Discussion: Support the Anti-Meta Fedi Pact
For some time, there have been rumors that Meta (Facebook) has plans to impose itself on the Fediverse. These rumors have recently been confirmed, with the news that Meta is developing a clone of Mastodon, referred to as "Project 92", "Barcelona", or "Threads", and that it has had a meeting with the administrators of several large Mastodon instances, possibly including Eugen Rochko, while silencing them with a non-disclosure agreement.
Meta is an oligopoly that has aggressively sought to control social media, through absorption of other social media companies, and through policies of "embrace, extend, and extinguish", as with the RSS and XMPP protocols. Meta, through Facebook, is infamous for condoning the spread of far right ideology and of dangerous misinformation.
There have been calls for pre-emptively blocking Meta's project. In particular, @vantablack@beach.city, administrator of a small Mastodon instance, beach.city, has proposed the Anti-Meta Fedi Pact.
I see our best hope in collective resistance.
Therefore, I would like us to discuss whether we should support this move, and if so, how best to do so. As a starting point for discussion, I suggest the following:
Social.Coop commits to blocking any Fediverse instances that Meta creates.
We, as a body, sign the Anti-Meta Fedi Pact.
We follow up by collectively drafting and issuing a public statement.
(As I have not been active in Social.Coop discussions, I hope that the way I am presenting this is appropriate, and I welcome constructive criticism.)
@Nic There's also the statement that @Eduardo Mercovich has drafted for us to collaborate on. And the notion of calling for an Assembly. I'm wondering how group all these things.
@Brian Vaughan That is a much more constructive framing from Eduardo, tho my guess is it could also trigger a long discussion. Perhaps consensus is easier to find/check on an action (ie de-federate) than a statement?
If there's community consensus for defederating then that's also a clear expression of the need for a statement or policy (which obvs can be drafted in parallel)? But it avoids letting the syntax getting in the way of the logic… (ie people saying I want to do this, but that sentence is problematic to me for this or that reason)
Thanks @Brian Vaughan /\
I'd say, let's parallelize. ;-)
Okay, so do we want three new threads, or four?
That would be one formal vote on endorsing the Anti-Meta Fedi Pact, and one formal vote on not federating with Meta. Then a thread for drafting a public statement. Would we want a fourth thread on calling for an Assembly of Instances, or would that be part of the purpose of the public statement, and therefore part of that discussion?
@Brian Vaughan
If we're moving forward with the Asssembly of instances idea, I think it needs to be four threads, but I think that that one and the public statement thread belong on a longer time horizon than the Pact and federate or not federate thread.
As a reminder, here's our wiki on how to make a proposal.
Here's what I'm thinking we should do next, through Loomio:
- A formal vote on the policy with regards to actions to Meta sites on the Fediverse. I think it would make most sense to use a ranked choice vote, with four options: Pre-emptively block any such site that Meta may create; block any Meta site unless it meets certain conditions; block any Meta site if it meets certain conditions; do not commit to any special actions with regards to Meta sites on the Fediverse.
- A formal vote on the proposal to endorse the Anti-Meta Fedi Pact. I think that running this vote would have to be conditional on the outcome to the prior vote; we obviously shouldn't promise to pre-emptively block Meta if we have decided against doing that. Also I think we should communicate that whoever is signing, is signing on behalf of Social.Coop.
- Create a discussion thread for collaboratively drafting the statement @edumerco started. The preceding votes would influence the content of that statement, I think, particularly if we're specifying conditional actions.
- Create a discussion thread for the possibility of calling for an Assembly of Instances, possibly using the Pact or the statement as a starting point.
Also, on #1, I'm not sure what would be the best way to frame it, procedurally, about the positive or negative conditions. I was imagining referring the question of defining the conditions to some sort of committee, based on what people might say in discussion, or maybe referring it to some existing working group. Anyone have any thoughts?
@Brian Vaughan
Unfortunately, I don't have any specific thoughts on process. I hope that some people familiar with past decision-making can chime in here...
I think it's definitely time to put up a proposal for 1 in Loomio and really like the idea of a ranked choice vote, with the choices that were listed. I think staging the decisions will be good for not giving members too much to digest at once? Thanks @Brian Vaughan for continuing to advance this discussion -- do you want to write it up?!
@Matt Noyes @emi do @Mica Fisher @Sam Whited @Flancian as CWG Ops do you think this is the right approach to start with a proposal for 1 listed above? It seems like the issue of defederation is one that CWG has had to discuss before, and that perhaps you have decision making power for already?
@edsummers , thanks for tagging people to discuss process.
It's become urgent. Meta announced today, July 4, that threads.net will launch on July 6. Wikipedia has links to a few articles about the announcement.
Threads (app)
I definitely want to hear advice about process, but I think we should get the formal vote started today. The decision would probably be reached after threads.net has gone live.
@Ed Summers The CWG Ops Team has defederated from instances, based on reports from users, or on tips from other admins. But, this seems to me like a good thing to decide collectively. This discussion is a great example of members starting a discussion and self-organizing. We recently approved the proposal to create an organizing circle, which might be helpful for coordinating action once decisions like this are made by the members. https://www.loomio.com/p/OI8kEjVz/social-coop-organizing-circle-proposal
I was preparing a poll, a ranked choice vote, on options for Social.Coop's response to Meta. However, if I'm understanding the bylaws correctly, it is required to include an option to block a proposal, to indicate a belief that a proposal violates our principles, and a block is weighted more heavily than other votes. I don't see a way to include that as an option in a ranked choice vote, so I don't know how to handle this, procedurally.
@Brian Vaughan I've never noticed that the by-laws are so prescriptive about the type of poll. I guess it's best to follow the by-laws as best you can, and keep the poll simple and easier to interpret? When looking over past polls I didn't see any with a block option, but maybe I didn't look at enough of them.
@edsummers Maybe the best option then is to say that if anyone wants to block, they should say "block" as a comment, and we'll calculate the results manually if that happens.
Shall we defederate from Meta's threads.net?
ranked choice by Brian Vaughan Closed Tue 11 Jul 2023 7:00AM
Please read closely, and review my reasoning. This has been a contentious issue, and the validity of the vote itself has been a subject of considerable contention. I take full responsibility for any failure to handle the process appropriately.
This was a ranked choice vote on these four options:
Option 1: We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net.
Option 2: We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating.
Option 3: We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net.
Option 4: We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net.
By the original count on Loomio: Option 2 received the most points, 349; followed by Option 1, 327; Option 3, 314; Option 4, 210.
However, we had one Block vote. As I had originally stated, if this occurred, it would require a manual recalculation of the vote. I had originally assumed, based on a misreading of the Bylaws, that a Block vote was essentially a heavily weighted Disagree vote, and I thought that it should be handled by treating any Block vote as effectively nine votes for Option 4, which is essentially the null option. However, on reviewing the Bylaws, it actually states, "Proposals with Block require at least 9 times more Agree votes than Disagree and Block votes in order to pass." So my reasoning is that a multiplier of nine would be applied to the point total for Option 4.
After taking this into account (and modifying one vote, according to a comment that complained of a glitch with registering a vote on a mobile device), the results are:
Option 4, 1890 points
Option 2, 349 points
Option 1, 326 points
Option 3, 315 points.
This mean a selection of Option 4, which effectively means taking no special action with regards to threads.net.
This is a link to a spreadsheet. The first tab is data as exported from Loomio, the second tab is the calculation of the point totals, which matches the results reported by Loomio. The third tab is the modified result as I have described; the one modified vote is highlighted.
https://cryptpad.fr/sheet/#/2/sheet/view/Tw72ShOmExVE88jWJNmJxchbHM3Z4UniCpvs+sNq8eo/
This is the first formal proposal, following from the discussion in Discussion: Support the Anti-Meta Fedi Pact. Depending upon the outcome of this vote, there will probably be further related proposals. There has been a great deal of discussion in that thread, of Meta and the basis for our concern. The discussion showed that there is a general concern with Meta, with its history and its intentions for social media, and a range of views on how to respond to its project, but a consensus that we should respond in some way.
On July 4, it was announced that Meta's project, threads.net, will launch on July 6. This makes it considerably more urgent that we decide our course of action.
- Meta’s ‘Twitter Killer’ App Is Coming
- Threads, Meta’s Twitter clone, starts launch countdown, plus a few details on how it works
Significantly, threads.net will not be launched in the EU at this time, as it likely violates EU data privacy laws.
Here are four possible responses by Social.Coop, to be chosen by ranked choice voting. If you wish to block, as described in the Bylaws, please start your comment with "Block"; in that case, we will need to calculate the results manually.
Results
| Results | Option | Rank | % of points | Points | Mean | Voters | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | 1 | 29 | 349 | 3 | 120 | |||
| We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | 2 | 27 | 327 | 3 | 120 | |||
| We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | 3 | 26 | 314 | 3 | 120 | |||
| We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | 4 | 18 | 210 | 2 | 120 | |||
| Not voted | 0 | 0 | 247 |
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I simply don't want Facebook to have access to my server's social graph
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I don't trust facebook. I fully expect it to be defederated. I also do believe this could result in many of my friends being in the fediverse. I want that. Threads can be a gateway drug, but we need to make sure there is nothing else going on (ie: Immediately review privacy policy (what is collected about users of other instances), close monitoring of actions, watching movements of mastodon developers). I guess I'd weight my choices 1 & 2 as the same. I need more info from facebook.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
AFAIK, threads is not capable of federating with other Fediverse services because it does not currently fully implement the ActivityPub protocol. We still have time to decide what we want to do and I still advocate for a collective 'Terms of Federation'.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
My reasons and proposal were explained at large in the preceding discussion. I believe that the best option is to draft a basic agreement of basic values that -based on it's previous history- we need Fb/Mt to sign before federating with it.
The proposal draft is in https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/edit/5xxQZvxvjfAP2eQTYenLuWOZ/
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I think starting cautiously is the way to go here.
I would also like to hear some ideas around silencing Threads and maybe setting up LIMITED_FEDERATION_MODE https://docs.joinmastodon.org/admin/config/#federation with them.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
As much as I do not believe Meta has the best intentions, on principle I think it's important to only defederate if they break certain rules to which we'd also defed from any other instance. I support the creation of a committee to draft a list of conditions that could initiate defederation. It was inevitable that if the fediverse would succeed that eventually corporate interests would start poking around. It's important our response isn't just reactive, but covers all who'd do the same as Meta.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I believe Facebook's threads.net is not like other instances and should be defederated by default. We should also use this opportunity to clarify baseline requirements for social.coop to federate with other instances in general
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
"Wait and see" is an anachronism. You can't claw back compromised privacy. Meta and FB, along with all the enshittification cults, have consistently shown themselves NOT to be trustworthy. There have been many instances of nefarious practices and negative outcomes. I honestly don't understand the trolling that's been going on ^^ up there but: to my mind, we don't have to make any assumptions. They've told us who they are. Never federate.
| 1 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. |
Knee-jerk corps-are-badism. Give people the freedom to choose their clients. It would be nice to use the same platform that my parents use.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
Meta has a proven history of unethical behaviour, up to and including promoting genocide. Pretty sure we don't need them.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
While decentralization is supposed to be resilient, when one sups with the Devil one should use a long spoon, so, on reflection, I think it best to de-federate Meta and others like it. Ultimately, I don't think we'll be missing anything, and we will continue to be a safe haven should any threadizens what to abandon ship and join us.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
If I wanted Facebook to have even more access to my data I'd use their platform. It's very simple to me
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
Assume it is a threat and create a list of conditions where we can actively affirm that it is not a threat. (It will probably remain a threat.)
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 4 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. |
If threads.net becomes a way that my friends use the Fediverse, which I think is likely, I would probably leave social.coop if I couldn’t interact with them. I would be pretty sad about that—I’ve been here since 2017!
Separately, while I share the skepticism of Meta, I find something distasteful about excluding Meta’s users, who are numerous and imo more diverse than the Fediverse currently.
I am less afraid of EEE than others are. I think we’re quite resilient against it.
@Harris nothing is stopping any `social.coop user from signing up for a threads.net account if they want to participate there
@Calix Sure, but if that's the solution we offer people who would like to connect with their friends and family, I think that makes migration away from the indie Mastodon servers more likely, not less? I only have bandwidth for so much social media. Like that's certainly a solution but it seems like it encourages the problem we're ostensibly trying to prevent.
@Harris this was the situation so far already – that if people's friends and family were on Facebook but not Mastodon, then Mastodon users needed to make a choice whether to have an account on both, or to pick one – and still is the situation now until Meta switches on federation. Some people probably left the fediverse to go to Blue Sky, some might leave for Threads (although I doubt there's much overlap between the people that Mastodon and Threads appeal to), which is definitely sad, but compromising what makes the fediverse good in the first place to try and prevent that seems like exactly playing into the first step of Embrace / Extend / Extinguish.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. |
As much as I dislike Meta, I would suggest that defederating simply because of who is running the server and not because of specific principles does not set a good precedent.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
It seems safest to be pre-emptive. We could still create the conditions that could potentially allow federation in the future.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I think that Mastodon and the corporate internet should stay separate, and in particular, social.coop, which is one of the few instances that is democratically run, should stay separate from the corporate internet. Inclusion of threads.net content on our timelines would shift the expectations of our users in ways that make future defederation harder. We should protect our identity as democratic and not corporate.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
Facebook is a known, repeat abuser of trust and credulity. The burden of proof is on them.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I support starting from preemptive block as well as drafting conditions that any large instance needs to meet for federation. I would draft those conditions to specifically apply to already-large networks merging with fedi, but would be fine if they also were applied to all large instances.
![Joshua Neds-Fox [@jnonfiction@social.coop]](https://www.loomio.com/rails/active_storage/representations/redirect/eyJfcmFpbHMiOnsibWVzc2FnZSI6IkJBaHBBeUU0RUE9PSIsImV4cCI6bnVsbCwicHVyIjoiYmxvYl9pZCJ9fQ==--57be35e10986ee80485a26b7a648951dcea336e1/eyJfcmFpbHMiOnsibWVzc2FnZSI6IkJBaDdDRG9MWm05eWJXRjBTU0lJYW5CbkJqb0dSVlE2RkhKbGMybDZaVjkwYjE5c2FXMXBkRnNIYVFHQWFRR0FPZ3B6WVhabGNuc0hPZ3h4ZFdGc2FYUjVhVlU2Q25OMGNtbHdWQT09IiwiZXhwIjpudWxsLCJwdXIiOiJ2YXJpYXRpb24ifX0=--bee53b50eefebbfaf3427852775dd64daaceca76/jnf.bw.avatar.jpg){kind=avatar}
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
Defensive posture against corporate enclosure.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I have an account on FB for two reasons: to stay in touch with a number of people with whom I have history, and to participate in local organizing conversations/networks. It would be great to see people move to the fediverse, and I regularly promote that. At the same time, it is clear to me that Meta is anathema to the values and principles that drew me here and poses a threat to this wide and plural arena for experimentation and self-organization.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 4 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. |
I suspect the halo effect may work in Mastodon’s favor at least as well as it could the other way around, and so think we should err on the side of cautiously federating.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 4 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. |
I don’t trust Meta at all, and I think it is fair to put it on warning, but also recognize that a likely very large number of perfectly normal people, who find Mastodon a challenge or who have never heard of it will use other networks we don’t care for to communicate with the world. A federated system is supposed to facilitate communication and tools to restrict it should, whenever possible, be used with great care and not preemptively.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
While the situation might be clear now (not launching in the EU,...), following in the wake of threads will probably be many VC-funded startups that are not as visibly negative. Having a set of rules that define what we defederate seems important to me.
| 1 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 4 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. |
I think large platforms adopting open protocols is a win. Would be open to setting a list of conditions under which we defederate, but would like to see this first and don't think we should block them ex ante.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
The fact that they're not launching in the EU at all is basically an admission of guilt from their side. So defederate immediately.
I also see no reason to waste anyone's time and effort on creating a working group right now. Maybe if Meta decides to meet the minimum standards of EU privacy law, we can set up a working group to look into this again, but right now I'd defederate no questions asked.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 4 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. |
I am struggling a little with the combined statements of 'assumption' and 'action'. I don't necessarily buy all the assumptions, so am ranking based on the actions alone. I feel a 'watching brief' is the right approach in this case.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. |
Proactice defederation with conditions avoids user data being exchanged with Meta prior to being clear on the conditions that members of social.coop want to see in place. It appears that fediverse participation of threads may not be a launch feature, and this should allow time for criteria. Any criteria developed should be general enough to apply across large instances entering fediverse, not only Meta.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I think this poll will ultimately dilute and contradict the previous poll where a clear majority supported defederation and signing the pact.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I think it's good Meta are exploring an open tech that offers interoperability and portability. I (reluctantly, occasionally) use their products to msg some family members. That said, as well as the reasons many have outlined, the simple scale difference of a 3bn Daily-Active-User publicly-traded monopoly vs a 2m DAU mostly non-profit federation makes me think we can't exercise too much caution here. But we could review again after their Activity Pub features are running? Thanks for doing this.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
Also, have the "Nothing below this line" option, so that anything set below there by the people voting gets an automatic and emphatic "No".
This is based on the similar voting system used by London Hackspace.
Thanks for continuing this process @Brian Vaughan and recognising the range of views.
Could it be helpful to separate the essence of the Pact's proposal 'to not federate with Meta for now', from the second, more political decision of signing the Pact as a collective?
The Pact is worded as a confrontation with Meta, who it says "must be fought back against at every possible opportunity". There may be people here who don't feel like they want that fight, but who also don't want to federate with them, just for the simple maths of a 3 billion daily-active-user social network group federating with a 1 million daily-active-user social network group, feeling daunting. I'm trying to think of analogies where a 3000:1 ratio doesn't leave the smaller of the parties completely diminished, if not destroyed. Homeopathy?!
So, could we have two proposals to vote on? 'Sign the pact', and 'don't federate with Meta yet'?