Loomio

Discussion: Support the Anti-Meta Fedi Pact

Brian Vaughan PublicSeen by 341

For some time, there have been rumors that Meta (Facebook) has plans to impose itself on the Fediverse. These rumors have recently been confirmed, with the news that Meta is developing a clone of Mastodon, referred to as "Project 92", "Barcelona", or "Threads", and that it has had a meeting with the administrators of several large Mastodon instances, possibly including Eugen Rochko, while silencing them with a non-disclosure agreement.

Meta is an oligopoly that has aggressively sought to control social media, through absorption of other social media companies, and through policies of "embrace, extend, and extinguish", as with the RSS and XMPP protocols. Meta, through Facebook, is infamous for condoning the spread of far right ideology and of dangerous misinformation.

There have been calls for pre-emptively blocking Meta's project. In particular, @vantablack@beach.city, administrator of a small Mastodon instance, beach.city, has proposed the Anti-Meta Fedi Pact.

https://fedipact.online/

I see our best hope in collective resistance.

Therefore, I would like us to discuss whether we should support this move, and if so, how best to do so. As a starting point for discussion, I suggest the following:

  1. Social.Coop commits to blocking any Fediverse instances that Meta creates.

  2. We, as a body, sign the Anti-Meta Fedi Pact.

  3. We follow up by collectively drafting and issuing a public statement.

(As I have not been active in Social.Coop discussions, I hope that the way I am presenting this is appropriate, and I welcome constructive criticism.)

Dynamic
Agree

We may not all agree on whether to defederate from Threads.net, but proactively Limiting a very large instance that is expected to have its own moderation problems seems like a common sense measure.

Eduardo Mercovich
Agree

As I expressed before, I am full on to cut every possible link with Facebook/Meta/Threads because of their documented bad behavior and it's impact for our society.This is, for ethical and pragmatic reasons. If this is the 1st level we can agree, I'm on for it.

Bo Jeanes
Agree

I like this approach because it essentially is a choice to not amplify Threads content. That feels appropriate starting point to me.

Eliot Lash
Disagree

I feel like it's too early to preemptively limit this instance. I agree meta is terrible but they haven't done anything yet in this instance, and there are people on Threads I want to be able to interact with from my social.coop account. I say, keep an eye on them, but limiting them now seems a bit extreme. We can always do so later if needed. If people want to block the instance now, they can already do that individually.

Item removed

Danyl Strype

@Eliot Lash

there are people on Threads I want to be able to interact with from my social.coop account.

FWIW a Limit action doesn't prevent you from doing that. This is the point of using Limit instead of Suspend (full de-federation).

Scott Jenson
Disagree

Same argument as previously stated. I don't trust Facebook, we have to keep an eye on them, they may indeed do something wrong. However, there is potential for good here, however naive, and it makes send to see what happens and once it's clear, THEN limit them. I don't see the value of "performative anger".

Item removed

Randy Hall

@Scott JensonJenson I don't view it as performative anger as much as well-deserved caution. To assume good intentions from a corporate entity that has, to this point, been proven to act in the sole interests of its owners rather than it's users, is a rather naive and doe-eyed way to approach their new service.

Scott Jenson

@Randy Hall I agree with you that caution is very warranted. But this proposal is action. There is a big difference. I think we should be very cautious and trigger ready for action. My point is only that it makes more sense (and gives us more options) to wait.

Justin du Coeur
Agree

Seems like an appropriate level of caution to start with. We can move towards a stricter or looser policy from there, as we get more evidence of how Threads behaves itself.

Rich Jensen
Agree

Seems to be the prepratory step to voting to SUSPEND, ie.. defederate.

Danyl Strype

@Rich Jensen

Seems to be the prepratory step to voting to SUSPEND, ie.. defederate.

Not necessarily. Those supporting Suspend may find that in practice, Limit is sufficient to address their concerns.

Denman Rooke
Agree

I agree with limiting Threads.net as it allows users to individually decide how they interact with the instance while keeping it at arms length. I don't trust Meta as a company, but I don't want to fully defederate from the instance completely as I'd like to connect with friends & family and then try and convince them to move instance :)

Brecht Savelkoul
Agree

I think limiting is the least we could do to prevent being flooded with abuse the moment Threads starts federating, while also giving individual members the chance to interact with people they trust.

Limiting is also a decision that's easily reversible. So if Meta surprises us and actually turns out to be a well-run good citizen of the fediverse, then we can lift this measure accordingly. I highly doubt that will happen, but it might be good to have the option just in case.

Harris
Agree

There seems to be a lot of antipathy toward Threads on our server and I think this is a reasonable way to address that, at least as an initial action.

Nathan Schneider
Agree

I think this is a very reasonable compromise. As someone opposed to fully defederating (I want to be able to follow people on Threads while staying on Social.coop), I hope that this approach helps satisfy those with concerns about welcoming Meta to the fediverse uncritically.

Ed Summers @edsu
Agree

I think a good follow on to this poll, if it passes, is whether we should suspend Threads if it comes online in the Fediverse.

Michael Potter
Disagree

I feel the question is whether to defederate or not, or possibly a choice of whether to federate with Threads at all, and I think this should be done in the same manner as other cases.

Jay
Agree

I think limiting is wise, especially given a lot of people’s apprehension about this. I’m glad it won’t be a full suspend.

Can we explicitly add that removing the limit is not off the table?

Dynamic

@Jay

In principle, I don't suppose anything is off the table, but my intention behind the proposal (and the assumption that I think many have made in their votes) is that the limit would be a standing policy. I understand if this causes you to change your vote.

Buddy
Abstain

Helping meet quorum

Shauna Gordon-McKeon
Agree

Limiting is my preferred solution, as I would like to follow any friends of mine who are on Threads but also respect/share the desire to minimize Threads' impact on the Fediverse.

mike_hales
Abstain

This is way over my head.

Stephanie Jo Kent
Agree

Caution is warranted. Do good first then we can see!

Derek Caelin
Disagree

I appreciate the efforts by people on this thread to find a solution that works for a large group of people. I could live with this scenario, but I prefer not to.

It comes back to the harm we are seeking to avoid. If we think Threads users will be bad actors, limiting (or defederation) is a good policy. But if we think the harm is that Meta will extend surveillance to our users, limiting (or defederation) doesn't address that problem.

Steve Ediger (ChiCommons)
Agree

Imin favor of blocking completely. However, lanking consensus on that, I'm willing to support limiting it.

Casey Watts
Disagree

This is worse than fully allowing or disallowing folks to connect with Threads users - it’ll add confusion and not really achieve the same outcomes either

Flancian
Disagree

I personally currently disagree with limiting the instance before it exists, but I also think it's a sensible proposal and much better than defederating outright; so I'm happy to effect this as a member of the CWG group if it passes.

Randy Hall

@Flancian@Flanciani I would say that it strikes a reasonable balance at the outset. It's not outright blocking their new service, but recognizes that the corporate entity has a long and verified track record of disregard for their users, and possible (probable?) strategies to "embrace-extend-extinguish" ActivityPub are things to be on the lookout for. Doing nothing and assuming good intentions on the part of Meta is foolish to say the least, and taking a reactionary stance later will be more difficult, in my opinion.

Randy Hall
Agree

I am in favor of choice, so long as the safety of our coop members is valued above convenience. I have zero problem defederating Threads preemptively, but so long as that option will be able to be considered in the future (ie it's not off the table with passage of this proposal), I will support this proposal now as it provides the best possible (for now) stance on Meta and their entrance into the Fediverse.

Konrad Lawson
Disagree

I don’t think the threat necessitates preemptive action.

Ivan
Agree

It seems like a good middle ground and would hopefully protect against abuse until Meta shows their true colors.

More importantly this would allow some choice for users. User choice is good.

Tod Robbins
Agree

This seems like a very reasonable approach to me.

Derek Caelin
Agree

I've revised my response to "agree" - it's not my preference, but I could live with this setup. We should be clear that our policy could be revised (either towards defederation, or toward opening) based on the behaviors of Threads and users.

Colin Williams
Disagree

I dislike Meta, but I have yet to see data showing that Threads content is so problematic as to justify preemptively limiting before they even federate If that data exists, Limit seems like a great first step. Barring that data, I disagree with taking action. Instead, Threads federation should be closely monitored if/when it happens.

Additionally, Threads joining the fediverse could be a boon, making it accessible to significantly more people and locking in ActivityPub as the protocol.

Scott McGerik
Agree

I don't follow the Federated timeline but that's because I don't have time to keep up with it. Perhaps limiting is the best option for those who follow the Federated timeline but don't want to see posts from Threads.

Aaron
Disagree

Due to the network effects of social networks, I believe that even limiting Threads increases the value of Threads, which is not something I want to be a part of in any way. I would rather something operated by Meta be completely off in its own virtual dystopia, than with an opt-in bridge to go over there. Also I believe that Meta will do any and everything to harvest any type of data that crosses over to Threads, as this is typical for the company which has no regard for user privacy.

Danyl Strype
Agree

This seems like a sensible compromise. Once Chains actually starts federating over AP, we'll be able to gather some data on how that's affected social.coop members, which will then inform any further moderation actions relating to it.

Dynamic

@Danyl Strype

Chains?

Danyl Strype

@Dynamic

I refuse to call it "Threads". Meta calling their server that is an attempt to hijack and privatise a generic term, widely used in social media. "Chains" is a more accurate description of their new DataFarm.

Dynamic

@Danyl Strype

Got it. I have similar reasons for always adding the "dot net" to my references to them.

Erik Moeller
Agree

I think "Limit" accomplishes a reasonable compromise: it lets users follow trusted, good actors on Threads, while mitigating the risk of bad actors harming our community.

Billy Smith
Disagree

FB operates as a "Surveillance Capitalism" organisation as their main Premise-For-Existence.

The reason that i joined the Fediverse was to avoid that system.

(Yes, i know about the Snowden disclosures, so everything on the internet is surveilled anyway, but it's too useful a tool to completely discard because of that.)

FB have been complicit in oppression and genocide.

The Generative AI needing data for content generation.

It's another Dumpster Fire waiting for the spark to set it ablaze.

Dynamic

@Billy Smith

Can you elaborate on why this translates as a down-vote? (I have a guess, but I don't want to make assumptions.)

Billy Smith

@Dynamic

I would like a full block.

While this approach is a compromise, it won't work.

FB never negotiate in good faith, and we'd be fools for believing them if they tried, as they have consistently and continuously lied about what they were doing.

I am not a "dumb fuck".

Billy Smith

@Dynamic

Yes, i have relatives that use FB, as it was the simplest way for them to do things, but they are stuck due to the network effect.

JohnKuti
Agree

As I understand it, "limit" does not remove any functionality from individual users. It's just a denial of collective support for the limited instance.