Discussion: Support the Anti-Meta Fedi Pact
For some time, there have been rumors that Meta (Facebook) has plans to impose itself on the Fediverse. These rumors have recently been confirmed, with the news that Meta is developing a clone of Mastodon, referred to as "Project 92", "Barcelona", or "Threads", and that it has had a meeting with the administrators of several large Mastodon instances, possibly including Eugen Rochko, while silencing them with a non-disclosure agreement.
Meta is an oligopoly that has aggressively sought to control social media, through absorption of other social media companies, and through policies of "embrace, extend, and extinguish", as with the RSS and XMPP protocols. Meta, through Facebook, is infamous for condoning the spread of far right ideology and of dangerous misinformation.
There have been calls for pre-emptively blocking Meta's project. In particular, @vantablack@beach.city, administrator of a small Mastodon instance, beach.city, has proposed the Anti-Meta Fedi Pact.
I see our best hope in collective resistance.
Therefore, I would like us to discuss whether we should support this move, and if so, how best to do so. As a starting point for discussion, I suggest the following:
Social.Coop commits to blocking any Fediverse instances that Meta creates.
We, as a body, sign the Anti-Meta Fedi Pact.
We follow up by collectively drafting and issuing a public statement.
(As I have not been active in Social.Coop discussions, I hope that the way I am presenting this is appropriate, and I welcome constructive criticism.)
@Brian Vaughan
The main page about the LHS Trustee elections can be found here: https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Organisation/Trustees_Election
They link to a full description of the voting algorithm here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting_single_transferable_votes#Meek
When you vote the preferences are ranked according to what each voter wants, and weighted according to the ordering, a la secondary-preference voting.
We found that including all of the options without a "Nothing below this line" option, meant that people would find their votes being counted towards options that they did not want.
Including a "Nothing below this line" means that the secondary preferences for the undesired options do not get counted.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 4 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. |
I don't use any Meta products (including WhatsApp) and so usually take a hard line on this kind of stuff. But if the Fediverse is to be truly inclusive, it has to include people and organisations we don't like / agree with. I wouldn't support a browser that stopped me from accessing sites that other people thought were harmful, for example.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I have seen abundant evidence that Meta has been a bad actor in designing and deploying social media from its beginning. I have friends and colleagues who use Meta services like Facebook, Instagram and WhatsApp. Being able to communicate with them on social.coop would be awesome. But I am very concerned about the infrastructural effects that a Meta fediverse deployment will have on shaping discourse, repurposing content, and bending the ActivityPub standard to their needs.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I'm the weirdo in my social circle who abstains from all FB products - I don't miss them and am not in any rush to receive that content. So I think we can probably be patient before federating. Defining our conditions before federating seems like a sensible place to start.
| 1 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 4 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. |
“Scraping my data” is not a real concern, as (a) Meta can do this anyway, and (b) your social.coop ID is not tied to any other identity unless you make that connection explicit.
Techno-political zealotry (“zuck bad”) is not reason enough to prevent users from being able to follow their friends and family.
“Limit” versus “Suspend” should be adequate to deal with most of the real concerns.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
Let's decide and revisit the decision in a year.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 4 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. |
I strongly dislike Facebook, but most of the problems identified here (like “having access to the social graph”) are inherent to the nature of public social tools. So I’ve voted for federate-and-analyze, essentially.
I would particularly not over-focus on the EU problem, since I’m roughly 1,000% certain that no EU-based instance (not just Meta) that federates with a US-based instance is in GDPR compliance—it’s arguably impossible for non-EU volunteer-based orgs to comply with GDPR.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I personally do not want any contact in any direction with any meta product with my mastodon/fediverse account, because I have a physical reaction to this stuff. It makes me sick. So I need good reasons to exceptionally seek the Zuckerberg empire for a small dose. I have other accounts for that purpose I almost never use.
| 1 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. |
I only support the last, "don't make assumptions" option at this time.
Connecting with the many friends and family who are currently on Meta would be a huge boon to our relationships, social.coop and the fediverse in general. My hope is to onboard as many of them as possible onto Mastodon. I'm optimistic that with the "network effect" solved, many will find the ad-free, algorithm-free experience refreshing and switch. Pre-emptive defederation prevents us from even trying that.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. |
SUCH A BIASED POLL! Two of the Four are basically GTFO. This poll would have been much better if it had two options: Leave-now or Wait-a-bit-then-decide
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 4 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. |
I would like more deliberation on this issue. It has been ongoing and is being shortcircuited. Ranked choice voting doesn't makes sense until the community has been able to articulate a full range of choices and I am unconvinced that this has happened. I don't buy the urgency that is being used to push this through.
I'd also like more information that will will have once the thing is actually launched.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
(My reasoning is in the long post I added below.)
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 2 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. |
The existence of threads.net is a two-sided sword. While the bad side is scary, it does have a good side: bringing lots of new users into the federation. Better to let them come in, than keep them out, and we can always defederate later.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
Y'all make whatever committees you want. If Social.coop federates with Threads I'll be disappointedly finding a new instance.
(edited to add: It would be so easy to simply make an account on Threads if you want to connect with people who are there. You can do that right now, today, without making the rest of us rejoin facebook. Quite a few of us left on purpose and don't want to go back.)
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
As an entity that tries to operate democratically, we also have a function as a role model. That's why I think it's especially important not to simply accept metas actions unconditionally and defederate for the time being.
| 1 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 4 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. |
I’m not a fan of this voting format. This is forcing me to make a choice on opinions I do not agree with. I can’t rank some of the choices very well as I disagree with them wholeheartedly.
You ask a yes or no question and then ask me to rank 4 options, 3 of which I inherently disagree with.
Threads isn’t on the fediverse yet.
When and if Threads joins the fediverse we should make a decision based on facts. Right now all we have is speculation. Let’s wait and see.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I do not trust Meta, nor in its practices
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I like the idea of creating a draft list of conditions. However, I am doubtful that these can be met or that Meta would be interested in meeting conditions.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
Given Threads is now out, we no longer need to "assume" anything. We know what their moderation policies are in practice so we can now make some very informed decisions. Notable information on what their moderation policy allows: support and engagement with known (and admitted) anti-trans/gay organizations who are well known for throwing their supporters at innocent folks on other platforms. Let's not allow that here. I will move instances if we don't defederate.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
Absolutely love this ranked choice voting as it more fluidly facilitates compromise and forward movement and action, instead of stalemates.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I have recently been persuaded by Erin Kissane's observation that [federating with Threads could also create a moderation capacity issue and expose people to significant risk from targeted harassment](https://social.coop/@kissane@mstdn.social/110669098136994760), just by being so big and difficult to manage through defederation. So I'm now in support of defederating until we have clarity on the moderation consequences— or being prepared to defederate when/if we see unusual levels of harassment.
@J. Nathan Matias I think your new position may corellate to ranking #2: 'Defederate first and set conditions to federate'above #3: 'Wait and see.'
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
Facebook has a long track record of harmful actions, and Threads is allowing hate accounts like Libs of TikTok that we would likely defederate from any other instance that allowed.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I don't belong to any FB apps, and don't want them to have any reason to have access to data in social.coop, to the best of our ability. I would like to vote just for #2, with "nothing below the line". I don't see spending time on conditions, they can't be trusted, and that's ongoing time better spend elsewhere. This has only to do with Meta, nothing to do with people who have or will join Threads, or what they might post.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I don't trust Meta at all. I'm not opposed to communication with Meta, but I know that what they're really after is the ability to track us and get metrics, or possibly, to out-compete the public instances and erase us.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I don't trust Zuckerberg but I get the impression they're not likely to federate or at least if they do it'll be super restricted to who gets "selected". In terms of stealing our data, they do that without federation and I don't think a block'l. stop them, but this is a great step towards handling commercial instances in general
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
Boycotting Facebook on principal is what everyone should do. They have done a great deal of evil (banning and limiting anarchists and even progressives, while coddling reactionaries and fascists all over the world, with genocidal results) and have no pretense of changing their ways. Pragmatically we should federate (if allowed!) to make that case, but only if safe for us. One thing i've not seen mentioned is their alacrity in responding to subpoenas; so interaction gives gov't a one-stop shop.
@benjamin melançon ranking #3 as your top preference indicates a stance of 'Wait and see not 'defederate first'. Was this your intention?
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
Threat indeed, and it seems easier to not federate with them by default, but I don't know about long-term best strategy
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I don't trust Meta
| 1 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. |
Block - the structure of this poll makes it impossible for me to vote in a way that reflects my views and its result cannot meet the bylaws requirement of "more agree votes than disagree votes" in order to be actionable.
Full explanation here: https://www.loomio.com/d/AZcJK6y2/discussion-support-the-anti-meta-fedi-pact/256
@Will Murphy block noted. Fwiw, my assumption was that this was still effective 'reading of sentiment' not a direction to Admins. I'm looking forward to a next iteration yes/no resolution of direction to defederate.
@Will Murphy it appears that the bylaws have interpreted your Block as a 'then lets do nothing'. This clearly isn't what your rankings suggest, or what the consensus of the vote suggests - but are a byproduct of your block and the rules around blocks ("Proposals with Block require at least 9 times more Agree votes than Disagree and Block votes in order to pass."). Perhaps @Brian Vaughan can let you reconsider if you didn't realise this is what your action would do? Otherwise either the bylaws or Loomio voting feels open to question, as they are not able to reflect demonstrable consensus, but do consume notable amounts of volunteered time.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I believe that little is already known about the consequences of federating with threads.net to social.coop or the fediverse. There are both possible ways that threads can benefit the fediverse, but given Meta's intentions and the "embrace, extend, extinguish" model, we should be on guard. I think federating initially is desirable to make it possible to evaluate whether we prefer to federate with threads or not.
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| 1 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
The word threat here is doing a lot of the heavy lifting and might need defining more.
A threat to us being a community together on social.coop?
A threat to the wider development of the fediverse?
etc
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. |
placed my comments below:
https://www.loomio.com/d/AZcJK6y2/discussion-support-the-anti-meta-fedi-pact/266
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I would change 'unless' in 1# to 'until'. I'm less concerned about 'threat' than devaluing social.coop as an alternative to Meta. I encourage the work of committees hashing things out to make public statements so I'm picking #1 over #2.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
Nothing I haven't already stated. I think Meta has nothing but bad intentions based on their history and would compare allowing them to federate with us with allowing an oil refinery to be built right next to a housing coop's land even knowing the oil company's history of pollution and environmental law violations.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I understand a high probability of "Embrace, extend, and extinguish": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 4 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. |
I think Threads is more likely to be a benefit to the Fediverse than not
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
Mine is 2, 1, 3, 4. I'm sorry but for some reason the drag and drop did not work for me on phone,despite perseverance, and phone is my only internet access at present.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 4 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. |
I really dislike the wording here -- honestly, this one comes across to me like a push poll, with over-strong and emotive wording that skews the results. IMO, those tend to be counter-productive...
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I definitely will federate with Threads from my single-user instance because I'm mostly sharing anti-social media documentation anyway, but social.coop is a community around cooperatives, not a propaganda instance. I'd like to broadcast my message to as many people as possible, but this isn't how people use social.coop as far as I understand (which sends a bad message since the goal is to socialize the means of production and to make labor and resources accessible to everyone, but anyway).
| 1 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 4 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. |
Threads is more of a threat to its own users than it is to the Fediverse.
The information it will glean about fediverse users is marginal - especially considering that most users default to using public posts. On the other hand, there is a benefit for social.coop members to connect with friends and more public entities that use Threads.
I believe Eugen Rochko's recent blog addresses the risks posed by Threads well.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. |
I like the idea of a world where we are on an even playing field with Threads and can negotiate with them as peers, even if they are unlikely to meet our expectations. It’s a good faith stance for us to take as one of many groups online.
If/when we federate with them, I also want us to be clear what would cause us to defederate too - likely very similar to the inverse of our expectations to be willing to federate.
| 1 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. |
We can't assume that Meta's new Threads investment is a threat. What if it turns out to be better than expected? I don't support Meta and won't willingly give them any of my personal information. However, as long as they follow all the governance of Mastodon and social.coop, I don't see how we can treat them differently than any other organization in this decentralized community.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
Meta is a known bad actor. If I ever want to engage with folks on Threads, I will create an account on it, or on another instance that is federated with it.
| 1 - We assume that threads.net is inherently and imminently a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop immediately defederates threads.net. | ||
| 2 - We assume that threads.net is a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will defederate threads.net, unless it meets certain conditions that demonstrate it will not be a threat. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions that threads.net must meet, for Social.Coop to consider federating. | ||
| 3 - We assume that threads.net is especially likely to be a threat to Social.Coop and the Fediverse. Social.Coop will federate with threads.net, but will be prepared to defederate if certain conditions occur. We create a committee to draft a list of conditions under which Social.Coop would defederate threads.net. | ||
| 4 - We do not make any assumptions about threads.net. Social.Coop does not immediately defederate threads.net, and does not create any special conditions for federating with threads.net. |
I just want to say that the UI for Loomio is not set up well for ranked-choice voting where the choices have text this long that starts so similarly ("we assume that threads.net blah blah blah". I couldn't differentiate the choices on my phone and even on a real computer it's a pain. Future poll-posters would be well advised to just omit introductions that repeat across the majority of options.
@Eamon Caddigan Loomio dev here. I'm new to the group and enjoying seeing how you're all using the app (and making quick improvements on the fly). Poll options actually have a name and 'meaning' field. The meaning field is not in use here, but it would help a lot. I'm considering what the length limit for name should be and how to encourage use of the meaning field.
@billysmith I'm not familiar with how that works, but it sounds like it may have been a better option for this vote. Where can we read more about it?