Linked Open Data

I asked the programmer I work with (http://stackoverflow.com/users/479863/mu-is-too-short ) to explain this thread (am a layman when it comes these things!)

He pointed to Bob's comment saying:
"This pretty much sums it up: https://www.loomio.org/d/5WOvZfEq/linked-open-data#comment-174375

That "15 years" should be more like "25-30 years". Things like this predate the web by a long long time."

@carolinesmalley - “25-30 years”? Little did I know...;-)

@lynnfoster:

identifiers are URLs, yes.

the mechanism to distribute changes from the primary records to replica copies is independent of Linked Data. this is all an open question, however a possible solution that would work today is using Linked Data Fragments to do federated queries across "spaces" you trust to find the data you want, then if you want to update or listen to changes just do it directly to the "space" that owns the data. more mad science distributed data systems are gundb and secure-scuttlebutt.

I recommend watching those two videos:

• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x_xzT5eF5Q
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vioCbTo3C-4

Manu also coauthored RDFa spec and now leads http://web-payments.org effort (AFAIK thanks to which JSON-LD came to existence)

For more detailed and advanced topics you can check out http://www.euclid-project.eu/

Last but not least, I hope everyone developing for the web have taken some time to read: http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/

@bobhaugen ...he's old!

@carolinesmalley - I'm 73. Older than dirt.

@elfpavlik - euclid looks pretty comprehensive, thanks!

@elfpavlik thanks for the vids :) watched one.. and no I haven't read.. took a quick look, but to be honest, it's somewhat over my head!

okay.. so, in seeking to figure out what all this means in a practical / where's the relevance to me 'layman's' kinda way, here's where I'm at:

guess what i'm thinking is CM creates a backbone that apps (all bells and whistles aka 'features') plug into and end result is OpenApp Ecosystem. there could be multiple backbones for different platforms but if the backbones share transferable (translatable?!) protocols, then all data could be shared somewhat seamlessly. if we implement key words (data fields) that relate to the work / what we're trying to achieve, we could map relationships that would accelerate our abiltiy to get there. see idea of Data Analysis for creation of a Prosperity Graph (came up with the idea a while back when a data analyst asked me "what sort of graph would CM create?") http://thecitizensmedia.com/pub/section/data-analysis?id=1155

think i've sent this already, but here's a link to platform we've built. so what would the backbone comprise of? what's the skeleton, so to speak? thinking the answer = the cms, which we've designed to connect distributed data. blogs (with language translation) becomes an app, profiles... and so on. http://thecitizensmedia.com/pub/section/the-platform?id=1119

sorry guys.. bad to kindergarten?!

@bobhaugen relativity + blackholes?!

@carolinesmalley - is the source for that stuff open? e.g. github repo, whatever? (Forgive me if it was obvious and I'm blind...)

Maybe sharing simple example I played with can help with avoiding drifting into black holes ;)

If it will sound confusing, I plan to record short screencast and already have sequence diagram for it which can make it clearer. I made 4 very simple elements:

• https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webfingerd
• https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled
• https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webserviced
• https://github.com/elf-pavlik/greeting-app

webfingerd simply helps to discover my profile page from my email address, so having perpetual-tripper@wwelves.org it will return https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper (or any other URL I want)

webprofiled serves my Linked Data profile, currently supporting RDFa and JSON-LD
to see graph embeded in RDFa just copy source of https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper/ and paste into http://rdfa.info/play/
to see JSON-LD one can use simple Content-Negotiation, in terminal: $ curl https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper/ -H "Accept: application/ld+json" BTW HTML page with RDFa gets generated from that JSON-LD currently with mustache but I plan to yank out part of http://viejs.org to do it in nicer way

webserviced offers for now just login/logout with Mozilla Persona and discovery of Linked Data profile location via webfinger

webfingerd, webprofiled, webserviced all do http://enable-cors.org/

greeting-app just provides super basic SPA to interact with webserviced. for now I can login from browser javascript console with navigator.id.request()
then it sends it to webprofiled (easily hosted on different domain than one which serves greeting-app). once i do persona dance webservice will get from webfingered URL to my webpage powered by webprofiled and then get data in JSON-LD. after that it sends it to greeting-app which greets me with my name and avatar.

let's imagine now that we replace webserviced with loomio backend and greeting-app with loomio frontend. this way i can just click 'Login with Persona' and it will greet me my name, avatar, know my current location, languages i speak, whatever i decide to publish in my independent homepage, in my case powered by webprofiled but someone else can just write it with text editor, use Drupal, Wordpress whatever :)

Once front end connects to CORS aware services, it can for example send my posts and comments, at the same time to my Personal Data Space and to instance(s) of loomio backend. It may make less sense for discourse type of features, but if I want to offer a rideshare or couch, nowadays I can't easily post it to http://blablacar.com , http://carpooling.com, http://liftshare.com etc. I also can't use my favorite trip planner app but need to deal with different human (graphical) interface to interact with 'different' services which in practice offer exactly the same functionality. Lately I find the last issue of big importance, imagine if you would need to use the same email client that your friend uses to receive a message (hell no!) relevant links here: http://decoupledcms.org/ & http://hydra-cg.com/

IMO having common vocabularies to express concepts we interact with ( http://schema.org & http://lov.okfn.org ) as well as common ways of specifying what interaction we can have with those resources (http://schema.org/Action & http://hydra-cg.com ) gives us nice foundation for building systems which can interoperate :)

BTW I would encourage technical folks to join http://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg and less technical ones to join: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig

I hope this post didn't run to long or got to confusing...

@bobhaugen it will be! through PPL is the intention (http://thecitizensmedia.com/pub/section/peer-production-design?id=1171) we'll be re-writing in either python or ruby. we began building back in 2006.. what we were trying to achieve in terms of key goals along with our thinking = practically the same as Joshua speaks to.

what's worth keeping is what we've learned in building distributed architecture. (note info and link i sent to access sandbox)

i asked Eric how to answer: (and yes.. he does keep a github)
The code isn't open right now and can't be shared with anyone until there's been time to do a full sweep to make sure nothing private (such as keys, passwords, ...) is in there. I think a lot of the existing code is obsolete anyway, there's still a lot of stuff in there that's leftover from the state of the art (or more accurately, the lack of useful frameworks and such) as of 2006 when I started it. I don't think there's anything worth bothering with in the source code, the database schema and maybe some of the internationalization/localization ideas are the only bits worth considering IMO.

@elfpavlik - your comment was not too long, I really want those kinds of details. Thanks!

@carolinesmalley - would be good to have somebody rewrite the PPL to cover software a bit more explicitly.

@elfpavlik - you wrote " I plan to record short screencast and already have sequence diagram for it which can make it clearer."

Yes please, sequence diagram!

@bobhaugen moved this topic to https://www.loomio.org/d/Aho7cdZP/webdpack-exmple

@bobhaugen agreed. perhaps something that will drop out of this process? difficult to say. my personal take is that the only way to get answers is get it going. guessing there will need to be some kind of stackoverflow rating system that 'weighs' a programmers contribution to whatever app's being developed, then anything anyone does in using the app for commercial gain get's distributed in proportion to contribution/rating. lots of potential to get kinda messy.

@carolinesmalley - We'd like to develop a treatment of this for software development. Based on github commits.

Source: https://github.com/valnet/valuenetwork

It's now being used for open hardware creation and document workflows.

We're here in the OpenApp Ecosystem to figure out if we can turn it into a bunch of open apps.

Okay, so what is the collective noun for Open Apps? (Like, a flock of pigeons, or a murder of crows, or ...?)

an ecosystem of apps..? :)
Note: the way Mikey and have been talking about it internally is "services" (api's that do one thing), "apps" that have a frontend and probably combine and use several "services".

"stores" are a particular sort of "service" for data resources , and are how React describe a similar concept.

@elfpavlik thanks for the great links to bounce on, especially Socialwg. I requested to join but it seems not so straight forward process

@tiborkatelbach please see: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Applied_for_Membership
also for now everyone can more easily join
http://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig

This Reddit thread provides some good backround discussion on "Why isn't the [Semantic Web] taking over the world after a decade?"
http://www.reddit.com/r/semanticweb/comments/2eo6rj/why_isnt_semweb_taking_over_the_world_after_over/

One of the core designers of JSON-LD Marcus Lanthaler and Dmitri Van Hees will be giving workshops on Linked Data at the API conference in the Uk later this month. Hopefully their talks make it online.

First of all, thanks for the EUCLID and mkbergman links.

From the perspective of the TransforMap/MMM project, Linked Open Data is the preferred way of integrating multiple (150+) data sources, even if it is only referred to as a blueprint.

What I see especially challanging, next to all admittedly already thrilling technical questions, is the social process of creating shared vocabularies. The d:swarm alpha, coming from library sciences with help from AKSW, is one of the interfaces that I can imagine becoming a collaborative ontology editor. Very much like AKSW's OntoWiki approach.

Fortunately philosophy already tells us that the world seems to exist as a multitude of local ontologies and no universal streamlining is neccessary.

Intro to Google's Knowledge Graph http://www.google.com/insidesearch/features/search/knowledge.html.

@bobhaugen you might want to check https://lists.okfn.org/pipermail/open-sustainability/2014-September/000374.html and comment. Seems to closely relate to your value network project? And others in this group could be interested :)

@paulmackay1 - thanks a lot. I'll see if I can make contact.
(followup: I did make contact with Philipp Grunewald, who sent me some questions, and I sent some answers, and so far, that was the end of the conversation. If anybody would actually like to read the conversation, let me know, but it probably is not going anywhere.)

There are lots of technical formalisms in the paper that I don’t understand, and to my mind the paper does not actually identify the “secrets” to engineering digital commons. But that’s okay. What is more important to me, for now, is that there are computer scientists deliberately trying to figure out how to engineer “planned emergence,” as Pitt et al. put it. The scientists envision “a new type of intrinsically adaptive institution” that can adapt to rapid changes in the social, technological and physical environment (unlike contemporary government). They also seek to combine “top-down control and coordination [with] bottom-up emergence and adaptation” in order to create hybrid institutions.

via Bollier.org about a pay-walled paper on Axiomatization of Socio-Economic Principles for Self-Organizing institutions. The full abstract:

We address the problem of engineering self-organizing electronic institutions for resource allocation in open, embedded, and resource-constrained systems. In such systems, there is decentralized control, competition for resources and an expectation of both intentional and unintentional errors. The “optimal” distribution of resources is then less important than the endurance of the distribution mechanism. Under these circumstances, we propose to model resource allocation as a common-pool resource management problem, and develop a formal characterization of Elinor Ostrom’s socio-economic principles for self-governing institutions. This article applies a method for sociologically inspired computing to give a complete axiomatization of six of Ostrom’s eight principles in the Event Calculus. A testbed is implemented for experimenting with the axiomatization. The experimental results show that these principles support enduring institutions, in terms of longevity and membership, and also provide insight into calibrating the transaction and running costs associated with implementing the principles against the behavioral profile of the institutional membership. We conclude that it is possible to express Ostrom’s principles in logical form and that they are necessary and sufficient conditions for enduring self-organizing electronic institutions to manage sustainable common-pool resources.

@tiborkatelbach @elfpavlik @jonrichter @lynnfoster I'm putting these here instead of in the OpenAppsJS Project discussion.
http://mikorizal.org/lynn_foster.json
http://mikorizal.org/bob_haugen.json

Minimal, I know, but are they valid?

And what's the diff between those and http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebID ?

@bobhaugen WebID is an authentication system based on in-browser client-certificates that is currently contested by the identity pattern developed by the Web Payments group.

Your client certificates' public key(s) get published on your URI so you can log-in anywhere your WebID is used for authentication. Also see Henry Story's XWiki WebID page for an example.

@jonrichter - ok, so we got (a) the stuff I copied and pasted from what @tiborkatelbach posted, (b)WebID, and (c) the identity pattern developed by the Web Payments group (this? https://web-payments.org/specs/source/identity-credentials/ )

Any more contenders? And which should we choose, assuming we need to choose?

That's @elfpavlik's playground.

Thanks Bob for the home work.
Jon is right that we build our person json-ld map based on elf's profile , in order to share something existing that we agreed with instead of creating yet another profile endpoint. I'm working on the person editor at the moment based on these input fields.

I missed the context for this but Mikey got this started https://github.com/enspiral/craftodex-data

WebID and the Web Payments identity are both based on foaf:Person or schema.org:Person objects, so we're good.

nice profiles++ :D
maybe some of those old-ish examples will come handy: https://github.com/ouisharelabs/plp-berlin-hacks

@tiborkatelbach what do you miss in https://github.com/hackers4peace/plp-editor

we may hack on it for few more hours tomorrow (see issues and pull requests)

@ahdinosaur why did you chose YAML? i also considered it when preparing plp-berlin-hacks repo but then went with CSON

@elfpavlik, i like writing YAML more than writing JSON and didn't think of CSON. what are your thoughts on YAML vs CSON for JSON-LD objects like this?

@elfpavlik I just need a form inside our application it's doing the same thing but has to correspond to our design specifications, and small application specifities , but the end point json-ld is the same

http://yaml.org/spec/1.2/spec.html#id2759572

preferably I would like that we have tooling that allows everyone who wants to write such files by hand to freely choose JSON || CSON || YAML and it all gets send over wire as JSON-LD (once we need to scale better then also HDT http://ruben.verborgh.org/blog/2014/09/30/bringing-fast-triples-to-nodejs-with-hdt/ )

@ahdinosaur can you point me to code which converts your YAML to JSON?

@elfpavlik: thanks for the links. yeah, i agree on the tooling goal. to answer your question, that code doesn't exist yet. now that i have some profile data dreamcode and profile vocab dreamcode, i'll give another go at writing code that uses the vocabs to intelligently SCRUD (search, create, read, update, delete) the data, starting with converting the data to wire formats like JSON and serving basic reads.

I used the yaml-js module

Yo @bobhaugen I tried to load your JSON into our PLP deployment at http://profiles.allmende.io/ and found you would need to http://enable-cors.org/ on your webserver.

@jonrichter - how about this?
http://profiles.allmende.io/provider/8cff2c5f-5b0d-44e8-9d9d-f8f928d40308

(Re enabling cors, I don't think our JSON is correct yet. It was a noob stab at the homework assignment. Still studying how to format and deploy, don't like bob_haugen.json, doesn't seem to be how people do it.)

@bobhaugen Nice, isn't it? It seems we can propagate the PLP schema also to the Open Knowledge Foundation.

@tiborkatelbach How's it evolving on your side? We may have to cooperate soon to finish the event and places schemas. Assetts are also up next, according to @elfpavlik .

@jonrichter Projects before Assets! but now on the road :D https://twitter.com/elfpavlik/status/522824802940100608

@jonrichter @elfpavlik what do you think of this stuff that @ahdinosaur and @lynnfoster and I are working on?
We put a text version of our OVN vocab here:
https://github.com/valnet/valuenetwork/blob/master/docs/core_model.txt
and are working with Mikey to LOD it here:
https://github.com/openvocab/ovn

We'd like to get in sync if possible. But as Mikey says, it's a marathon not a sprint.

@bobhaugen I believe we will have to quietly work through your published pieces. Meanwhile I've submit a small PR.

:+1: for Marathon. sigh In MMM/TransforMap we always say the process is an elk/a moose ...

@jonrichter - we use process pretty much the same way as IPOtables that @elfpavlik is working on. Takes inputs, gives outputs. Or think of it as a function.

But yeah, lotta overloaded words in these territories. Project is another. So is Asset.

I just want to make sure that we keep the term Project out of the disussion; at least as long as possible.

I refer "to these things" often quite practically to as Processes. As I like to think into spatiotemporal terms, coming from Physics. Newtonian's could even bring in Forces now, but that's another thing; quickly touching questions of hegemonial gouvernance.

Well, please everyone, have your daily update on Organized Networks. The one link from Ned Rossiter's Blog, together with Geert Lovink that I must have mentionned earlier. And you may also like my introductory paragraphs about it in the Public Space Invaders essay.
We have an obligation towards our littermates (Hans Jonas) that we get those hyper-structuralist (just-made-up) concepts out of our minds. sentence said.

In a cybernetic way, one could even prioritize Knowledge over Assett, arguing in a way that the collective intentionality of swarms (networks, multitudes / E. Thacker 2004) is only been built through the Extension of Mind through assets (> Philosophy of Mind, qualia, neuronal correlate disucssions) in action.

There is no Project at all, only probability functions in n-dimensional, topologic space. Have a look at TopoTime or Fluid Views, for example. The compartiments of the aggregates might be less complex in the end, than we thought.

Pardon me. Just revisiting some earlier thoughts continually.

@jonrichter - you're pardoned, barely. Only because of the Fluid Views reference...;-)

And yes please, keep Project out of the discussion.

But maybe repeat the urls for "Organized Networks. The one link from Ned Rossiter’s Blog, together with Geert Lovink that I must have mentionned earlier. And you may also like my introductory paragraphs about it in the Public Space Invaders essay"?

@jonrichter , we are really moving forward but since we're doing this a side project, because it's auto financed , we're not as efficient as we'de like to be.
but our roadmap has Person, Organization, next are Events, and Projects and Assets/Ressources could follow.
our first batch is in schema.org vocab, I'd also like to convert to Activtity Streams very soon
but in the mean time we could prepare the data structures for our assets endpoint, on buidingCommons

@bobhaugen @ahdinosaur @lynnfoster, excellent work on the endpoints, we have to sort out our common usage , if we want to share our endpoints , it would be great to have a work session on these, I see a lot of similarities
especially for the interface approach , I'd love to show you the automated form generator based on Type definitions

@jonrichter fluid Views is really excellent do you have contact with Marian ? it could be a super integration into our data representations

@tiborkatelbach I must admit that I find your use of term 'endpoint' bit confusing! so far i would say thatwe work on common schemas

endpoint i would suggest reserving for things like

• http://schema.org/EntryPoint
• http://www.hydra-cg.com/spec/latest/core/#discovering-a-hydra-powered-web-api
• http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2-actions.html#dfn-potentialactionhandler

@bobhaugen @ahdinosaur thanks for link to repositories, will try to check it out ASAP!

@elfpavlik sure common schemas is good

i have a question for you @elfpavlik, and anyone else who has experience with OWL/RDF-style Linked Open Data, regarding how to model @lynnfoster and @bobhaugen's model for value networks. they are using the type object pattern, reminiscent of smalltalk, which i really like. however, i'm starting to get the feeling that this is against the grain of how OWL/RDF is intended to be modeled. the popular way seems to be to make new subclasses for all the things. instead of just Process and ProcessType, we would have something like Process, TranslationProcess, 3DPrintingProcess, etc.

what do you think? if we should do subclassing, i'm gonna try and learn more about how vocabs are defined and rethink how i do my schemas, so they can describe vocabs instead of contexts, which honestly might be better given the power that could be unlocked with software that provides an easy way to define entirely new vocabs (even if most are sameAs or equivalentClass) and also intimately understands vocabs instead of just contexts (like being able to understand the defined similarities between foaf:Person and schema.org:Person).

Is creating lots of subclasses that beneficial? I like the pragmatic approach by Popolo spec, e.g. see note about org types here: http://popoloproject.com/specs/organization.html:

"In general, subclasses should only be used if the benefits outweigh the complexity. It is of no use to create the classes Partnership, LimitedCompany, UnlimitedCompany, etc. if all these classes behave the same way in your use case. It is simpler to use the classification property in that case."

thanks @paulmackay1, that's a great example of the type object pattern in the wild. i feel better now, haha. :)

@paulmackay1 Excellent doc on popolo , it's exactly in the the openApp & building common startegy and very close to Human PIxel as well , it would be a pleasure to see how we can converge our energies ?

Some advantages of type objects can be seen in Sensorica. Here are their ResourceTypes. Want to create a subclass for each of them?
http://nrp.sensorica.co/accounting/resources/

Or here's the Driftless Herbal Exchange Network:
http://dhen.webfactional.com/accounting/resources/
They're just getting started, they'll have more.

@jonrichter @elfpavlik minor correction on our use of process vs IPOtables: what IPOtables calls Process, we call ProcessType. IPOtables is actually creating type objects.
Here's how type objects fit into economic networks:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxlqOeaPnXHfN0RMemRPMWpDdlk/view?usp=sharing

@tiborkatelbach - we have Activity Streams on our roadmap, too. Please ping us when you get there, and we will do the same.

@ahdinosaur yesterday while hitchhiking i got chance to read ~40% of http://workingontologist.org/

i find it very nicely explaining things, in the middle of RDFS chapter now which explains some nice patterns with using rdfs:subClassOf, rdfs:subPropertyOf, rdfs:domain, rdfs:range and how inference works there!

@paulmackay1 I need to take some time go learn more about poplo! BTW how about doing in next days call around Code for All API? @tiborkatelbach it also has projects! http://codeforamerica.org/api/#api-projects and I played with JSON-LD macro for it https://github.com/elf-pavlik/cfapi-browser/blob/master/app.js#L6

@bobhaugen I don't know if you saw this tool
qa.pixelhumain.com/ph/tools/vie
to write schema.org schemas
but I'm planning on adapting it for AS very soon to make it easy to generate forms automatically for creating semantically structured data
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHL-RoHdoNo

I need to pull it out as a standalone project actualy
but the first alpha POC is here to play with :)

What do people mean by Project? For Sensorica, it is a combination of an organization (project team) and a product line: long-life, no definite end, e.g. we are working on drones. For some people, it is more like a process: defined deliverables/goals, expected end date. For others, somewhere in the middle.

@elfpavlik , we have to find a way to commonise our efforts
This week end would be great for a call , I'm on travel after that

@tiborkatelbach - thanks, I had not seen that tool. Unfortunately, looks like we will be referencing a lot more vocabs than schema.org. In general, at least so far, where schema.org and goodrelations define the same concept, I like goodrelations better. Could the same tool work for different vocabs?

@bobhaugen Martin Hepp works on aligning Schema.org and GoodRelations even further!

• http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vocabs/2014Oct/0066.html
• http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vocabs/2014Oct/0075.html

@paulmackay1 Agree on subclasses vs types. Of course there is always a gray area, and it tends to be a bit of an art, but here are a couple possible criteria:

I think subclasses should be used where there are clearly different properties and behavior, and the classes are universally used. For example, Person and Organization are useful as subclasses.

On the other hand, if the types can/should be user defined, you would not want to use subclasses. For example you wouldn't want TranslationProcessType or 3DPrintingProcessType, per the @ahdinosaur example. If you want users to define their types and there is behavior involved, you can put that at a level above the type level, and the user can choose the type-type, so to speak. :)

A copy of original TypeObject pattern:
http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/jeremy.gibbons/dpa/typeobject.pdf

See advantages and disadvantages.

Citation info for original:
http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=273453

Agree with @tiborkatelbach on meeting to figure out how to better organize our efforts here.

I wonder if we should have separate sub-groups and/or separate loomio discussions for each piece of the schema? Like Agent (Person/Org), Project, OVN operations (big but needs to be cohesive), etc. Subgroups could present back for further comment.

Other thoughts?

@bobhaugen

it's the objective to integrate Activity Streams next
and prepare a common and generic process and format to make it easy
to travel inside lov.okfn.org
to write schemas
to generate the corresponding form dynamically

@elfpavlik code for all Civic Tech is really clsoe as well
we really have to converge , there's to many similarity to all be doing the same thing :)

@tiborkatelbach - here's where we are going with Activity Streams. Might need to be an extension:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1JEPsxJOjEMHNhvIGLXzcvovrpXqpoY75YaPHDKI0t9w/edit#slide=id.g368effe15_0192

Re convergence: how many of us are trying to do the same thing, or part of the same thing, or intersecting things?

What values do we share?

How many of us would have the same ideas about e.g. Project, Asset, Process, etc.?

Which of these territories is most ripe for convergence? I'm guessing Agent(Person, Organization). What next?

I'm not expecting detailed answers to all of those questions now. They are just factors in how to organize a practical convergence.

Why not create a doc a bit like https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oSq4L6rvgQlcZDLgdalzyBnFpU41RxPEjh2HlU_s3Io/edit#gid=0 ( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oSq4L6rvgQlcZDLgdalzyBnFpU41RxPEjh2HlU_s3Io/edit#gid=0 ) and list the object types in 1st column, then properties in the next column? Add suitable descriptions. Could that be a useful way to iterate on what the different views are on objects, attributes and their meanings?

That's excelent Paul
does popolo have an interface for creating all these structures ?

Maybe add a column for each different definition of the same concept?

Or "same as" or "similar to"?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "an interface for creating"?

Perhaps it would be worth starting a separate doc where you could add more columns? That CfAPI doc is specifically for the evolution of that API, whereas here there seems to be several projects and a need to at least see where the harmonisation or differences are?

@paulmackay1 - I assumed you meant, start a new doc based on that idea.

Question for the LOD savvy: what is (or what are) the viewpoint(s) of LOD? Individual agent or independent? Or both or either, depending on situation?

I am scratching my head.

For example, from the viewpoint of a buyer, it's a purchase order. From the viewpoint of a seller, it's a customer order. From the independent view, it's an order.

Or, the independent view of a hierarchical relationship is that it's a hierarchical relationship, or more broadly, a hierarchy. From the viewpoint of a superior, it's "my subordinates". From the viewpoint of a subordinate, it's "my superior".

From the viewpoint of an organization, it's "my members". From the viewpoint of a member, it's "my organization". From the independent view, it's probably memberships. Or more broadly, an organization.

@ahdinosaur - in https://github.com/openvocab/ovn/blob/master/vocab/Agent.js you put the collection of relationships with the Agent. So, since those relationships are binary, the other Agent in each case would have a similar relationship? How or when would the independent view (overview of relationships in a network, for example) come into LOD? E.g.
http://tip.webfactional.com/accounting/radial-graph/5/

@bobhaugen i was thinking each Agent would reference the same relationship. the relationship has a direction with the isRelated / hasRelated properties. so for a membership between a person and a group, they each reference the same relationship, where isRelated points to the person who is a member and hasRelated points to the group who has a member.

@ahdinosaur - yeah, it's clearly the same relationship from an independent view. Like it is the same order.

In LOD, does the relationship itself have an independent URI? (You can tell I am still a noob...) And if it does have its own URI, what domain?

[edited] Mikey proposes what I think is a pretty good solution: each end of a reciprocal relationship lives in that end's domain and has a link to the other end. https://github.com/openvocab/ovn/issues/3

@paulmackay1 sorry, I meant front ends , designed and integrated form interfaces

@elfpavlik @tiborkatelbach @bobhaugen @ahdinosaur @paulmackay1 @carolinesmalley and anyone else I missed:

A number of us were feeling the need to coordinate the LOD efforts, which necessarily involve the open vocab efforts too. We had a couple online meetings, then things have dropped off.

I'd like to suggest we get going again, and make sure the various efforts are coordinated. At the last meeting, someone (Elf?) suggested we create 2 tracks, one for the technical discussions and one more for the basis of unity for the work and more theoretical aspects. I'm proposing starting up the technical track.

The agenda item I am interested in is defining how we will coordinate our efforts in each of the various areas of LOD definition. Sub-groups meeting? Online docs? Etc.?

If you are interested, you could respond here, add to the agenda if you like, and I will set up a doodle so we can figure out a time.

@lynnfoster count me in for the LOD technical track. :)

Hi Lynn and all I've just been swamped with work at the moment
wishing things will calm down to try and organize a new building commons meetup
don't worry I'm reading all the messages and still in the same mojo
cheers

2014-11-13 1:35 GMT+04:00 Mikey Williams (Loomio) :

@lynnfoster count me in for the LOD technical track. :)

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Ditto on @ahdinosaur ! Eric (programmer) will do what he can to be there as well. Trusting the timing and thanks @lynnfoster for bringing it up.

Apologies for double posting. I hope to plug into some of the activity going on here. I'm hoping to have sort of animation that presents how such hypothetical software would behave. I might have taken a bit of a different direction since I went from research to wire frame. Anyways, here is a link to one such wire frame http://bshambaugh.org/eispp/EISPP_directional_graph_2fresnel_gss_edit_anode6_2.pdf and the research that led to it http://adistributedeconomy.blogspot.com/ and http://bshambaugh.org/Master_17.html with thanks to a lot of people.

@brentshambaugh - I'll be interested in where you want to plug in, given your wide range of ideas.

To all those interested, there will be a hangout today regarding Portable Linked Profiles ... https://plus.google.com/events/c4udh8inejpjmb0ed6e648d96tc?authkey=CNqe49nRws7sDA

Also see a related Trello card.

@jonrichter @elfpavlik i love what's happening in Portable Linked Profiles, but not sure i can make the next meeting as i'll be asleep. i'd love to participate in the PLP project and attend future hangouts, y'all are doing really great work developing an open app ecosysem. :)

There is so much awesome work going on in the world!
PLP and all of its related activities is part of it.

How to keep up? How to comprehend? Impossible! (For me, anyway.) Got 4 other research topics floating in my head today, plus code to write, plus neighborhood events, homestead work...

I guess, keep digging (a tunnel, not a hole, I hope)...and catch up where we link up.

@jonrichter I'll plan on attending the PLP gathering, thanks much for extending the invitation! I probably won't have much to offer, but would like to keep up with where you all are going.

@lynnfoster That was less an extension that had to be granted than the mere try to keep strengthening our loose ties to become strong links.

@jonrichter Yes, exactly, it takes some thoughtful conscious effort to overcome the centrifugal force. :)

Mikorizal will be able to participate more concretely at some point, first step perhaps as a test case to interface the Agent in NRP using the LOD format that is being developed.

@lynnfoster The next video call has been scheduled for next wednesday, 4pm CET : https://plus.google.com/u/0/events/cker4r5vfvmg2lu2n9100j6imm0?authkey=CPD-zJ3Khv7orQE

Dan Scott says:

I disagree with +Roy Tennant 's assertion that WorldCat's publishing of schema.org data was a "BOOM. Done." moment for library discoverability.

Because WorldCat records ultimately cannot enable a search engine to satisfy a user's research interest (due to the lack of connection between the bibliographic data and the availability of the actual resources to the user), I believe that search engines have no incentive to rank WorldCat records highly--let alone the library that wants their holdings to be found and believes that exposing their holdings in WorldCat will be enough.

Same will be true of all material resources.

Really glad I found this thread. Some contributors to Seltzer CRM (tool for organizing members of cooperatives) want to add REST endpoints, and I've suggested JSON-LD. I'm hoping that will make it easier to be interoperable with other software.

Is there current work I should be aware of? JSON-LD contexts that might be useful? Examples of RESTful JSON-LD?

Hi @edwardlplatt you can check out https://github.com/openvocab for our work-in-progress contexts. The PLP project https://github.com/hackers4peace/plp-docs has some live contexts which we eventually want to align with.
Also the Popolo project has some good docs.

@bobhaugen had Skype call with Michel Bauwens today.

He suggested I ask if you can join us on the panel: ref. your work in building value equation for Sensorica. @lynnfoster and others: hope you can make it too! https://plus.google.com/u/0/events/cl69tj842bnes1i08b3sqc585uk

Just created a wire frame animation for enterprise system for peer production. It is about an hour and a half, but call it an hour without references. http://bshambaugh.org/eispp/

@carolinesmalley - thank you very much for the invitation to that panel. As I explained in an email, I don't think I have very much useful to say about reputations or currencies, so I will watch the recorded conversation rather than participate.

While Sensorica wants their value equation include reputations as a factor, we don't deal with it in our software. Bayle Shanks, an affiliate of Sensorica, is working on a reputation system. He thinks he will get something up and running this year, and we expect Sensorica will want to use it, and we will connect to it. (Maybe using LOD? But we don't know much yet...)

Thanks @bobhaugen
Values Equation you've developed for Sensorica concerns more open development of products and services?
I see 'reputation based' as simply meaning inviting contributors to rate and make comments on any given currency. Look forward to sharing and exploring on Thursday - great that you'll be able to watch - will connect with Bayle. Appreciate the intro!

@carolinesmalley - I also should clarify the credits for the value equation: it was conceived and conceptually designed by Tiberius Brastaviceanu and technically designed and mostly coded by @lynnfoster . I just helped with some of the coding and testing.

thanks Bob - appreciated!

@edwardlplatt just had a quick play with http://demo.seltzercrm.org/ - nice simple system :)

I note that users can be "voting" or not... but where/ how do users use those voting rights? ... I guess one day perhaps that could link into a loomio group!? :)

@josefdaviescoates Thanks! I'm planning to give it an overhaul this July/August and provide RESTful JSON-LD endpoints, so interoperability is a big goal! The voting feature was just used as a filter for creating rosters of voting members.

I just came across JSON API, which aims to standardize JSON/REST APIs and is compatible with JSON-LD. Good folks are working on it. Link added at the top.

@edwardlplatt - thanks for the news about JSON API. It would be interesting to see how some existing JSON-LD examples would work if they tried to follow the JSON API requirements and recommendations (or what contortions would they need to do). @elfpavlik ?

We'll be using Django REST Framework for our (still mythical) API, and DRF supports JSON API, but DRF does not support JSON-LD as far as I know. (And the JSON API parser says "build status: failing"...)

So I assume we will need to roll our own JSON-LD parser (at least).

I'm not sure JSON API and JSON-LD are completely compatible. JSON API requires the use of id and type, whereas JSON-LD would use @id and @type. Although the JSON API self is really similar to JSON-LD @id I think...

@paulmackay1 - thanks. Wonder where the discrepancies are coming from, and if they are bridgeable.
As always, https://xkcd.com/927/

@timothyholborn posted a link to your issue in this Value Flows comment.

@paulmackay1 and others are working on a waste management vocab which might overlap. (Or not...)