sat 27 Feb 2021 7:52PM
I'm looking forward to trying this out too. Thanks to everyone who helped set this up!
mike_hales Wed 24 Feb 2021 10:16AM
Creating rooms, customised to needs (recording, moderation rights, etc) and shared as necessary with other members, is nice & easy 🙂 The thing that may need more focus and learning is the administration of user accounts. So the work that @David Mynors and @Matt Noyes are into - registration etc - is key. Taking a little time in this development loop will pay back later, I would say. Greenlight is not 100% helpful when it comes to account admin (but hacking an improved interface is some way down meet.coop's todo list).
Josh Davis Wed 24 Feb 2021 5:17AM
Speaking of testing, I created a room called "Test Room" and shared it with Emi, David, and you. That part seems pretty straight forward.
Matt Noyes Wed 24 Feb 2021 2:27AM
Okay -- we have the instance. I have set up the admin account and accounts for @Josh Davis @emi do @David Mynors @Akshay and myself. David is setting up the registration form for social.coop members who want BBB accounts. I think we can be flexible about creating accounts for people who ask right away, but we do need to set up and test the registration process for new members before we announce it. What do you think?
Matt Noyes Thu 31 Dec 2020 6:54PM
Hope these times work across our time zones, Tokyo to Berlin...
Poll Created Thu 31 Dec 2020 6:54PM
Social.Coop - Meet.Coop working group meeting Closed Sun 3 Jan 2021 7:02PM
It is important for Mike Hales to be there, I think, but the three best times are all iffy for him. So I went with the top vote-getter. Hope this works for you Mike, if not we can communicate before/after.
Meeting to organize and set up our Meet.Coop membership and BBB account. Agenda here: https://cloud.disroot.org/s/dA7CoNEcfBzqFKg
Tue 19 Jan 2021 1:00PM
Tue 19 Jan 2021 9:00PM
Fri 22 Jan 2021 1:00PM
Fri 22 Jan 2021 9:00PM
Sun 24 Jan 2021 1:00PM
Sun 24 Jan 2021 9:00PM
7 of 7 people have voted (100%)
Matt Noyes Thu 24 Dec 2020 3:05AM
Okay -- so @emi do @mike_hales @David Mynors @Josh Davis @Akshay and I are the team that will coordinate the joining of Meet.Coop and the set up of our Big Blue Button account. Seems like a good number and mix of people. Thanks for volunteering! Time/Date poll coming...
Matt Noyes Fri 11 Dec 2020 7:06PM
Status update: the Community Working Group Ops team is seeking to set up a working group to coordinate the process of joining Meet.Coop and providing the service to Social.Coop members. If you are interested in joining the circle, please reply here or DM me.
Matt Noyes Wed 2 Sep 2020 10:53PM
I think that is fine, though about half of the discussion will be about social.coop specifically.
Hakanto Wed 2 Sep 2020 10:28PM
In the agenda, I'm reading "participants in Loomio poll, plus open to others". Would it be possible for me to bring someone from Resonate Co-op who isn't a member of Social.coop? I can think of a few people who'd be interested in being at the meeing and getting a sense for what the process of joining Meet.coop could look like for Resonate. More as spectators than participants. I would want the meeting to stay focused on the relationship between Meet.coop and Social.coop, of course
Wed 2 Sep 2020 4:53PM
Sorry, a conflict came up, and I can't make it.
I'm a member of an org with members who are contributors to meet.coop, so I'd been interested to attend on the opposite side with social.coop, as a potential client -- I've only heard about the project from coworkers on the contributor/provider end :)
Wed 2 Sep 2020 4:53PM
curious to participate (from user, organisational, and tech perspectives)
Wed 2 Sep 2020 4:53PM
Voting yes. After reviewing the comments and looking at the website I think if it's in our budget that joining a bigger coop and supporting cooperatively run services like these is awesome. I would absolutely use this as a member perk for myself.
Poll Created Wed 2 Sep 2020 4:52PM
RSVP Meeting with Meet.Coop Friday Sept 4 Closed Sat 5 Sep 2020 4:01PM
Can you attend the meeting with Oli and Graham from Meet.Coop?
Thanks for agreeing to join this call! Please put the date in your calendars. Feel free to invite other Social.Coop members.
A note on the meeting's purposes/agenda is here: https://pad.disroot.org/p/Matt-Mike-Meet-plans. Matt Noyes of social.coop will facilitate with the help of Mike Hales.
09:00 MST (15:00 UTC; 00:00JST +1day)
9 of 129 people have voted (6%)
Hakanto Thu 20 Aug 2020 3:57AM
I'm pretty new here, but I'd love to participate as well! I'm interested in the idea as a social co-op feature. I'm also a volunteer at Resonate Co-op -- Meet.coop comes up in discussion here and there because we will need solutions other than Jitsi once we grow a bit. This would give me some useful info to bring back to Resonate about what that process could look like.
Sophie Jerram Sat 8 Aug 2020 2:07AM
Middle of the night no good guys!
Bob Haugen Sat 8 Aug 2020 2:07AM
Either time is ok with me.
mike_hales Sat 8 Aug 2020 2:07AM
I have a commitment to cultivating meet.coop’s relationship with the work of significant activist communities - like social.coop.
Matt Noyes Sat 8 Aug 2020 2:07AM
Eager to have this conversation.
Poll Created Sat 8 Aug 2020 2:07AM
Meeting with Oli and Graham from Meet.Coop Closed Sat 15 Aug 2020 2:03AM
Thanks for agreeing to join this call! Please put the date in your calendars. Feel free to invite other Social.Coop members.
This is a date poll for members of Social.Coop to meet with members of Meet.Coop. A note on the meeting's purposes is here: https://pad.disroot.org/p/Matt-Mike-Meet-plans. Matt Noyes of social.coop will facilitate with the help of Mike Hales.
Fri 21 Aug 2020 3:00PM
Fri 4 Sep 2020 3:00PM
9 of 124 people have voted (7%)
Tue 28 Jul 2020 9:02AM
I would actually put a "maybe" if it had been an option, as I can't commit to it, but I would be interested to participate if it fits ok...
Tue 21 Jul 2020 9:12PM
I'm a NO vote bcos I'll be in the meeting as a member of meet.coop. By no means a conflict of interest, just an indication of who will be around the table in addition to votes here. I entered some further info about meet.coop in the pad. As this poll header says: yes, we very much want our user members in meet.coop to make an active contribution to development and/or operations.
Tue 21 Jul 2020 8:42PM
Not sure if it's appropriate to join since I haven't been so active on social.coop in a while, but I'd be down to join/participate in this! Excited about this idea.
Poll Created Tue 21 Jul 2020 8:20PM
Do you want to join in a Social.Coop - Meet.Coop meeting? Closed Tue 28 Jul 2020 8:01PM
Okay, so I count six people interested in participating. I will confer with Mike Hales about setting up a meeting and get back to everyone who voted with possible dates. I think we should also post a notice on Social.Coop, asking people to DM if they are interested, in case there are others who would like to join the call.
After discussion on Loomio (https://www.loomio.org/d/Ci7uHcyG/should-social-coop-join-the-online-meeting-cooperative-) we agreed to seek a meeting with people involve in Meet.Coop to explore the possibilities of joining Meet.Coop.
We need a couple of people from Meet.Coop who can answer questions about how Social.Coop might join, what it would entail, the process, the responsibilities involved, etc. On the Social.Coop side (of course these is overlap), it would be good to have people who might be prepared to play an active role. After we get a sense who wants to participate we can do a time poll.
11 of 120 people have voted (9%)
Danyl Strype Fri 26 Jun 2020 7:17AM
A few thoughts:
> I see a deal where we pay and get credits
AFAIK the main expenses in running servers are not consumables like bandwidth, but staff time for setup and upkeep. So pay-per-use pricing isn't really necessary. Also, from a marketing POV, all-you-can-eat pricing is much simpler for prospective user/members to understand. As Clay Shirky pointed out back in 2000:
"... users want predictable and simple pricing ... In situations where there is real competition, providers are usually forced to drop 'pay as you go' schemes in response to user preference, because if they don't, anyone who can offer flat-rate pricing becomes the market leader."
Keep in mind we're competing with datafarms that charge $0 to most users.
> Should we host a Jitsi instance? Or go in on hosting with others?
Given the above, it makes sense to work with another co-op who are already hosting conference servers. This allows social.coop to offer a robust service right away, while its techies can gain experience by helping out (ideally on production systems of a few of the conference software options). Down the track a bit, social.coop could decide to supply a conference service of it's own, and perhaps share it with whichever co-op service it partners with.
> if we do want to have a load of different apps with single sign-on I'd suggest we simply subscribe to Cloudron
There be dragons. Wouter would be able to confirm or correct, but I believe CommonsCloud started out using Cloudron but have since moved away from it. I've seen comments that suggest it isn't fully free code, which could be a reason.
Sat 27 Jun 2020 2:54AM
I just joined meet.coop's forums and am in the process of becoming a member. I am hosting a BBB server at http://communitybridge.com let me know if you need/want a room!
Chris Croome (Webarchitects Co-operative)
Tue 23 Jun 2020 7:02AM
As one of the founders of
meet.coop and someone who doesn't use
social.coop I think it would be appropriate for me to abstain! However I'd be happy to answer any questions and I'm keen to help make this happen.
Tue 23 Jun 2020 6:29AM
I tried signing up and got an error verifying my email address. Seems like a nice idea but until the interface is made normie-proof I'm not going to be too excited about it.
Mon 22 Jun 2020 4:40PM
To check for user-friendliness as an older person, I went through the process of signing up for a free personal space on BigBlueButton (BBB) and it went off without incident.
Mon 22 Jun 2020 8:20AM
I understand that it is free and easy to host a call on their demo server (provided by the Digital Life Collective) at https://demo.meet.coop
Sun 21 Jun 2020 4:58PM
I believe strongly in attaching to the foundations of organizations like meet.coop, and as far as I know we have no organized meeting platform yet.
Stephanie Jo Kent
Sun 21 Jun 2020 11:30AM
unfamiliar with both BBB and Meet.Coop but curious and hope I can join the meeting
Sun 21 Jun 2020 10:50AM
a bunch of stuff to work out still, but definitely good for taking the next step...
Sun 21 Jun 2020 9:09AM
I met some of the folks involved in meet.coop at Open 2018 London and have interacted with others in the Open App Ecosystem group and elsewhere. A thoroughly decent bunch.
Sun 21 Jun 2020 3:49AM
Reading the membership rules, it may not be mutually exclusive to join meet.coop and collective.tools. If so, we could gain access to both BBB and the Nextcloud suite offered by c.t.
Poll Created Sun 21 Jun 2020 3:07AM
Social.Coop will ask Meet.Coop to host a video meeting, using BBB, to discuss the possibility of our joining Meet.Coop as an organization. Closed Sun 28 Jun 2020 2:01AM
We have consent (no objections), so the next step is to ask Meet.Coop folks (several of whom are social.coop members) to figure out who can meet with us and some possible dates/times. chriscroome who is a founding member offered to help. @freescholar and @Yasuaki Kudo are also members, I think.
This proposal assumes that we believe it is worth taking the first step toward joining Meet.Coop, but it does not commit us to joining.
If you object, please indicate why. The goal here is minimum viability -- good enough to try. Does this proposal harm Social.Coop? Do people have experience with BBB or the member co-ops in Meet.Coop that suggests it is unsafe for us to meet with them?
|Results||Option||% of points||Voters|
|Undecided||0%||76||RB DU AW|
30 of 106 people have voted (28%)
Matt Noyes Sat 20 Jun 2020 10:41PM
Sorry Derek, I have been remiss. The next step is to review this thread and then make a proposal that addresses the various valid concerns and issues raised.
Yasuaki Kudo Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:40AM
This is probably not just for BBB but we need a lot of testing and also invest in monitoring tools in order to make it a commercial success, I think. Otherwise, it won't scale
Derek Caelin Tue 16 Jun 2020 5:32PM
Big Blue Button performed well at Open 2020. 60+ participants and the server seemed to run fine. Providing social.coop members with an ethical tool for meetings and supporting other online cooperatives seems like a good investment of the resources, especially if this gets cheaper over time.
Oli SB Mon 8 Jun 2020 9:28PM
Thanks for point out OPEN 2020 @Matt Noyes - We'd love to see people from Social.coop there.
The Open Co-op has chosen to host OPEN 2020 via Meet.coop using Big Blue Button - it will be a really good test of the technology... ;)
We're dedicated to collaborating with everyone in the 'new economy' space and are very impressed by the collaboration behind meet.coop and will be supporting them as much as we can both financially and with promotion.
We believe there are a lot of lessons for meet.coop to learn from Social.coop and other distributed communities and co-ops... so one of our sessions at OPEN 2020 will focus on this https://open.coop/events/a-new-platform-co-op-for-collaborative-tools/ to try and determine the best way to govern this emerging platform co-op... We would love input from anyone here.
We have another session looking at use cases for collaborative tools https://open.coop/events/the-tools-of-collaboration/ which aims to determine a suitable selection of open source tools for different kinds of collaborative groups, which we could all, collectively own...
There's other sessions on mutual credit and the Murmurations protocol which aims to encourage coordination within networks of commons building initiatives.... plus much more so it should be a fruitful two days!
We made the unwaged ticket just £3.50 to try and make it as inclusive as possible - grab yours here, we'd love to see you ;)
Matt Noyes Mon 8 Jun 2020 7:00PM
Hi all -- please check out the OpenCoop 2020 sessions this week: https://open.coop/2020/04/02/open-2020-reinvented-networked-commons-initiatives/ Should be a helpful set of discussions for us.
mike_hales Fri 31 Jul 2020 7:56AM
Now that Matrix has been relaunched as Element, its look and feel is good. Pitched to be able to compete with eg Telegram. No longer a mysterious thing that only geeks and code freaks use.
Danyl Strype Fri 26 Jun 2020 7:08AM
Mike and @Derek Caelin , IMHO Matrix seems to be the best liberating and federated replacement for Telegram. There are apps for all major OS (Riot is available on all of them in some form, but beware Electron).
Jabber with OMEMO is also an option. Conversations (Android) recently added voice/ video chat features, which I hear are compatible with some of the other Jabber clients, so there may be iOS and desktop options too.
Derek Caelin Tue 16 Jun 2020 5:33PM
I share your interest in moving off Telegram, but I think there is a desktop client for it.
mike_hales Thu 28 May 2020 8:54AM
I like the principles of Jami. But it feels a bit bleeding edge. I’m never sure what’s going to work, audio and video wise and I’m not sure finding people works well either. I’m not spending time currently on figuring out Jami, doesn’t feel ready, to me.
Am using Telegram mostly which I don’t want to but collaborators are there already. Would rather be using something that was laptop oriented not forever-scrolling smartphone. And where significant items can be held in’memory’.
Yasuaki Kudo Thu 28 May 2020 2:27AM
Yes I have, i think it's excellent. But I doubt it has any sophistication like automatically assigning "hub" devices (aka servers) to scale up to a large number of participants without exponentially increasing traffic and computation
Yasuaki Kudo Wed 27 May 2020 10:57PM
And also, I think there should be more investment into scalable peer-to-peer video conference software that can automatically optimize traffic (I am sure this is technically a tall order but hey - it would be an opportunity to employ brilliant computer scientists 😄)
mike_hales Thu 28 May 2020 8:49AM
I think I disagree - depends on what ‘norm’ means.
I don’t expect to ever find myself in a community where we can take for granted a willing, able and reliable sys admin and server. I will always want reliable full-featured platformed tools (either free as in free beer, or subscription, or preferably membership based under coop governance).
I also agree that self-hosting and fully distributed networks are a central principle. But I doubt that it will become a norm any time soon (except in communities of geeks) - unless it happens on smartphones, not conventional servers. Which (correct me) isn’t in the very near future?
So, walking on two legs?
Yasuaki Kudo Wed 27 May 2020 10:53PM
One thing I think we should do, regardless of service vendors such as meet.coop, is to go back to the spirit of free software and free internet and ensure anyone with a decent Internet access can self-host something like BBB (BigBlueButton, video conf software) The "Service-as-software-substitute" should not become the norm, I think
Yasuaki Kudo Wed 27 May 2020 10:35PM
Sorry for late response, I have been ridiculously busy recently.... I am both a member of social.coop and meet.coop I have also recently joined mayfirst.coop - I think an international coop hosting communication tools such as BBB and NextClound could become a bastion of platform cooperativism.
If we can incorporate a very strong governance model (I am a die hard anarchist BTW), ensuring workplace democracy, accountability to members, etc I think this really has a huge potential
Matt Noyes Wed 27 May 2020 6:21PM
Seems like we are at a point where we can formulate a proposal or two. One might be about how to do more research into the various options. Another might be to go with one or another of the alternatives discussed. Anything else? Any objection to moving to proposals?
Danyl Strype Sat 27 Jun 2020 4:35AM
> But if we joined the cooperative, we would be co-owners of the server running the tool
Exactly, yes :)
FWIW Unless Zoom publish source code for the encryption components and any other part of their server-side software that touches it, there is no way to independently audit it. So their E2EE claims simply can't be trusted.
I interpret the Zoom announcement as crisis management PR, reacting to the many known privacy breaches of Zoom users during lockdown use. I see it as cynical privacywashing, like Farcebook's pivot to privacy PR in the wake of the Russiagate hearings.
Derek Caelin Fri 26 Jun 2020 8:11PM
Zoom now plans to allow end-to-end encryption for its free users. Users will need to use a phone number to register.
It's true that BBB does not offer end-to-end encryption, meaning that we would be "middleable". But if we joined the cooperative, we would be co-owners of the server running the tool. So, we would be the middle. At least, part of a group of partners who would have access to the service.
Danyl Strype Fri 26 Jun 2020 5:07AM
Another bit of the VOICE report by Stéphane seems relevant here:
... BBB encrypts between user and server, but does not do end-to-end encryption – just like Zoom (but at least, it doesn't claim it uses it) ... it matters to trust whoever is hosting the BBB instance in use.
Without E2EE, if you're not the customer, of a trustworthy vendor, chances are your data is the product.
mike_hales Sun 24 May 2020 8:50AM
There is a report here of a trial of BBB in NZ, by @Danyl Strype
Overall, an excellent experience with this tool. Very positively surprised!
Nick Sellen Thu 28 May 2020 10:51AM
In general, I'd like to know how we can move from "we can't possibly add any new tools" to "we want to add more tools, what will it take for us to get there?"
@Nathan Schneider maybe https://www.loomio.org/d/WwRkLCro/bridging-tech-and-community-working-groups can help...
Nick Sellen Tue 26 May 2020 1:40PM
@Nathan Schneider my suggestion for moving forward was this thread - it didn't get a lot of engagement (including from me), maybe people don't like theory/long text (edit: I wrote some more replies in there maybe it still has legs!).
For me personally, I still have little clear idea what social.coop actually is. I joined in an emergency to stop it going offline, and I use it from time to time, and I ended up the only active tech person with server/admin access, but beyond that, no idea!
Some of the directions discussed here using "managed platforms" (e.g. cloudron), could work very well with different ideas of what is is, but that direction doesn't particularly interest me, which is fine, but I'm feeling a bit uneasy that the current tech plan will become irrelevant, and I don't want to waste my time (there is no point clearing the garden of weeds if it's going to be paved over...).
Jonathan Bean Sun 24 May 2020 3:54PM
Cloudron does seem like a great option, it seems to offer more and better apps than the alternative of sandstorm.io https://alternativeto.net/software/sandstorm-io/ Which Fair Apps includes in its subscription.
I see now, so the unique value proposition of meet.coop is that it actually works. I remember having many problems with other open-source like jitsi https://meet.jit.si/
So it makes the most sense to go use meet.coop as our video chat provider, along with Cloudron to manage our mastodon instance and be able to offer more services to our members. We might then have an appealing enough deal to attract millions of member users. But it all has to work.
I think we can use cloudron to install and manage mastodon and then a Wordpress site, and then if it does not cost too much to self-host we can experiment with having a discourse instance, and other social apps and project management apps.
Cloudron makes it easy to self host all our services with a single integrated sign in, and we can easily install these as you would from any apple or android app store. They are dedicated to making it easy for us. https://cloudron.io/about.html
Thanks @Josef Davies-Coates for the information.
And I agree with @Nathan Schneider, let's move on to talking about how we will manifest our mutually desired requirements. Like Henry Ford said something like: "If you believe you can or believe you can't, you are probably right!" https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/203714.Henry_Ford
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”
― Buckminster Fuller
Nathan Schneider Sun 24 May 2020 4:04AM
I've been using Cloudron at MEDLab, and I agree it is a major step forward for bringing on these tools. Cloudron supports Mastodon, too. But it's not without need for some maintenance.
In general, I'd like to know how we can move from "we can't possibly add any new tools" to "we want to add more tools, what will it take for us to get there?"
Leo Sammallahti Sun 24 May 2020 3:47AM
Have to say makes me happy that we are in a fortunate situation where there are lot of different platform cooperatives to choose from :).
Josef Davies-Coates Sun 24 May 2020 3:13AM
Collective Tools and Fair Apps are both cool projects.
But their video meeting offerings simply do not compare with this awesome plan for meet.coop
Neither of them (nor any similar efforts) are focussed on properly solving the issues with open source video meetings in the way meet.coop are proposing (i.e. having a bunch of powerful load balanced servers across the globe dedicated to providing this service - which afaict is the only way to make video meetings just work).
At best these existing offering are akin to what meet.coop describe as their Alpha stage, see e.g. https://wiki.meet.coop/wiki/Roadmap (where they literally describe Collective Tools' BBB offering as a merely a "proof of concept")
Also, if we do want to have a load of different apps with single sign-on I'd suggest we simply subscribe to Cloudron ($15+VAT/mo if paid yearly, otherwise $30+VAT/mo) and install it on a VPS.
I've been using it since 10 January this year and it's totally awesome. It makes all these open source web apps a few clicks away (note Mastodon is one of the apps too), nearly all of which have LDAP power single sign-on out of the box. Plus a full email server.
If you want to have a play, use my referral code to get your first month free: 5adcafc820c53c3d
Zee Spencer Sat 23 May 2020 11:31PM
Concur, this looks like a much more mature place to start exploring and it's model seems to fit much better with the social.coop "casual participant" model.
Jonathan Bean Sat 23 May 2020 8:50PM
I recently discovered https://fairapps.net/home
I see they offer organizational plans that include many more apps than just the blue button meeting app. https://fairteaching.net/b
I like how it is all integrated with a single sign in.
It includes everything you can think of for collaboration and much more.
It is a democratically structured cooperative society organization. https://www.fairkom.eu/en/node/152
So it seems to be some sort of cooperative.
I would like to support startup cooperatives, but what is their unique selling proposition, are they offering a better service that does not exist in similar forms already. The Fair Apps seems to be much more mature and likely to offer a better service for our members and seem to have cooperative values as well.
I think we should support cooperatives and offer more perks for our members, but we should choose the right coop partners that will help us offer the greatest services to our members.
Matt Noyes Sat 23 May 2020 1:36AM
@Ben Harris-Roxas What do you think about the question of expense, in light of the various responses?
Josef Davies-Coates Fri 22 May 2020 10:06PM
Fully support this. Co-ops cooperating with co-ops and systematically pooling resources is the (bizarrely often overlooked) Killer App of co-ops.
Sean Svette Fri 22 May 2020 6:56PM
👍 I'm all on board to use this for personal purposes! I have dozens of video conference calls per week and would love to support this platform through social.coop
Zee Spencer Fri 22 May 2020 6:09PM
Hey co-conspirators! I am generally in favor of more services for the social.coop folks! I'm not entirely sure if video-chat is something that I would use if it were provided via social.coop; mostly because I'm already comfortable managing my own infrastructure and am in the process of converting that infrastructure into a hybrid worker/consumer owned cooperative, Convene.
It's not "baked" yet, but we use it for our coop and it costs us about $7/mo for an instance that is always on and plays well with ~8 people at a time. It's built on top of Jitsi, which is rock-solid for small groups; and seems to have a much nicer API for folks who want to build custom facilitation tools on top of it. That said, it does not appear to scale particularly well, and the audio/video quality isn't remotely as nice as Zooms.
Matt Noyes Tue 26 May 2020 2:51AM
I copied the options to an etherpad doc, just because...:-) https://pad.disroot.org/p/Social.Coop_Video_Call_Options
Leo Sammallahti Sun 24 May 2020 6:34PM
Heres the link to the Google doc. What do people think about having a poll on which option to choose, with meet.coop as one of the options? We should expand on pros and cons of each option before putting it for a vote.
Leo Sammallahti Sat 23 May 2020 3:04AM
If I've understood correctly most members are organisations. I do not know about members having access to all their tools but will ask tomorrow. I will also make a google doc document tomorrow detailing different options we have - meet.coop, collective.tools, etc. It might help us make a decision.
Matt Noyes Sat 23 May 2020 2:37AM
Do they accept organizations as members? Would all our members then have access to the tools we opt for?
Leo Sammallahti Sat 23 May 2020 2:04AM
Collective Tools coop provides Jitsi webcam meetings alongside a bunch of other project organising tools like file sharing and cloud storage iirc. It costs 20$/month, and Social Coop would become a member of Collective Tools.
Matt Noyes Sat 23 May 2020 1:32AM
Another aspect of this is the file sharing/cloud storage entailed by making recordings and then wanting to make them available to others.
Leo Sammallahti Fri 22 May 2020 5:14PM
Perhaps one area of consideration would be to donate to meet.coop, and registering a free account? Really like the idea of social.coop providing more services to its members in addition to Mastodon instance.
Matt Noyes Fri 22 May 2020 4:53PM
Copying this toot from Wouter Tebbens @wouter:
"We're currently pooling resources to get a first BBB server ready on June 1st. Our idea is that Meet.coop members have priority and maybe more session recording capacity but everyone will be able to register a free account with a basic personal conference room.
From June till September we pool more resources for the next phase and have nodes in various continents.
Aim to have production service ready for Jan 2021. So we need your support now to contract the most powerful server that we can get for June 1st! See wiki.meet.coop"
Danyl Strype Fri 26 Jun 2020 5:43AM
Jami might be OK as an on-the-fly voice/ video chat room for the server team, but it needs a UX makeover before I'd try it with non-geeks. Also, there's gotchas, like whoever starts the room is hosting it (ProTip; whoever has the best PC and bandwidth needs to start it), which limit how many users it can support in one room.
Matt Noyes Fri 22 May 2020 4:51PM
So here's a question: what about tools like Jitsi or the distributed Jami (still glitchy but deserving support)? Should we put resources into them? Should we host a Jitsi instance? Or go in on hosting with others? Or pay/donate for Jitsi hosting by an existing project like Disroot, Framasoft, MayFirst? I like the Meet.Coop idea, but we should be aware of alternatives.
Jonathan Bean Fri 22 May 2020 4:15PM
I do like the idea of offering more perks to the social.coop membership. This is similar to how scribd.com has perks like giving members access to curiosity stream and pandora radio, which I am listening to right now included in my $9 / month membership. This really does help keep me as a paying member. Scribd offers e-book and audiobook streaming services, along with magazine streaming as well as a library of user-submitted materials. These services are enough but the added perks really keep me coming back.
Offering access to our mastodon services is probably enough for most people but the added perks like video conferencing and the opportunity to support other cooperative solutions, will be a more persuasive deal for our members.
I think we can structure a deal that is fair for everyone, like I see a deal where we pay and get credits like they are used on resonate.is and we can give hours per person and per hour sort of credits. Included in your social.coop membership is 20 free credits, which gives you 20 hours per month of conferencing for meetings of 12 or fewer people and bigger meetings use more credits.
This is also similar to how library multi-media streaming hoopla.com services work, where the commons or the local government pays hoopla per item borrowed for its patrons, and each patron gets a limited amount of borrows each month. But the patrons get the books, music, movies, and comics for free.
I would think we would need to do some surveys to determine how many people would appreciate the conferencing services and how much the demand to use them would be. It would also be good to have some market research showing how persuasive this deal is for future social.coop members to choose to join us.
I see S.C (Social.Coop) offering a suite of services for its members that all aim to connect people to each other. Our unique proposition would be that we connect people to each other and to the communities they care about as opposed to something like Facebook that is designed to keep you hooked and viewing advertisements.
I think to be more successful, S.C must expand its service offerings to the point that it is the obvious choice for social networking and social cooperation. We really also need to work on our branding and clarify our identity to attract more members. Offering video conferencing is a must, and if you haven't noticed yet, Facebook is now offering a new feature of virtual meeting rooms for video chatting with friends. So we really do need to offer something that makes Facebook obsolete and irrelevant because our services offer a much more social and enjoyable experience.
I vote in favor of offering more and better services to help member users connect and to collaborate more with other cooperatives.
Oli SB Fri 22 May 2020 9:13AM
I votes YES, absolutely. What the folks at meet.coop are doing is EXACTLY what we should be doing more of i.e. pooling skills and sharing server costs so we can actually own our own tools! The cost is not high at all - it's what you need to pay to host and use your own OS tools... and, as a co-op, they need support from the co-op community... and any surpluses will be re-invested in the co-op or shared among members... so what's not to like!?!?!
Nick Sellen Sat 23 May 2020 8:53AM
oh, and one more point:
d) it's something we can actually do more-or-less now. when people are talking about social.coop offering more services, it feels like as users they want access to more services, but I rarely here anything about how they quite expect that to happen (and as the main tech person right now that would be important! ... I don't want to have that discussion right here, right now but just flagging it because other services were mentioned in this thread ... I do want to have that discussion, and was thinking to suggest a shared general call to get to know each other a bit more and start to progress these topics).
Matt Noyes Fri 22 May 2020 4:48PM
Right? Principle 6: Intercooperation. One role SC can play is to help cohere and strengthen the existing network of online cooperatives.
Nick Sellen Fri 22 May 2020 8:16AM
I like it on the basis that:
a) social.coop has money available, and/or skills to contribute (I could/might consider getting involved on the tech level too, as I imagine webarch is involved there and I know the people)
b) if, in general, the co-op movement is to work, we need to support the wider network, not just think about our own specific interest, so even if it's "too expensive" (if it were considered as a simple transactional service) what is good for the co-op network will be good for us in one way or another
c) we have a bunch of social.coop uses, and I'm sure there will be some way to also use it for other purposes by the members (even if as lower priority, or when it's not being used for something, or whatever)
Nathan Schneider Fri 22 May 2020 3:03AM
I tend to think we should go in together or not at all, rather than creating pay-to-play features of Social.coop membership. To me the big question is what benefit we receive from an organizational membership—the extent to which meet.coop would allow social.coop members to use the service for their own purposes.
Matt Noyes Fri 22 May 2020 2:01AM
Interesting -- so whoever wanted could pitch in to pay for an organizational membership that would then be available for all members to use?
emi do Thu 21 May 2020 11:08PM
I would love for us to join!! What if those who were interested in using it for personal purposes could pitch in for an account through social.coop? If there were 10 of us, that would amount to less than 5 eu/month
Nathan Schneider Fri 22 May 2020 3:05AM
By what standard? We currently have 6k GBP on hand. If Social.coop members would find this membership valuable, we could in principle afford it.
Matt Noyes Thu 21 May 2020 5:22PM
I think our average of meetings is closer to 3/month (tech working group, community working group, reading group, DisCo game group). But maybe that is still not enough to justify the expense?
If members could use it for their own purposes -- maybe limited to non-commercial uses -- would it be worth doing?
Leo Sammallahti Thu 21 May 2020 5:12PM
I love the idea of meet.coop but think the price during the first year is bit too high for Social Coop. Social Coop does not use online meetings that much (I presume maybe once a month), so the price would be around 40$ per meeting. Would wait until the next year when the subscription price comes down and then join.
Nathan Schneider Wed 3 Mar 2021 4:02PM
It is there in the "Recurring Contributions" section: https://opencollective.com/socialcoop
Derek Caelin Tue 2 Mar 2021 8:55PM
Would you share the signup link, please?
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Matt Noyes Tue 2 Mar 2021 8:20PM
Seems like I failed to respond to @Bob Haugen -- Social.Coop pays about 90GBP a month for a multi-user account, so it would be about 1000GBP/yr. An easy burden for us to bear collectively. Not sure why it does not show up as an expense in Open Collective? @Nathan Schneider ?
Bob Haugen Sun 28 Feb 2021 3:10PM
I signed up using the form from the link in yesterday's meeting and did my first meeting this morning.
Very smooth. The question came up, though, how much is social.coop paying for meet.coop (said $500-$1000 somewhere if I read and remembered correctly). The signup form suggest upping your existing contribution, which I did, but I have no idea if the member contributions are covering the cost, or even what the cost actually is. 500-1000 is a big range. And I'm happy to bump my contribution again.
Derek Caelin Tue 16 Jun 2020 6:37PM
As it is, there's no paywall to use the tool, but it looks like membership is facilitated through the starter orgs?
Nathan Schneider Thu 21 May 2020 5:05PM
Great question. I'd assume the former. That would be the only way, I think, this would be worth the money.
Matt Noyes Thu 21 May 2020 5:00PM
Question: if we joined as a member organization, does that mean that any of our members could use the software at no additional expense? For their own purposes? Or just for Social.Coop meetings, events, etc.?
Matt Noyes Thu 21 May 2020 4:58PM
Following the practice of our DisCO friends, I volunteer to facilitate this thread. ;-)
Django · Tue 20 Dec 2022 8:19PM
Just found the meet.coop registration form in our wiki under Tutorials.