Loomio
Mon 9 Mar 2015 3:12PM

Feasibility of online cryptocurrencies versus digitally managed credit systems (i.e. Ripple)

MDB Mathijs de Bruin Public Seen by 124

Hey all,

Personally, I would be more in favor of supporting city- or region-bound local currencies - but for the purpose of giving the #grexit scenario some momentum I think this might be a very interesting potential for effective form of direct action.

For every Euro that is taken of the bank, about 10-20 euro’s will disappear from the market - providing an excellent vector of attack, giving that a suffciently effective alternative is in practise.

However, while visiting Greece for the last couple of weeks one thing I noticed is the low penetration of mobile internet-connected devices (i.e. tablets and smartphones). Hence, for the introduction of a cryptocurrency to take off, we would have to introduce a paper or physical complement or double. In any case, I urge people to study the Ripple protocol, starting by the following resource:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M16ZatXbmLg

(Note that whenever you hear Gateway, you should realize that they’re essentially a superset of what we would traditionally consider a Bank.)

If we are willing to settle for a more centrally (but perhaps democratically) managed currency, we could use something like Ripple to introduce any number of digital/physical currencies. Doing this would give us the convenience of easy exchange and direct money transfers as long as people are willing to buy and sell eDrahma for Euro’s. In this scenario the challanges will be in getting the currency accepted by users as well as assuring that it is actually the community managing the currency, as the currency creation would have to be centralized (though federation of authority, with several local ‘banks’ should be now problem).

In this case, a better approach would be to have a plethora of local currencies, as I mentioned in the beginning of the mail. This way there will be no centralization and thus no single point of attack for (tax) authorities and the likes. Think of it as a digital extension for the LETS system. As this would, ideally, make use of communities who already have some means to represent themselves, determining the monetary policy would be less of a problem.

Alternatively to the aforementioned approach, we could settle for a fork of an existing Bitcoin-clone. The clear advantage with Bitcoin-like protocols being that they are fundamentally decentralized. However, we should (somehow) make informed decisions on monetary policy: i.e. wether to go with an inflationary (like fiat currencies) or a deflationary (like Bitcoin) model, whether and how to do mining and (again) how to convince people of the value of this thing.

In both cases, the software-part would be hard but still several factors to the social part. The difficult part with introducing community currencies is to convince communities to accept the currency, to make sure it integrates with and aligns with the interests of the people. This latter part might be more easily accomplished by opting for the first option - though previous lessons suggest this is a proces that takes time.

Perhaps the wise way to go is to opt for a hybrid strategy; introducing the eDrahma as a Bitcoin-fork on a short term, as a form of direct action or intervention. On the long term I hope to be able to package Ripple or an equally powerful technology (Ethereum) such that it will be easy for any community to introduce, manage and swap their own currency.

For more information about alternative currencies, please see my knowledge base (under construction):
https://decentralize.hackpad.com/Decentralized-monetary-systems-3tNKyXVEqXM

PAF

Petros At FreeLab Mon 9 Mar 2015 3:18PM

EDIT
I run through the Ripple presentation video and it looks pretty straightforward. If we deal with the community which already has some king of monetary system, with accounts and a clearing center of any kind, it is a no-brainer to make this very clearing center a gateway. So the whole community gets (potentially) included.
As for the people who do not (want to) go through such a community, is it possible/practical to make each of them a gateway? This would solve the problem of privacy and (lack of) trust for quite a big group.

Did I understand it correctly?

MDB

Mathijs de Bruin Mon 9 Mar 2015 3:27PM

This is the point where you want to get a bit into Ripple, this is exactly what it does.

In short: we would create gateways for all alternative currencies. These allow deposits of ‘offline’ currencies (Euro and LETS alike) in return for digital equivalents thereof. These digital equivalents act like credit notes which can be transferred to other users, who can then claim the original deposit back from this particular gateway or other gateways given a sufficiently strong trust relationship exists between them.

PAF

Petros At FreeLab Mon 9 Mar 2015 3:33PM

:D
OK, sounds interesting enough to get deeper into it.

MS

Matthew Slater Mon 9 Mar 2015 3:55PM

yes I love ripple but I am hesitant to discuss technical solutions before a currency has been designed. A major factor for adoption is the number of ways to pay. At the moment the only way I know to pay with ripple is through their web gateway, rippletrade.com so its not very practical as it stands. I think we need to take about 3 steps back, and ask more basic questions
-who is the currency for
-what will they be using it for
-how will they want to make payments
-who is the trusted party?
then other questions like
-what resources are available to design, build and promote it?
- who are likely partners?
- how much work is involved?
- what would be the PR angle, regarding things like national pride, tax, the economy, the people doing it for themselves etc
- who is already doing something similar

MDB

Mathijs de Bruin Mon 9 Mar 2015 5:15PM

The questions you mention sounds sensible to me, though currency by itself is already pretty much technical solution of course. Perhaps we need to discuss these, or some of these, as separate questions on Loomio - as not all of them are equally interesting to all involved.

My idea would imply to make (a plethora of) currencies, each one with its own paper form. However, the paper money would have a cryptographic signature and would be invalidated (and ideally, destroyed) as soon as deposited on a digital (and cryptographically secure) account. Hence, the digital currency would be leading, allowing for cryptographically secure encounting and money creation.

The idea I just had when walking to the shop is to create a Raspberry Pi distribution for creating, depositing and printing community currencies. This is a broad idea I’ve been exploring for some time but the idea of having an embedded hardware solution easily to employ at a point of sale and/or community currency gateways might make adaptation a lot easier.