Loomio
Tue 23 Jul 2019 4:41PM

Video

D DaveDarby Public Seen by 24

Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7C-bLE1w_0&feature=youtu.be

It’s great – it feels like a big leap forward, along with the directory, and the jump in connections we’ve made with good people recently.

But I think the script is something that needs to be done collaboratively. It’s vitally important if it’s going to be front and centre on the website, which I think it should be. It opens with talk about interest-free loans and profits, which sounds too dodgy to start with imho. I want people to see it immediately as a trading system, not a loan system; and profit is a word I think we should avoid because of its (deserved) association with extraction. It’s a word that will put off the early adopters we want to attract.

Saying that it helps build small businesses and community – great. I think this is how we should start – by saying that big changes are coming in the money system – LibraCoin, crypto etc. (or just complete crash). But mutual credit is the only one that’s good for small businesses and communities.

Then go into a very simple explanation of how it works.

The explanation of the directory is good, and I really liked the ‘it’s not a crypto’ and building trust rather than trustless blockchain.

Wir and Sardex - great. We’re a co-op – great.

Plus I think we should be saying ‘free software’ rather than ‘open source software’ - or at least ‘free and open source software’. I interviewed Micky Metts recently, one of the authors of ‘Ours to Hack and to Own’ - she was saying how important this disctinction is. Richard Stallman, founder of the the Free Software Foundation – https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html

And here’s another – https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/Free-vs-Open-Source-Software

We have to be sure we’re supporting the right people and making the right alliances.

But I think the crucial thing missing is that all the credits have to equal all the debits, even if it’s a global system. So (and I don’t mind how we say this, as long as we say it), that means that there isn’t any value sitting there in the system, waiting to be extracted. Dil says, rightly, that there is some extraction in terms of transaction fees - but that’s not like capitalist extraction. And Oli says, rightly, that mutual credit can’t prevent extraction from communities as long as there are still banks and corporations - but mutual credit isn’t part of the conveyor belt moving wealth from communities all over the world into tax havens and into political corruption. This is what made the penny drop for me, that this is a world-changing idea, after reading Tom’s book and Matthew’s white paper – and I could see it drop for other people at the Finance Lab and Extinction Rebellion.

The rest is brilliant.

Could do with a female voice-over – but not essential.

THG

Thomas H Greco Jr Tue 23 Jul 2019 9:13PM

I made my remarks in an email to Oli. Here they are for the record.
Bravo!
That video is very well done.
There are however a couple technical details that seem to me a bit off.
At the very beginning, "...a way for businesses to access interest-free loans...," jars me a bit.
Of course, MC does not loan anything, it simply provides a "space" within which buyers and sellers can find one another to transact trades. That "space" is not physical, but temporal and social: buy now, reciprocate later (temporal), and buy from one, sell to another (social).
My proposal is to substitute "interest-free credit" for "interest-free loans."
By the way, banks do not lend anything either, but they want us to think they do. In effect, they provide credit clearing services but charge interest on negative balances.

At 0:39 "...the more you offer in trade, the higher your credit limit...," isn't quite accurate.
In my view, the primary factor in the credit allocation algorithm should be the amount of value, not just "offered," but actually sold and delivered to members in the network.
My proposal is to substitute for the quoted phrase, "the more you sell to members of the network, the higher your credit limit."

I very much like the statement that "Mutual credit is the antithesis of blockchain because it builds trust instead of replacing trust with technology."

Finally, I think we need to give due consideration to Nick Brown's caveats about open source software.

Thanks for your good work.
Tom

HB

Hugh Barnard Wed 24 Jul 2019 7:00AM

Thanks I've tweeted the video link and will do so again in a while. It's a continual surprise (to me) how few people know/understand it. Something useful, I believe would be some 'do you want to know more?' links probably underneath the video for people that wanted to dig further into it. I 'discovered' it in about 2003 via the entry for LETS in the Encyclopedia of Social Inventions, then met Michael Linton in about 2005.

M

mike_hales Wed 24 Jul 2019 8:49AM

Yes, the difference between loan and credit is major, and should be 100% clear. Yes free rather than open software - the most radical way of stating this seems to be ‘free-libre’ as distinct from free-lunch (these terms are a bit klunky but the politics is important). There’s good energy in OCN development at the moment, keep it up :slight_smile:

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 26 Jul 2019 12:25PM

@thomashgrecojr

I think we need to give due consideration to Nick Brown’s caveats about open source software.

May I ask, what are Nick Brown's caveats?

OS

Oli SB Fri 26 Jul 2019 1:21PM

i'd like to know that too - not sure exactly what you / he are suggesting @thomashgrecojr ?

THG

Thomas H Greco Jr Fri 26 Jul 2019 3:05PM

I'm referring to Nick's article at https://nextbillion.net/payment-fraud-and-mojaloop/, which was the subject of an email exchange. I copied Oli and others. Here's the pertinent excerpt:

The Dangers of Open Source

With the stakes this high, and the cost of failure this potentially catastrophic, it’s essential for payments providers in emerging markets to act with extreme caution when implementing interoperability. And this can impact the decisions they make throughout the process.

For instance, there are incredible benefits to using “open source” code. The sharing of technology reduces the cost of adoption, and the sharing of experiences, enhancements and fixes reduces the individual costs of maintaining systems.

However, financial payment processing is not the right industry for open source approaches, especially if it involves interoperability. It encourages those with insufficient applicable experience to enter an industry they do not fully understand.

Think like a criminal organization that has been involved in large-scale payment fraud for decades. With their years of experience, having access to the core code makes it easy for them to identify existing security holes. In addition, the very nature of open source software allows them to introduce new security holes disguised as enhancements or fixes, with the intention of exploiting those holes several years in the future with massive attacks.

OS

Oli SB Fri 26 Jul 2019 3:18PM

interesting - and important points. Don't think we need to go there in the video tho. But I do question the wisdom of sharing MC source code openly, for those reasons, and because others might take what we have built and exploit it for profit (as has happened many times to previous open source projects). It is for this reason that I suggest we use a PPL and keep the source code closed but for free available "on application" to suitably cooperative / non-profit / values aligned Orgs: http://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Peer_Production_License

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 26 Jul 2019 3:24PM

Bruce Schneier, who knows more about security than most people in the world, disagrees: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2011/06/open-source_sof.html

He thinks that the code needs to be bullet-proof no matter how much people know about it, and the way to get there is by collaboration among security researchers and coders.

If the code has holes, don't think that hackers can't find them just because you did not publish your source.

BH

Bob Haugen Fri 26 Jul 2019 5:35PM

TL;DR:
https://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram/archives/1999/0915.html#OpenSourceandSecurity

In the cryptography world, we consider open source necessary for good security; we have for decades. Public security is always more secure than proprietary security. It's true for cryptographic algorithms, security protocols, and security source code. For us, open source isn't just a business model; it's smart engineering practice.

THG

Thomas H Greco Jr Fri 26 Jul 2019 6:15PM

I'm not lobbying one way or the other, just sharing information. I yield to the wisdom of the software experts in the group.

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